Vaccine question

All, I am not someone who is against vaccine for Covid. I also believe everyone who does not have faith to take it should have freedom not to take it. Because anything done without faith is a sin. Now I have 2 brothers who believe in opposite side of the spectrum! Here is the argument posted by a brother who is in for vaccines. I want to know how a Christian who is lacking faith with vaccines can answer this!

It is a known fact that hospitals are filled by covid patients who need care and more than 90% of them are unvaccinated . Now because the hospitals are running full due to these unvaccinated covid patients, those who are having other serious medical conditions are not able to find a bed. I have heard cases where people have to visit 2 to 4 hospitals before getting an admission into ER or Urgent care. Now if my freedom is affecting the life of others around me, how do I face it as a Christian? Do I still say that I do not have faith and be insensitive to those who are struggling?

Where are you getting the ideal NOT getting vaccinated is a lack of faith? What are you talking about? Where are you getting this from?

I think he meant lacking faith in the vaccines not lacking faith. I had to read it a couple of times.

My answer is the same I'm going to give to my employers. If you only look at the vaccine and covid-19 then you can make your case for the vaccine. If you look at the bigger picture however then the case is made against the vaccination. The transfer of wealth, the great reset agenda (out of their own mouth), the media lies, the rise of marxism, the attack on capitalism, the attack on nationalism, the movement toward globalism, etc. Its basically looking at this from a boxed view as opposed to a big picture view.

I would be able to back up every single one of those big picture items with links to any one who questions those items.

"Do I still say that I do not have faith and be insensitive to those who are struggling?"

This is not a good argument. If most of the people that are in E.R. are unvaccinated then it was their choice as well. If the vaccinated are protected from hospitalization then what is the problem?

If death count is the concern here then covid-19 in this country has killed about half a million people and its survival rate is greater than 99%.

Do you know how many people marxism has killed? Its a matter of prioritization as well for me personally.

Correction to my last post. I didn't see the part where Sreeram mentioned other people with other medical conditions not able to get into E.R. because of unvaccinnated people using up beds.

Its still a matter of prioritization as to which is the greater threat. Marxism > Covid-19. 100,000,000 dead vs 600,000 dead (4.5 million dead worldwide).

I apologize that my post may not be clear. I typed it in hurry and first part of it is my personal view which I dont want to debate here. I am just explaining the context in the first part. 2nd part is the actual question.

The question is clear. We hear that the ER is full of people who are not vaccinated and are having serious Covid side effects. This is blocking needy people from accessing ER due to other medical issues. People who took vaccine are prevented from access to hospitals because the beds are occupied by these unvaccinated people. Should we not be considerate to others and make sure our faith (or lack of it) should not cause harm to others? This is not a false propaganda but a fact in every hospital that are flooded with Covid patients.

I clearly see here that unvaccinated people are harming others by occupying the hospital beds.

Its still a matter of prioritization as to which is the greater threat. Marxism > Covid-19. 100,000,000 dead vs 600,000 dead (4.5 million dead worldwide).

The question is not whether Covid is dangerous or not. Even if we all agree that COvid is not deadly, it is still proven fact that unvaccinated people are having severe symptoms due to Covid that needs hospitalization. But if they chose to be vaccinated then their need for hospitalization can be reduced which will free the hospitals for other needy people.

I would say the question is based on presumption of "facts" that are questionable. I read recently that in Israel those hospitalized with Covid were 59% vaccinated. Israel has one of the highest vaccination levels in the world.

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/nearly-60-of-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-in-israel-fully-vaccinated-study-finds.html

Also, where are the examples of people being turned away?

Here is an example.

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/just-over-96-of-georgias-icu-beds-are-now-full

Here is an extract from this news article.

"And, it's not just COVID," Delzell says. "I think one of the things it's easy to forget is that we're worried about COVID all the time, but if you think about a patient who comes in and has a heart attack, and there's no beds available, there's no ICU beds, that person is impacted as well."

Until more people get vaccinated, Delzell says, this may be the new normal.

"The thing I'm worried about is this isn't the last wave," he says. "This is going to go away over the next couple of months, and then it's going to come back."

Delzell says the only way to stem the tide is for more people to get vaccinated.

In Georgia, 44% of residents are fully vaccinated.

It is easy to call everything conspiracy and challenge facts sitting behind computers.

As a Christian how will we justify our cause when we turn blind eye to people around us and worry only about few conspiracy theories on vaccines?

My answer is the same I'm going to give to my employers. If you only look at the vaccine and covid-19 then you can make your case for the vaccine. If you look at the bigger picture however then the case is made against the vaccination.

The bigger picture was always bad even before Covid. The world and its system has always been moving in the wrong direction. I will give you one example here.

I came to USA as an unbeliever more than a decade ago. I hated getting into debt because my family had suffered a lot by getting into debt. So I never used credit card in my home country. But here in USA, we have this credit rating system that requires one to hold Credit card. If a person never got into debt then he will never be given debt as well for needy things like buying a house or a car.

Even though I had enough salary to afford a car, a seller rejected to give me a loan because of my lack of credit history. I was forced to accept credit card because of this concept of Credit history. I believe the concept of buy now and pay later is evil. We should only be buying with what money we have. Within our financial boundary that God has given us.

Buying a home or a car in loan is different because if we fail to pay the lender has a resource to get the money back. But credit card is evil because it makes us accept debt for daily bread.

So I decided to pay back my card much earlier than the due date so that I had never to pay interest for my (and my family) daily living expenses. By God's mercy it has been the same way till now.

Now it is not having credit card that makes me a debtor or a sinner who disobeys Romans 13:8, it is how I use it. If I buy stuff that is beyond my paying power just because a bank offers credit card then I get into credit debts and fail to obey Romans 13:8. Then the credit card I hold is a mark of the beast!

Back home in my country of birth, loans are always based on your earning potential. But here the system itself is corrupt to make us live outside our financial boundary.

The point I am making is, the world system is always there to corrupt us and pull us. But we should be careful how we use the system rather than staying away from the system. Even our cellphone can easily keep us away from kingdom of God but it is how we use it that keeps us safe.

I believe a person taking vaccine recognizing that God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them (Mark 7:15), will be honored by God. This to me is faith. It is the same faith that, God will give me wisdom to wisely use my Credit card, cell phone, internet etc. All these things can lead us away from the Lord but we still use them by faith that his Grace will protect us.

There is a difference between this specific vaccine in this current pandemic and the general use of credit cards, smart phones, etc.

I will be posting some links to an old thread from 2020 and I'll respond to your post more fully later today if I get time.

You wrote : "But if they chose to be vaccinated then their need for hospitalization can be reduced which will free the hospitals for other needy people.”

And ...

" I clearly see here that unvaccinated people are harming others by occupying the hospital beds.”

And...

" As a Christian how will we justify our cause when we turn blind eye to people around us and worry only about few conspiracy theories on vaccines?”

And ...

" I believe a person taking vaccine recognizing that God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them.”

Without pointing out the obvious predisposition in your posts too overtly.... I would like to point out (for Christ’s namesake) the logical fallacy in the last quote.... if you actually believe these words you wrote- "God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them”-
Then your argument (posturing) is moot... as your point would clearly apply to the virus which would preclude any need of a vaccine 🤷🏽”â™‚️

And FTR the first few quotes cited above are simply misinformed.... the same claims are being made locally (big medical community) and so I inquired with clients that work on that floor and was told that it’s a very misleading way to characterize the situation,... stating that in fact there are lots of ICU beds available but they don’t have staff to cover them, so they say "we are full” but in fact are playing politics with peoples lives - I have personally addressed this with more than one client who is claimed to me they were "full” and in every case where I confronted them with "inside” knowledge from actual nurses and doctors on the Covid floor, they immediately backed off the willfully misleading statements... in one instance the proclamation was so egregious (this neurosurgeon was unaware I had friends/clients on the Covid floor) that I was obliged to inform him that if his statement was made under oath in a court case that he would be guilty of perjury 💯

Brother Sree, it’s important to remember that we have an enemy who is the father of deception (lies) and he’s working overtime because his time is short...

There is a difference between this specific vaccine in this current pandemic and the general use of credit cards, smart phones, etc.

I will be posting some links to an old thread from 2020 and I'll respond to your post more fully later today if I get time.

I definitely appreciate your post. But I do not want this thread to side track from the actual question on the current hospital situation caused by those who do not want to be vaccinated. I would suggest after you answer my main question, please go ahead with your understanding on vaccine.

No matter whatever valid reason a person has to not take the vaccine if this is hindering meeting the basic needs of others then as a Christian we all need to think about it. If my conviction is risking the very survival of others then I need to examine my conviction no matter how much it is justified. Showing love and being considerate to others matter so much than obeying once conviction on vaccine. I believe we can all agree to this fundamental rule before we try to answer the question. If we do not even agree on this rule then there is no matter having a discussion. It is like competing a game of tennis with a person who does not agree on fundamental rules of tennis. In any discussion we need to have a basic rule on which we stand before we place our arguments.

I believe discussing on the conspiracy theories on current vaccine and its manufacturing methods will side track from the main objective of this thread.

I apologize for posting on my view of this world system and how it slowly pulls us away from the Lord.

if you actually believe these words you wrote- "God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them”-
Then your argument (posturing) is moot... as your point would clearly apply to the virus which would preclude any need of a vaccine

I can understand what you call logical fallacy. I appreciate you pointing it out.

I do understand logic and make my living writing logical statements!

The difference is I have faith that God is in control but I cannot expect everyone around me to live by the same faith as mine. For example I have faith that I cannot get Covid (or any sickness) without God's approval, but that does not mean that I can go ahead and meet others when I am exposed to Covid. If I am exposed to Covid then I should respect the wellbeing of others and quarantine myself.

Just because I believe God is in Control, I cannot let my conviction (of not taking Covid vaccine) fill the hospital beds.

Even Bible is so clear when it says our faith should not cause another person to stumble.

I hope you can see the logic in my statement.

And FTR the first few quotes cited above are simply misinformed

If we start calling everything conspiracy and close our eyes to reality then there is no end to ignorance. The people I have met are brothers and sisters working in Hospitals. People who are serious in following the Lord and strong believers. They are my first hand witness. I have also witnessed believers who were denied healthcare because hospitals are full.

Whether Hospitals are full or whether there are lack of staffs. It is a fact that majority of covid patients in hospitals are unvaccinated. They need serious medical attention when infected. These are facts and not conspiracy.

We are working with different facts ... much like a prosecutor and a defense attorney 🤷🏽”â™‚️ ie; 99.7% percent of people infected w/virus fully recovered-

In any case,... we much each walk in the light we have- so for your "two brothers” who have differing perspectives, they each (as we all) will give an account of their actions in the light of eternal truth 💯 so you can confidently encourage them to do so because even tho they will come to different conclusions, the Lord Himself will address the inconsistencies by His Holy Spirit with all of His children on an individual basis,... were our actions based on fear or faith?

Incidentally,... the perspective you put forth has historically led to segregation with a NT biblical example being the lepers being segregated from society (by law) which Jesus didn’t see as worthy of obedience 🤷🏽”â™‚️

99.7% percent of people infected w/virus fully recovered-

I appreciate your point. Just wanted to clarify that I am not discussing about the deadly nature of Virus. I am not saying people should take vaccine because the virus is deadly. Even if it is deadly or not, people should have freedom to choose their own fate. But when our freedom affects the mere existence of others like in this case where the hospitals are full, we need to check our conviction.

Just to clarify, your point is the hospitals are not full, unvaccinated people are not in any way responsible for the mess in the hospitals, all these are lies spread to force believers into vaccination. Please correct me if I am wrong.

In the case of the 2 brothers I am talking about, the brother who did not take vaccine, do recognize that hospitals are full, as he himself witnessed another fellow believer being denied treatment. Now he cannot say these are lies. How can he now justify his stand about vaccine?

Hi Sreeram,

I wrote:

"There is a difference between this specific vaccine in this current pandemic and the general use of credit cards, smart phones, etc.

I will be posting some links to an old thread from 2020 and I'll respond to your post more fully later today if I get time."

You wrote:

"I definitely appreciate your post. But I do not want this thread to side track from the actual question on the current hospital situation caused by those who do not want to be vaccinated. I would suggest after you answer my main question, please go ahead with your understanding on vaccine."

That is fine but to whom was I responding there? Was it not your post? Basically you sidetracked the discussion, got me to respond, and then state that you want to go back to the main discussion while implying that I was the one who went off track. There is much confusion being caused here. Along with strawman arguments.

For example:

"Now it is not having credit card that makes me a debtor or a sinner who disobeys Romans 13:8, it is how I use it. If I buy stuff that is beyond my paying power just because a bank offers credit card then I get into credit debts and fail to obey Romans 13:8. Then the credit card I hold is a mark of the beast!

Back home in my country of birth, loans are always based on your earning potential. But here the system itself is corrupt to make us live outside our financial boundary.

The point I am making is, the world system is always there to corrupt us and pull us. But we should be careful how we use the system rather than staying away from the system. Even our cellphone can easily keep us away from kingdom of God but it is how we use it that keeps us safe.

I believe a person taking vaccine recognizing that God is still in control, nothing that enters their body can corrupt them (Mark 7:15), will be honored by God. This to me is faith. It is the same faith that, God will give me wisdom to wisely use my Credit card, cell phone, internet etc. All these things can lead us away from the Lord but we still use them by faith that his Grace will protect us."

Basically your saying that people are not taking the vaccination because they fear the effects it will have on their body. But to whom are you responding to in this thread? If no one then this is a strawman.

Maybe this is your style of discussing things but this will end up being a very long discussion that will get no where.

If you want to restate your original question concisely and give only short clear answers without going off track I will be happy to dialogue with you.

You wrote " Just to clarify, your point is the hospitals are not full, unvaccinated people are not in any way responsible for the mess in the hospitals, all these are lies spread to force believers into vaccination. Please correct me if I am wrong.”

No that would be a mischaracterization of my actual position, tho that statement is not an accusation that you’re doing it deliberately-

Again, we are working with different points of reference which is why we come to different conclusions...

As born again believers we should have Christ as our exclusive point of reference, ie; "taking every thought captive making it obedient to Christ”
If in doing this, two members of Christ’s body come to different conclusions then they each must walk in the light they have, allowing the Holy Spirit to do His work to reconcile and restore.

To your point- you seem to have founded your case on the efficacy of the "vaccine” which, I hope you can understand, has been shown (Israel) to not only be ineffective but perilous for many who have received it-
Again we are highlighting different data points to qualify our respective positions and as such would not likely come to compatible conclusions-

To be clear, the current "vaccine” will not, I repeat, will not prevent infection, nor the spread of the virus in question, as there are so many cases (ie: Israel tho not the only example) where fully vaccinated individuals were infected after having been fully vaccinated.

It really comes down to what we "want” to believe and in each case a person can easily find "facts” to qualify their beliefs...
(For me) it is really a matter of did we receive "the love of the truth” per
ll Thess ll ?

Having said this, your civility in this discussion is greatly appreciated dear brother 🙏🏻

To be clear, the current "vaccine” will not, I repeat, will not prevent infection, nor the spread of the virus in question, as there are so many cases (ie: Israel tho not the only example) where fully vaccinated individuals were infected after having been fully vaccinated.

I completely agree with it. I believe there are lot of lies spread about vaccine in a positive way saying it will prevent the spread of infection. Even though vaccines can prevent the spread of virus (based on statistics), it cannot be proved with certainty. We can only look at past vaccine records and conclude the efficiency of vaccine.

My point is, vaccines can definitely reduce the risk of hospitalization and there by help others by freeing hospitals in case I get infected. The current condition of hospitals has proven this fact.

I past 2 weeks I am ware of 2 people getting Covid. One who was vaccinated did NOT have serious effects but the unvaccinated brother almost met death. He ended up taking the vaccine after first hand experiencing the danger of the virus. It is true that both recovered but how they recovered matters.

You wrote ;”
My point is, vaccines can definitely reduce the risk of hospitalization and there by help others by freeing hospitals in case I get infected. The current condition of hospitals has proven this fact. ”

Well that’s only a "fact” at the exclusion of other "facts”.. ie; Israel 🤷🏽”â™‚️

What the studies I have researched have demonstrated is that prophylactic use of readily available (off label) medications would reduce hospitalizations without the dire side-effects the vaccine poses... so if reducing hospitalization is your objective then clearly the best solution is the use of prophylactics - my brother and his family is a perfect example of this 😇