Christisking
Jul 23, 2005
I know this debate can go on forever, but I was just wonder how the majority on this message board think. So who's right Wesley or Calvin?
I know this debate can go on forever, but I was just wonder how the majority on this message board think. So who's right Wesley or Calvin?
I personally believe whatever answers one post here rather you can or not is what their personal religion has taught them, I will say if you can lose your salvation well Jesus you died a horrible death for nothing, the Holy Spirit within me has told me "no" you can't so what do I do fight over the interpreting of the word or listen to what the Holy Spirit within me is telling me, so now we have a power struggle going on is it the word or the Holy Spirit? I will go with both read what I personally understand in the word and listen to the Holy Spirit for conformation.
Paul and John list things which they say are incompatible with inheriting the kingdom of God.1 Corinthians 6: 9 + 10Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived:neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.Revelation 22:14 + 15Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. My question is this: can a person who is saved go back to doing these things, or, if they do them, were they ever saved?I am coming to believe more and more that unless one lives in 1 John 1:7, it is all too possible to lose the whiteness from one's first robe of righteousness. One has to keep it white.1 John 1:6 + 76 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. Matthew 229 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment?And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.14 For many are called, but few chosen.
That depends on how one got saved. When salvation originates from man then it can be lost. It is not true salvation. These people actually put their trust in man, the word of man, and not in God. A lot of our easy believism,ex: just walk to the front, just ask Jesus into your heart, promotes false "salvations". People merely do what they are told, and go through the right words, motions etc. They may believe that they are saved, even feel very saved, but that doesn't make them so. These kind of people will lose their "salvation",they won't stick with Christ when the going gets rough (see the parable of the seeds and the sower) because it was not real in the first place. There are multitudes who fit into this catagory as Jesus pointed out: "Many will say, Lord, Lord (implying a personal relationship), but Jesus will say, 'Depart, I NEVER KNEW you.'" These people trusted in themselves, their works, their OWN salvation. Christ only KNOWS those in whom he dwells. When salvation is genuinely a work of the Spirit, done in the timing of God, empowered by him, resulting in Christ's life living and ruling within, enduring through all, no matter what, to the end, then it is eternal salvation. It can be hard to tell who are saved and who are not. Even Judas fooled the other disciples. Perhaps a better question to investigate would be: what is a true follower of Christ. Look what Christ was like. His followers will grow more and more like him - having their hearts set on Christ, eternity, love etc etc - instead of the temporal things of this life, selfish ambition, self-driven goals etc. If Christlikeness is not evident, then one must not assume salvation.I know what it was like to experience both kinds of salvations, and believe me, there is a very big difference. One is maintained by our natural abilities, and the other is empowered by Christ within. "He must increase, I must decrease." Diane
WOW! What a great answer to a hard question!
I think that the parable of the sower tells all concerning this. When the seed is planted in good soil, it will bear fruit (works), though the sun test it (trial and tribulation). The one who claims Christ, but falls away is the stoney ground convert, who falls away (Hebrews 6) when he is tried. He believed for a while, but this man never departed from iniquity (sin).It is foolish, in my opinion, to believe that God doesn't know who will be in His kingdom in the end, therefore He knows the number of the elect. We, however, deal with others that we cannot know for sure their fate (Judas fooled the 11). So anyone we give the gospel to, who repents, and calls upon the name of the Lord, will be saved. God knew they would, we cannot foreknow, or presently know, except of our own.The one who is God's elect will not fall away. Why would God ever save someone, or choose, elect and predetermine them from the foundation of the world, when they will fall away?Those who fall away, in our eyes, anyway, never received everlasting life. I think I'm like a 3 or 4 point Calvinist, or a backslidden freewiller, or something.
God will never leave you but you can leave him because you have free will. If you go out the door and I call you back you hear me call you back for a while but if you keep walking eventually you get far enough away from me that you can no longer hear me plead with you to come back. This is what happens to people that were at one time saved and yet have come to a place that if you ask them if they believe any longer they will tell you no, they are so far away that they can no longer hear God. They then are in the position to trample the blood of Jesus and crucify him a fresh.The word says to the Christian that if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The opposite is true if we don't. It is very serious to walk in the flesh and resist God's plead with us to repent. For a Christian to not repent is to be nothing more than a religious and self-righteous Pharisee.We have a city of refuge to run to. As long as we stay within the border of that city we are safe. That city is Christ and that avenger is Satan.In Christ,GaryE
Matt 10:39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.Jesus taught in this above verse unless one loses their life for His sake, they cannot enter into eternal life. If one decideds they want to live their life for themselves instead, they cannot enter into eternal life.
..as taught in Hebrews 6 refers to the abandonment of faith in Jesus Christ. As I understand God's Word, this is the only true "backsliding" in the bible. Let's say that you are a jew in Paul's day. You have faith in Jesus as the Messiah. Then you begin to listen to legalists who tell you that you need to be circumcised to be saved, or you need to keep the whole law, or any unconfessed sin will sin you to hell, or Jesus Christ is not really the Messiah. Let's say that you abandon your faith in the finished work of Jesus and look for another Messiah or religion to find peace between you and God. To me, this is backslidding. You won't be any longer concerned with the Holy Spirit's witness, or the concious bothering you. You will go off the deep end in sin and there will not be repentance for you any longer. As believers, we struggle with seperating the old life with the new. What makes it more difficult is that both lives live in the same vessel. The flesh will never be regenerated, never perfected. But that does not give you a license to sin. We walk after the spirit, but not after the flesh. Flesh is still in there trying to get us to appease it. It is very deceptive. I fear it's entrapments much more than being bothered by "evil spirits". My flesh trips me up. But I as a child of God have favor with God (grace)(free gift-unmerited). God sees my flesh as already crucified with Christ. I need to see my life as God sees it, because my perfection, my righteousness, my holiness, my purity are all imputed to me by Jesus Christ shed blood. They are mine because God said they were. He did not say they belonged to my flesh, but to my spirit, the part of me that is eternal. My flesh is destined for the grave, my spirit for eternal life. The heart of my old man is infinitely wicked and ever shall be. But I rule over it by the Spirit of God Who has taken up residence in me. His residency does not make my flesh perfect or eternal, only my spirit. So I am eternally secure in Christ's blood because I have placed 100.0000000000000% of my eternal hope not in me and my works, but in Jesus Christ and His finished work that set me free from my works and gave me rest in Him. Glory to God. I don't have to fret over wicked thoughts that pop into my head, because my salvation does not depend on thinking holy things all the time. My joy does. My peace does. But not my salvation. Thank God, or I would be as lost as can be. But Jesus came to save me from myself. The bible says that He saved me to the uttermost. That is before I was born, or born again, He died for me to save me to the uttermost. Uttermost means that there is nothing else left to be done, but put my faith in what He has already done and let His shed blood save me to the uttermost. Alleluia. I dont' know if that blesses you, but it sure blesses me. Thank You Jesus!Saved by unmerited favor through faith,Lahry
I havent taken the time to read everything here, so perhaps someone else has already voiced this...But I believe nothing can seperate us from God if we are truly saved. Today there are too many false conversions due to easy believism... say a little prayer, hold you under water for 30 seconds... voila, you're saved.Salvation involves repentance. Salvation involves a real knowledge that we have all sinned against a Holy and Righteous God. Jesus talked of seeds being sown on the ground... some fell on rocks, some among weeds... but notice that the minority of them fell on good ground, took root, and grew.So if someone is seemingly walking with God, but falls away... we can probably assume that they never took root. People put on Oscar Award winning performances at being a Christian... but you dont see them when they are alone. Many never read the Word or pray... this we dont see. We only see the smiles and all that.So no, if you are truly saved, you will be walking with God forever. Yes, we stumble and fall... and at times we can even distance ourselves from God... but if you are saved, the Holy Spirit which resides in you will bring you back. Sometimes we have to receive a good beating in order to get us back in line... but God will be faithful to get us back in line.This is how I interpret scripture on this. I'm open to this evolving as I learn more on the topic. This is one of the issues on which I realize there will be grey areas.Krispy
The Word Salvation is such a big word! It means so much more than the salvation from judgment and Hell. A great sermon on Salvation is "So Great a Salvation" by Paris Reidhead. It is one of my favorite sermons. It opened up my understanding to what salvation is and all it entails.But also I would like to quote some scripture. I won’t tell you all what I believe to the question above and the scriptures that I am quoting is not the general view of what I believe.Matthew 18:21Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt. 28"But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!' 29So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses." Luke 9:6262But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." 2 Peter 2:20For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." Jude 5But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.Ezekiel 33:12Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: "The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.' 13When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 17"Yet the children of your people say, "The way of the LORD is not fair.' But it is their way which is not fair! 18When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it.Genesis 19:24Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens. 25So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. 26But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.
Once I fell in love with a girl. My heart was hers. I did everything I could for her. I gave her my all. However, no matter how strong my love, she walked out of my life. When she decided to leave, my love could only let me let her go. God's love is endless. The ultimate test of His love is letting people go when they choose to turn from Him. We have free will. It is by His choice we have free will. It is by our choice as to whether we submit that will to Him and give our love to God (even if He knows what we will do before we do it.)You asked, "Can you lose your salvation?" I get hung up on that word "lose." People lose things without knowing. We lose keys, lose wallets, lose money. Imagine if we lost salvation: "Dang, where did I place my faith? I know it's around here somewhere? Right when I need it most. Jesus is coming and I've lost my faith." How silly is that? Some people get caught up in this thing called "sin." Naturally, it is what keeps us from God, at first anyway. However, God's grace is sufficient, even to save murderers like the apostle Paul. We all know that we are saved by faith, and not by works (not sinning). We must have a desire to repent and turn away from our sins, however, having a desire to not sin, and not sinning, are two different things. I know people who do not want to stop sinning, but they don't sin. Like people who want to speed, but don't because they don't want a ticket. If you can't get into Heaven by works, then how can you get to Hell with works? By this, I am trying to say that you will not lose your salvation from sinning. It has nothing to do with sin. It has everything to do with our heart.Our heart is what loves. Love is nothing more than a will. To love someone is to have a will toward them. I love my fiance and so my will is toward her.God judges by the heart. He looks at the condition of the heart. When we are saved, we are transformed into new creations by circumcision of the heart. We get a heart transplant. Jesus steps in and replaces our old crummy heart with Himself. Is it possible to lose our faith? Not unwillingly and certainly not by sinning. Sin was nailed to the cross with Christ. We have been redeemed by Christ.Rather, if it is possible to lose our faith after we are saved, it is only by our direct will. This would be a blantant repeal. It would be like getting a gift at Christmas, and taking it back for a full refund, even though you asked for it. In a previous post, someone said something to the effect, "Why would God save someone in the first place if He knew this person would only take it back later?"Simply because God cannot reject anyone who comes to Him. He cannot reject anyone even if He knows this person will only turn away from Him later. (Look at the Israelites. He knew they would turn away from Him. Did He not give them the promise first?)We must also remember this: We are not in Heaven yet. We have not been judged yet. We are banking on a promise that has yet to be fullfilled. This means that if we want, we can reject God and tell Him to stuff His promise in the Holy Land. If a person decides they don't want to be saved anymore, this doesn't change God's promise or His love. Both are still the same. He still keeps His promise and still gives His love. However, that person walked away from God, much like the girl I loved walked away from me. I had to respect her out of my love for her. Likewise, God would have to respect this person because He loves them enough to let them go.
This is to beenblake:Your message was the first & only message I've read thusfar in yet another salvation forum. And it has been the best thusfar.It really bothers me how people can put sin over God's grace. I don't understand this. There will be an end to sin. There is no end to Abba's grace. Everyone is so caught up on acts of sin that they believe that sin can separate them from the love that is in Christ Jesus.Nothing is greater than love. The love of God.Brennan Manning once said,"God's love is based on nothing, and the fact that it is based on nothing makes us secure. Were it based on anything we do, and that "anything" were to collapse, then God's love would crumble as well. But with God of Jesus no such thing can possibly happen. People who realize this can live freely and to the fullest. Remember Atlas, who carries the world? We have Christian Atlases who mistakenly carry the burden of trying to deserve God's love. Even the mere watching of this lifestyle is depressing. I'd like to say to Atlas (and so would I! lol): Put that globe down & dance on it. That is why God made it!" And to these weary Christian Atlases: "Lay down your load and build your life on God's love." We don't have to earn this love; neither do we have to support it. It is a free gift. Jesus calls out: "Come to Me, all you Atlases who are weary and find life burdensome, and I will refresh you."*sighs*See I cannot give myself, sin, or any other creation, in either the heavens or the earth, enough power over God's love. He will draw a backslider back. He will deliver us from sin. He will be WHO HE SAYS HE IS!In Christ Jesus
I liked you post a lot, except for the part where you said we have not yet been judged. I have to say that the bible says that those who believe have passed from judgement into life. We will only be judged for what was done in obedience to the leading of the Holy Spirit and rewarded for the same. We will not stand with the lost at the great White Throne Judgement. But you are so correct in that our salvation relies totally on the shed blood of Jesus Christ or we are all hopelessly lost. Works will never find favor with God for salvation. But, regardless of how weak my spine is, His grace is sufficient, as long as my hope is totally in Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I am eternally secure in Christ Jesus. Alleluia.rejoicing with Him,Lahry
Yes, good post beenblake.It is true, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, but that verse says nothing about once saved always saved.Doesn't the Bible say: "For God so loved the world"? If then you are basing your salvation simply on the love of God then we must assume the entire world is saved. My point is, it isn't God's love that saves us... it is the Blood of Christ, made possible BY the love of God, which each and every one of us must accept. See the difference?In Christ's love and under His Blood,-Eli
I'm loving the flow of this thread... Bravo beenblake! Also Lahry, you gave a great encore!Praise God!MC
The apostle John answered the question already, and it behooves us to hear him."They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." - 1 John 2:19He doesn't say: they went out from us because they fell from grace.He doesn't say they went out from us because they chose to walk away from God's love.etc.The reason they did not remain in the faith is because no matter what they looked like on the outside - and no matter how long they wore that facade - the reality was they were never saved in the first place.They haven't lost their salvation - they demonstrated that what appeared to be salvation was in fact a counterfeit - and the fact that they walked away from it testifies that this is true.I wholeheartedly believe that people can walk away from their "faith" – but those who can walk away from their faith do not have “genuine saving faith” but a false and ineffective faith that was illegitimate from it’s inception and must not be confused with the genuine faith that is held by God’s elect children. Judas did not "lose his salvation" – his betrayal only revealed the truth about his “faith” - that it was not the kind that came from God as a free irrevocable gift, but rather was carnal and counterfeit – and his fall demonstrated that in exactly the way John describes. Dan/\\/\\/\\
I taught a Bible study once in whice there was a mixture of people on either side. Being apart of the Assemblies of God denomination I have the interpretation that one can lose ones salvation, but I also saw the validity of the argument that one who lost it only lost what they "appeared" to have. We were able to find common ground with my suggestion that those who held to the opposite opinion interpret any statements I made to the loss of salvation as though that person never was really saved.I can see that while a person who falls away may have followed, even faithfully, and for a while was a true believer from a temporal standpoint, however from an eternal standpoint they were never really a follower.
Hmmm..Interesting discussion here. I didn't get to read every post here so forgive me if i repeat some things but...Some things I wanted to point out...the term "losing" your salvation is a manmade term and i think it implies simply not being saved anymore...in other words..I don't think you can "lose" it as in "where did it go?"..but I do belive a person can conciously reject God. Another thing...the romans verse...i don't think salvation has anything to do with separating us from God's love...he loves everyone regardless if they are saved or not...I don't think the text really gets specific there...even contextually speaking.Also...I wud not be so harsh as to say that people were never really saved if they fall away (that verse about them leaving...a lot of interpretation can be used there..too long to get into..but ask if u wanna know..lol)...I know some people that i know were genuinely saved...u really can't fake that sort of thing...and then they turned away from God becas of certain things that happened in their lives.Interesting side note...I know people on both sides of this issue who stick to the extremes. Either they are so afraid of going to hell that they become legalistsic or they are in constant doubt of their own salvation...both are sad ways to live I think....that's just my two cents!!
Dear friends,I have always found it extremely useful to consider these great questions, whatever they may be, in the light of the Old Testament; and particularly in the light of Israel's history.You all know that a very great part of the Old Testament is typological in nature, as indicated by Paul:" For as many things as have been written before have been written for our instruction, that through endurance and through encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope. ", Romans 15:4" But these things happened [as] types of us, that we should not be lusters after evil things, as they also lusted. ", 1 Corinthians 10:6" Now all these things happened to them [as] types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. ", 1 Corinthians 10:11Now considering the subject at hand, lets have a look at Israel.Israel was saved from the world (Egypt), baptised in the sea (baptism), were separated unto God, and on their way to the promised land. But while in the wilderness they fell in it, without ever having reached the goal set out for them by God: the promised land.Now this is just an extremely short summary, but do you get the idea? Was Israel saved? Yes. While perishing in the desert did they lose their salavation? No. BUT, they didn't reach the goal.Conclusion, one truly saved cannot lose his salvation, but he can certainly forfeit the rewards that await every faithful disciple of Christ.Let us not mix salvation and rewards: most of the confusion that befalls us comes from failing to make the distinction.Manfred
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