TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Who today holds TRUTH in UNRIGHTEOUSNESS? 99% of what is called "christianity" or "church"!! That's who!!!

"Unrighteousness" abounds in man's "church" (not to be confused with HIS body that lives in new creation life), and few, very few are objecting. These who do, are called heretics. The "church" calls right wrong, and wrong right. Then they parade this charade as "truth"? YES THEY DO.

When a man who is "honestly mistaken" hears the TRUTH, he/she is either no longer mistaken, or they cease to be honest.

And so it is with "evangelicals" today. All denominations are in error, because they all cause "division". Selah. Paul said.....

Rom_16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

What part of "avoid them" don't church folks understand?

2 Timothy 3
Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

3 But understand this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress and trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear].
2 For people will be lovers of self and [utterly] self-centered, lovers of money and aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud and arrogant and contemptuous boasters. They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy and profane.
3 [They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate and loose in morals and conduct, uncontrolled and fierce, haters of good.
4 [They will be] treacherous [betrayers], rash, [and] inflated with self-conceit. [They will be] lovers of sensual pleasures and vain amusements more than and rather than lovers of God.
5 For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny and reject and are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].

There it is again. These 5 verses and so many more, describe 99% of what is called "christian church" today. AVOID ALL SUCH PEOPLE.

Do you? Well do you? If you do not turn from them, you are not HOLY (SEPARATE). Without holiness, no man will see YEHOVAH. So why are you yet going through the motions of mundane church? Come out from among them and be ye separate!

Repent, or perish!

What local congregation or home group do you participate in Onesimus? Who do you go to church (the real church) with?

Dear Lahry,

It appears you have failed to see an important element in the pursuit of holiness that I missed in my own pursuit of it, for you left out an equally important condition that you did not even bother to notice.

The last scripture you quoted has two elements to pursue, yet you did not even give the FIRST in order an honorable mention.

We are to PURSUE PEACE WITH ALL MEN and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.

Many brothers trample upon the first requirement in their zeal for the second - our Lord never did this.

Even to the church of Laodicea - our Lord is standing at the door knocking, asking to be let in - not standing outside yelling for everyone to get out.

Mak

Is it possible Onesimus for us to know who you fellowship with on a regular basis?

It is easy to speak like this, on a forum when there is no accountability. Word of caution in declaring what Christ redeemed as "99% wrong.

Proverbs 18:1-2
English Standard Version

18 Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire;
he breaks out against all sound judgment.
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding,
but only in expressing his opinion.

Barnabas was known as the "son of encouragement.”

Our friend Lahry is the son of discouragement.

"Where always is heard, a discouraging word
and the skies are all cloudy all day.”

Let’s remember our Lord’s example. He chose the two "sons of thunder” as His apostles. It is easier to cool down a zealot than to warm up a corpse.

Mak

And let us not forget our beloved Paul was once a blasphemer and a violent man seeking to tear the church apart. But our Lord had other plans and we are all blessed that He did

makrothumia,

True, he did have two close disciples dubbed the "Sons of Thunder," and Jesus rebuked them. Also, true that it is easier to cool down a zealot than warm up a corpse, but the Scripture is clear, Desire without knowledge is not good, and whoever makes haste with his feet misses his way. (Prv 19:2)

Lastly, Paul may have been a Pharisee, but he had genuine repentance and even said, "And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches" (2 Cor 11:28). He loved Christ; he planted churches in his conversion by no means was tearing the church apart or deeming 99% of it false. Deeming 99% of the church as false and is a direct attack of the doctrine of atonement, justification and the doctrine of sanctification. Furthermore, it is a direct attack against what Christ established. If the original poster can take time to study and agree to a mutually open, respectful dialogue, I would be more than happy to set up a zoom discussion to highlight the errors and seriousness of some of the remarks made not only in this post but in others.

In His Grace,
Steve (Aka - simple servant)

Thank you Steve,

Of course - this would be my hope. I just want to remember that space that allows for the opportunity.

Mak

Even to the church of Laodicea - our Lord is standing at the door knocking, asking to be let in - not standing outside yelling for everyone to get out.

Very good point. All these calling to come out of Church is not from God. Babylon that Jesus calls us to come out of is not any particular denomination or any local church. It is a system of glorifying self instead of Christ. We are called to come out of this Babylon system.

Here is brother Zac Poonen's explanation of Babylon and what it takes to come out of her -
Babylon originated with the tower of Babel, which was built according to man's plan, in man's strength and for man's glory. "They said to one another (FROM MAN), 'Let us build for ourselves a city (THROUGH MAN) and make for ourselves a name (TO MAN)" (Gen. 11:3,4). Years later, King Nebuchadnezzar, having built the great city of Babylon, capital of his great world empire, looked out one day over the city and spoke in the same way: "Is this not Babylon the great, which I myself have built (FROM MAN)..... by the might of my power (THROUGH MAN)..... for the glory of my majesty (TO MAN)" (Dan. 4:30). The tower of Babel ended in judgment. Nebuchadnezzar's boast also brought down on him the immediate judgment of God (Dan. 4:31-33). The final end of all that has been produced by human wisdom and human power for man's glory will also be judgment by God. That which is done through human soul-power will perish, even if it is called 'Christian work'. "The wide walls of Babylon shall be leveled to the ground and her high gates shall be burned; THE BUILDERS ('Christian' workers?) FROM MANY LANDS HAVE WORKED IN VAIN - THEIR WORK SHALL BE DESTROYED BY FIRE" (Jer. 51:58-Living).

The distinctive feature of Jerusalem is holiness. It is called "the HOLY City" (Rev. 21:2). Babylon however, stands out for its greatness. It is called "the GREAT city" (Rev. 18:10). It is called "great", eleven times in Revelation. Those who live in true holiness, in obedience to God and have partaken of the nature of Christ by grace through faith, are built together into Jerusalem; whereas those who are looking for greatness here on earth (the testimony and the honour of men) are built into Babylon. For nineteen hundred years, the call has been coming to God's people, "Come out of her (Babylon) MY PEOPLE; do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her" (Rev. 18:4-Living).

As far as the percentage goes O.P. is not alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSDuBu4J3tI

Now I don't agree with all of Leonard Ravenhill's viewpoints. For example he had a old testament mentality of the prophet which doesn't translate exactly the same in the new covenant. Ravenhill was a Sinai guy primarily. Anyway my own experience is that very few in the churches that I've been in are saved. I think I posted in the bible reading thread that I did a poll of my own on how many show interest in the bible. It was close to 0% or 0%. If I had looked at every member in all the churches I've been in it probably would have been 5-10% at best. Just to clarify here this is my experience. Others experience may be different. I live in a liberal state so it may be vastly different from a conservative state/place.

To have no interest in the bible it would be safe to conclude that such persons are unsaved. See 1 Peter 2. Then we have to deal with the emergent church, man centered preaching (Babylon religion -> self promotion), false gospels, etc. There may be saved people in such places who are just temporarily led astray but realistically how much would that be?

Also I believe Paul Washer, R.C. Sproul, and Billy Graham have also made similar statements about the high percentage of unsaved people in the churches. Don't quote me on that I believe I had heard them say something of that nature.

When unsaved people become the majority in a church and gain control of a church would that church then become a false church?

Jeremiah 7 comes to mind. The temple there was once a place of true worship but became corrupted.

I think the issue here may be reforming vs coming out. When do you reform and when do you come out? I think that would be a good discussion.

2 Timothy 2:19

Yet God's solid foundation stands unmoved, bearing this inscription, "The Lord knows those who really belong to Him." And this also, "Let every one who names the Name of the Lord renounce all wickedness."

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"There are stars set in the heavens by the hand of God, whose light has never reached the eye of man; gems lie covered in the dark abysses of earth that have never yet been discovered by the research of man; flowers which have grown in blushing beauty before the sun, that have never been seen by the florist; so there may be Christians, made such by God, who are hidden from the knowledge of this world."
(John Bate)

As I reread your post, our Lord brings the word patience to my mind. As a young Christian I was very zealous for my wife to keep up with where I thought I was in our Lord! My actions, words, lacking agape love, and humility only drove a deeper wedge between us in Christ. So my attempts always backfired. She could not hear from one who honestly lacked love and humility concerning the things of God. Rightly so! Of course I couldn’t see that then.

Reminiscing back, had I been much in prayer with our Heavenly Father back then instead of in hundreds of books, on isms. Perhaps I could had seen what our Lord was doing spiritually in her life, instead of what I seen seemed wrongs. Then we both might had matured faster in Christ?

Like tonight, we had many wonderful conversations with each other. She also really wanted to listen too, and even learned something through God’s Holy Spirit through me! Concerning how me and her have to wait on our Lord for directions in what He wants of us.

Without spending much time in communion with God in three daily, I fear we handle God’s children roughly, and come across as "a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal." I know I did. We don’t realize it, we even think we’re giving our best! However we can only give our best when we are spending much time with our Father and allowing Him to fill us with His love, and the very Words He wants us to say to those we love. Those words could very well be a rebuke however we will only know for sure if we are constantly in communion with our Lord.

Added: if I stopped spending time in prayer with our Heavenly Father, I know I would go right back to being unloving/harsh to her, and the brethren around me I’m called to love sacrificially. We gotta abide in Christ.

Blessings in Christ brethren

Books, knowledge, and other such things are just neutral things in and of themselves. In fact I may be in error just saying that its neutral. Because my understanding is that knowledge is a prerequisite to wisdom. And if you don't have knowledge then how can you have wisdom. And if you don't have wisdom then what is the opposite of wisdom?

The question is not what you did? Its why you did what you did? Its the motive not the thing. Book reading whether its the bible or other books if the motive behind it is to impressive other people and to make selfish gains for oneself then that is bad.

One example, I was in a church where they had three prayer meetings going weekly. The individuals in each of those meetings would not go to the other prayer meetings. So it was basically three groups pitted against each other and they probably had their "leaders" for each of those meetings.

They were all praying. That is a good thing. But why were they praying? That is the real issue.

The same would apply for church splits. I think the verse Steve used from proverbs is a good one. Many splits are because people want to form their own church and steal members away from established churches so they can have power and influence.

Its not the thing its the motive. Is it selfishness or selflessness?