Forgiving your brother

I was having this discussion with a brother in my Church. I am more and more leading towards this belief now.

Jesus commanded us to forgive our brothers and sisters in Christ (other believes), only when they repent.

Luke 17:3 - If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, 4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.

Now if a brother is unwilling to repent then?

Matthew 18:15 - Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the [n]testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

The above verse is not something that we can do if we want, it is something that we are commanded to do. So if a brother sins against us we are commanded to go and confront him. We are not supposed to just forgive and forget. We are not even supposed to forgive him/her.

But if it is an unbeliever then we are supposed to forgive them without any requirement for them to repent, because they do not know what they are doing, they are in darkness. Jesus himself forgave those who crucified him saying they did not know what they were doing.

We are commanded to over our brothers and sisters more than our love for neighbors (John 13:24). At the same time we are commanded to forgive our brothers only if they repent, else we need to confornt them for their sins against us.

If there are people who agree with this then I have more questions in the line of such thinking.

Sree,

I see where you are going with this; however, forgiveness is not commanded, ONLY, upon repentance. There are plenty of other Scriptures that command you to forgive, even if the offender has not repented.

Matthew 6:12-15, 18:21-35, Luke 6:37, Luke 23:34 (Jesus forgave and no one repented), and that isn't even an exhaustive list.

You should deal with a sinning brother. That should happen. But if you are dealing with a sinning brother with a heart full of unforgiveness, you are only a servant throttling another saying, "pay me what you owe me!"

Notice in those passages the order of forgiveness--you forgive, the God forgives you.

I just don’t see how I could pray the prayer Christ taught us to pray wholeheartedly or honestly if I held back forgiveness from anyone, brother or unbeliever.

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.”

I would seriously fast and seek our Lord. if I held an elder position, before administering the final steps.

I just don’t see how I could pray the prayer Christ taught us to pray wholeheartedly or honestly if I held back forgiveness from anyone, brother or unbeliever.

"Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.”

I would seriously fast and seek our Lord. if I held an elder position, before administering the final steps.

Very good point brother William.
Disclaimer, I have not completely made my approval of the point of this discussion, but I have started leading towards the point of our discussion. The reason I have posted this here is, I am trying to find reasons to support or against this line of thinking. So all logical discussion is welcome here.

Now I have already thought through our Lord's prayer in connection with forgiveness!

Here is my answer, our Lord thought us to pray this line "forgive our sins as we have forgiven our debtors". So the believers who have repented, I have forgiven them. So we are asking our Lord to forgive us as we have forgiven those who have repented. We too come to our Lord with a repentence. So our Lord, who is our elder brother, will also forgive our sins as we have forgiven the sins of our repented brothers.

The Parable that Jesus told in Matt 18:23, the Master is forgiving the slave when he repents and asks for mercy. The master expects the slave to show the same mercy to his own slave who also asks for mercy but he did not show mercy. So the concept of forgiveness in that parable is to forgive those who ask for forgiveness. The whole parable is an answer that Jesus gave to the question that Peter asked about how to forgive our brothers (Matt 18:21)!

I see where you are going with this; however, forgiveness is not commanded, ONLY, upon repentance. There are plenty of other Scriptures that command you to forgive, even if the offender has not repented.

Notice in those passages the order of forgiveness--you forgive, the God forgives you.

Agreed, our God forgives us when we repent so we too forgive our brothers when they repent. That is th point of Matthew 18:23 parable on forgiveness. To show mercy when our brothers ask for one.

You should deal with a sinning brother. That should happen. But if you are dealing with a sinning brother with a heart full of unforgiveness, you are only a servant throttling another saying, "pay me what you owe me!"

Very good point. The example that came to our mind is how Paul is dealing with the brother who lived in Adultery in the church of Corinthians. In 1 Cor 5, he judged him already and put him out of Church into the hands of Satan.

3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and [d]I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 I have decided [e]to turn such a person over to Satan for the destruction of his [f]body, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the [g]Lord.

This believer sinned against the Church by bringing a bad reputation to the Church. So here Paul clearly judged the brother and not forgiven him. He is also not asking the Church to forgive him. How do I know he is not asking the Church to forgive him? Answer is in 2 Cor 2:7.

so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him.

Paul is asking the Church to forgive this brother because he has repented from his sins. So in the first letter he judged him but in the 2nd letter he is appealing to forgive him as he has repented. So no forgiveness until he repents. He did not ask the Church to confront him with forgiveness!

Again I am inviting a fruitful discussion here, I am still not made up my mind, but willing to listen to all possible arguments for and against this topic.

I think the problem here is how we are defining what forgiveness is.

So, sree, what does "forgiveness" mean regarding one person to another?

Thanks!

//The above verse is not something that we can do if we want, it is something that we are commanded to do. So if a brother sins against us we are commanded to go and confront him. We are not supposed to just forgive and forget. We are not even supposed to forgive him/her.//

We are not to be offended in the first place. Thus there is nothing to forgive.

https://www.thenarrowpath.com/audio/topical-lectures/individual-topical-teachings/06_0000_Refuse_to_be_Offended.mp3

lol....I remember this discussion. If my brother punches me in the face and I say "I am not offended" and let him continue doing that, then there is a problem. There is a problem with him and a problem with me.

Sree is right that we need to confront the brother for things like that.

Now, Biblically, the principle is "love covers a multitude of sins." I don't correct every mistake everyone does--especially unintentional ones--because I love them and I want to show grace and mercy. If a brother does offend me (which happens), then I need to address it with them. Elsewise, a root of bitterness will form.

There also the principle of "why not rather be wronged" given by Paul--regarding suing other believers before unbelievers.

These principles take wisdom to apply.

Yet:

I have a feeling the reason why so little care and concern is given by the church as a whole to people aborting their children, the prevelance of pornography in our country, the incredibly prominent sex-trafficking industry in our country, the vulgar humor that is allowed, the sex-crazed TV shows, the horrifically promiscuous education given to children, the codification of no-fault divorce, the materialism, etc, etc, etc that we see even in our own midst is because a bunch of Christians are walking around "not offended."

I think we need to be more offended at these things.

Being offended is not on the same par as physical attack.

Being offended is illogical. If the offense was unintended, then why in the world should you be offended? If the offense IS intended, why give the offender the satisfaction of what they are looking for?

I am trying to think if Jesus ever showed offense for something done or said to Him. He defended His Father’s honor on occasion but I think he took personal offenses with a grain of salt- even on the cross.

Jesus usually was the one doing the offending! HAHA

Yes those Pharisees and Sadducees were so touchy.

Hello Sree,

Thanks for the stimulating question. Have you considered the verse in Mark where Jesus said "and if you stand praying and remember that you have something against your brother, forgive."?

As I was pondering the thread, this verse came to mind and I do not think it has been considered yet, unless I overlooked it.

mak

the verse is Mark 11:25
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins

Thanks for the stimulating question. Have you considered the verse in Mark where Jesus said "and if you stand praying and remember that you have something against your brother, forgive."?

As I was pondering the thread, this verse came to mind and I do not think it has been considered yet, unless I overlooked it.

I belive the base verse is Matt 5:23 - 23 Therefore, if you are presenting your [n]offering at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [o]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your [p]offering.

So here Jesus is telling us to reconcile with our brother if we know that he has been offended by us. So this is the responsibility of every believer to make sure they do not offend their fellow brothers. A brother who missed this opportunity and has willfully offended his fellow brother is living in Sin. Instead of just forgiving him plainly we are commanded to confront him first. The order is so clearl in Luke 17.

Luke 17 - 3:- 3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

We are to forgive our brothers only when they repent. So there is no forgiving while we rebuke them.

We all see this as a harsh treatment of a fellow brother by not forgiving them. But see this way, we are more concerned about their eternal well being than their earthly rebuke. Hence we are prepared to rebuke our brother of their sins and then forgive them when they repent. We are actually showing our brother that they have missed to obey Mattew 5:23, hence they cannot come into the presence of God.

Mark 11:25, is also in the same context as how our father in heaven forgives us. He forgives us when we repent, so we should also be willing to forgive our brothers when they repent.

Dear Sree,

It seems that you are almost persuaded already, which is not an issue with me at all.

When I read Jesus’s words in Mark 11:25 -I see that I am to forgive on the spot anything I have against anyone” . I certainly appreciate the relationship you have brought forth between repentance and forgiveness.

I will take Jesus at His words that if while I am praying, anything that comes to my mind about anyone who has sinned against me in any way - I am to forgive them before I continue in prayer.

That is how I understand our Lord’s words spoken here since he is speaking about the prayer of faith.

Mak

I think I am in agreement with Mak.

Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves. Jesus did not require the soldiers crucifying him to repent before he forgave them.

Requiring repentance seems to obviate the need to forgive. I mean if someone comes back crawling with tears saying they are sorry it would take a monstrous person to not forgive them.

It is tougher to forgive before there is any repentance. Even tougher is not to be offended in the first place.

Sree, you seem to be conflating forgiveness and fellowship. I can forgive an unrepentant offender but that does not mean I must fellowship with him until he changes his ways.

Havok wrote:
//I have a feeling the reason why so little care and concern is given by the church as a whole to people aborting their children, the prevelance of pornography in our country, the incredibly prominent sex-trafficking industry in our country, the vulgar humor that is allowed, the sex-crazed TV shows, the horrifically promiscuous education given to children, the codification of no-fault divorce, the materialism, etc, etc, etc that we see even in our own midst is because a bunch of Christians are walking around "not offended."

I think we need to be more offended at these things.//

I am talking about personal offenses, not the broad evil at large in the world. It is obvious we are to hate evil.

Sree,

I think Mark 11:25, the way that David acted toward Saul, and even several of the Psalms are proof in the pudding that God expects us to forgive, even without repentance on the other party's side.

Let me ask you this: what would happen if the brother never repented and you never saw them again? Do you get to harbor unforgiveness in your heart for all of eternity? Do you get to remain angry at them forever? I think the unanimous testimony of Scriptures answers that.

I mean think about this: how many times have people on sermon index offended one another, unintentionally? It's happened to me. I have forgiven. I thank God that, it seems, if I have offended anyone, they've forgiven me.

Let me ask you this: what would happen if the brother never repented and you never saw them again? Do you get to harbor unforgiveness in your heart for all of eternity? Do you get to remain angry at them forever? I think the unanimous testimony of Scriptures answers that.

You and I and most posters here agree that we are commanded to confornt our brothers when they sin against us. The order of this conforting in Luke 17:4 is clearly saying to forgive only when the brother repents. If he does not repent then he is like an unbeliever to me, I forgive him just like how I forgive any unbeliever who has sinned against me but I do not consider him a brother. In the context of the Church, such a person is put out.

As person who came to Jesus from another faith, I have sufferred perseuction from the hands of unbelievers. But God's grace, I was able to forgive them all instantenously, like how Jesus forgave those Romans who crucified him. But a brother who is doing evil to us is different.

The subject of this post is forgiving our brothers not unbelievers so we cannot bring verses into picture where Jesus spoke about forgiveness in general. When it comes to forgiving our brothers who sinned against us, Jesus is clearly asking us to forgive only when they repent.

Edited out everything that was very pointed and argumentative, which was the whole post.

Sree,

If you've already read my previous post, I do apologize. Let me ask you to read this article:

https://www.gotquestions.org/withholding-forgiveness.html

And see if you agree with what it is saying. If it is, I can continue this discussion, now having common definitions.

Thanks

I think the problem here is how we are defining what forgiveness is.

So, sree, what does "forgiveness" mean regarding one person to another?

This is a very good question. I am still thinking how best I can answer this question.

Heb 8:12 - For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,
And their sins I will no longer remember

God cannot forget our sins, nor can we forget the sins that people did against us. But when God forgives our sins, he chooses not to remember our sins. He looks at us as if we have never sinned (Justification).

So if we are to forgive a brother who has hurt us then we should choose not to remember their sins against us. If we are choosing not to remember them then how can we confront them of their sins against us like how Jesus commanded us in Luke 17:4 and in Matthew 18?

Like I said before we see the condition of unforgiveness as a negative thing alone. See the positive side of it, you are able to win a brother who has sinned against you. If he never repents he is going to suffer loss. So it is better to confront them than just trying to be mister nice guy!