Rick Warren's revealing comments

I'm posting a portion of a transcript from a conference called "The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life", and the entire transcript can be found at http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80Now, I'm wondering if anybody besides me has a problem with how "fundamentalists" are characterized by Mr. Rick Warren. I will comment at the bottom of this post...FROM THE TRANSCRIPTMR. WARREN: Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity, and when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones. MR. WILLIAMS: Bob Jones is not a mega-church? MR. WARREN: No, no, no, no, no, no no. Bob Jones is not a mega-church. That's right exactly, it's not, and that group is shrinking more and more and more. On the other hand, Pentecostalism and charismatic evangelicalism is growing by leaps and bounds. It's growing huge all over the world. And so that's the movement that's growing. MR. WILLIAMS: What's the difference between a fundamentalist and a Pentecostal? MR. WARREN: A fundamentalist would deny the miraculous today. They would – for instance, one of the hallmarks of a Pentecostal would be praying for miracles of healing and speaking in an unknown tongue and things like that. Those would be hallmarks of Pentecostalism and fundamentalists would say, "Oh no, all that stuff died at the end of the New Testament." They would not accept the miraculous today. MR. WILLIAMS: So what's the difference between you and the fundamentalists? MR. WARREN: Well, I don't agree with that. I believe there are miracles today. MR. CROMARTIE: Let me give you a quick answer to that. The difference between an evangelical and a fundamentalist is an evangelical is someone who really, really, really likes Billy Graham. A fundamentalist is someone who thinks Billy Graham is a liberal. MR. WARREN: That would be true. A fundamentalist basically would look at many others in Christianity and say, "You're not even a Christian." They'd say it about Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics. You know – even evangelicals. It's interesting – maybe 15-20 years ago, Falwell stopped calling himself a fundamentalist, and actually left the fundamentalist fellowship, and he went and joined the Southern Baptist Convention – which is as wide – I mean you can find anything in that. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++My comments...Mr. Warren says: Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity...So am I right in concluding that Mr. Warren is saying that if you are a fundamentalist, meaning you believe in the Five Fundamentals of the Faith, then you believe in a "very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity"?This is what the Five Fundamentals of the Faith are:1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.2. The Virgin Birth. 3. The Blood Atonement.4. The Bodily Resurrection.5. The inerrancy of the scriptures. I'd be interested in know what Mr. Warren considers to be legalistic and narrow in this list.Mr. Warren says: when I say there are very few fundamentalists, I mean in the sense that they are all actually called fundamentalist churches, and those would be quite small. There are no large ones. Is Mr. Warren saying that numbers are what matter? If a church or a movement is small, then God is not in it?Mr. Warren says: Bob Jones is not a mega-church. That's right exactly, it's not, and that group is shrinking more and more and more. On the other hand, Pentecostalism and charismatic evangelicalism is growing by leaps and bounds. It's growing huge all over the world. And so that's the movement that's growing.Sooo... again, if something is shrinking in numbers, then Mr. Warren is suggesting what?Mr. Warren says: A fundamentalist would deny the miraculous today.This is certainly not true. While many fundamentalist do deny tongues and healing (as in the gift of healing) for today... many do not. And I know of NO fundamentalist who deny miracles today, especially as it pertains to healing. I've seen many healed miraculously, but I dont buy into the Benny Hinn style of healing.Mr. Warren says: A fundamentalist basically would look at many others in Christianity and say, "You're not even a Christian." They'd say it about Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, CatholicsThis is only partly true... but partly false. There are many Methodists & Presbyterians & other denominations that DO preach biblical salvation. (In fact... Mr Warren shows his ignorance here because many reformed Presbyterian churches are VERY much findamentalist!) What fundamentalist do refuse to accept is that churches such as the Catholic church preaches the same salvation message that the Bible preaches. THEY DO NOT. They preach a different message than that found in the Bible. There are churches within denominations that teach Biblical salvation while the denomination as a whole does not. Methodists are one such denomination. Mr. Warren's generalizations are borderline offensive... and ignorant.But Mr. Warren doesnt care... call yourself a Christian, then you are a Christian... it doesnt matter if you dont believe salvation by grace and not works.Mr Warren says: Falwell stopped calling himself a fundamentalist, and actually left the fundamentalist fellowship, and he went and joined the Southern Baptist Convention – which is as wide – I mean you can find anything in that. I'm not going address Falwell here, but I do find it interesting that in this discussion Mr. Warren used the terms narrow and wide. Narrow if you are a Bible believing, saved by the blood believer. Wide if you are accepting of liberal doctrine and those who are not saved according to the Biblical definition of the term.Narrow is used negatively... wide is used positively.Thats completely backwards from scripture.Scripture says: Mat 7:13 & 14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Narrow is used positively ... wide is used negatively.One other thing about this transcript that really struck me, Mr. Warren repeatidly called those who agree with him as "intelligent" and "thinking people". This implies that those who do not agree with him are not "intelligent" and do not "think.Anyone wish to share any thoughts on this?Krispy

Anyone wish to share any thoughts on this?yeh, labels such as "fundamentalist", "pentecostal", "liberal", "conservative", are just man's small attempts to pigeonhole and categorize one another in a continuing vainglorious effort to understand one another. a waste of time.Fix your thoughts on Jesus.what am I?a fundamentalist? a pentecostal, a pre-trib dispensationlist? it's all soul sickness, and the dreary drab poo of the world wrapped up in theological nonspeak.I'm a follower of Jesus.so what is it today? Tear Rick Warren up? We got done with Joel last week, now its Rick's turn?I asked you before who in the faith you LIKED, and you gave me a terse answer...."Spurgeon and Keith Green", without any reason why, what it was about their walk you liked and wish to emulate. We get paragraphs and paragraphs ripping guys apart....I've been reading about four men, whom I just admire in the faith, David Brainerd, John Sung, Evan Roberts, and Duncan Campbell, and besides their annointed, devoted and sold out private prayer ministries, what really MADE these men was their monofocus ON JESUS.I'm giving ya pearls.

This is what the Five Fundamentals of the Faith are:1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.2. The Virgin Birth.3. The Blood Atonement.4. The Bodily Resurrection.5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.Perhaps Rick Warren hasn't read the F5 of Faith, and if the Charistmatic/Pentecostal movement is what is growing without the F5's what are the 5 fundies they go by?I thank God that my Father told me to get away from all of it.Good to see you again Steve.Karl :-)

Actually Pentacostals and Charismatics do affirm the 5F's. This is why I wonder if Warren knows what he's talking about because he brings that up... but then says the main difference is that Pents believe in miracles today, Funds dont. This is true as it pertains to sign gifts... but it doesnt make sense what he says. The transcript goes on to praise the RCC... but the RCC doesnt believe in the sign gifts for today either... officially.It's nothing more than confusion.The RCC does not affirm the 5F's. The RCC does believes that scripture was inspired, but it's not infallible because it can be over-ridden by the Catechism.It also does not believe in blood atonement... it believes in blood and works atonement. So Warren, a Protestant, chides Christians who hold to the 5F's (funds), but praises the RCC that does not. He critizises groups that hold to a Biblical position on salvation, and praises an organization (RCC) that preaches "another gospel".Confusion! He's one of the most influential Christian leaders in the Western Hemisphere... this must be discussed.Anyone who doesnt think this is laying the foundation for a One World Church has to really think about this. This has prophetical implications.By the way... nice to talk to you again, Karl!Krispy

by KrispyKrittr on 2005/7/25 13:26:01Confusion! He's one of the most influential Christian leaders in the Western Hemisphere... this must be discussed.Anyone who doesnt think this is laying the foundation for a One World Church has to really think about this. This has prophetical implications. [/b]Very good post Krispy. Thanks."Try all things - test all things - "watch" - Etc."If you wouldn't mind me giving a link or two.The first is an article, going along with what you've said http://www.crossroad.to/charts/millennium-goals-peace.htm ... and if you type his name or 'purpose driven' into her Search Engine, found on her Homepage, you'll get lots ... also the Search engine at www.deceptioninthechurch.com . Just for two. There's lot more confirming your thoughts, but these two would do for now. If ya want more, just holler.Thanks again.

Thanx Annie... I think it's pointless to fight against a One World Religion. Scripture says it will happen, and therefore, it will. Thats not to be our motivation as far as I can tell. But what we need to do is bring this stuff to light so the people (Christian or non-Christian) are not decieved by what is coming.There are some who are against that, as evidenced right here on this thread. But like I said, one would have to be blind to not see whats going on. But most Christian are too lazy to check things out for themselves. We just accept that Warren is selling lots of books in the Christian bookstores and at Walmart, and his church is growing and growing... so it must be ok."Few are those who find it..."Narrow thoughts from a very narrow gospel.I'll take narrow.Krispy

Just wanted to mention, I'm not avoiding Neil's questions in an earlier post. I have determined not to respond to him at this point in time.This applies to any other threads as well.Krispy

Hi Hope,I like your sign on name ... Hope in Him ... Very Right !I think everything can be taken to extremes, except the amount of time we talk & listen to the Lord. :-) I love Apologetic and Discernment Ministry Websites ... but a steady diet of them, would probably make me ill. But they are there when I need to know something.Paul and John and those, always had to address some new & bad teaching or practice coming into the Church, but they mixed it with exhortations, instructions, comfort, guidance, etc. etc..I think sometimes we expect too much out of Church, when that's secondary to our time alone with our Loving Savior and learning His voice.We have a 'personal' relationship with Christ and His Holy Spirit was given to us to lead us into all truth John 16:13, and even to show us things to come ... personally.We are only responsible for ourselves, so our alone time matters more than anything else in the world. "MY sheep Hear my Voice". That's all He wants.When we stand alone before Him someday, we won't be able to say, "Well, 'so & so' taught me this or that" ... because we're personally responsible, to allow the Holy Spirit to direct us into all truth. Teachers have their place, but we have to decide what is truth, in the end. As long as you have that alone time with He Who Loves You So Very Much ... you're Lover, Friend, Husband, King, Savior, you're Everything, ALL will work out.Fellowship with others is secondary to that, and He'll lead you in all your paths, in that Dept. also.Keep your Name "Hope". And "Hope in Him".Beautiful names/words.

Dear Hope, this is what truly disturbs me about this thread or threads like it, dedicated to yet another long "discussion" on the apostate condition of certain high profile north american preachers.we're just regurgitating the same stuff over and over again, and the fruit is that believers become disillusioned, and the discussion becomes divisive, because it's NOT focused on what is "lovely" or "noble" or "praiseworthy".why not focus on the "good guys" of the Church whose walk we wish to emulate?Here's one, David Brainerd...I'm re-reading "Life of Brainerd", and here's some entries from his journal I highlighted:"Lord's day Oct 19, 1740..."While I was looking on the elements of the Lord's Supper and thinking that Jesus Christ was now "set forth crucified before me", my soul was filled with light and love, so that I was almost in an ecstatsy; my body was so weak I could scarcely stand".April 2, 1742----".....Sometime past I had much pleasure in the prospect of the Heathen being brought home to Christ, and desired that the Lord would employ me in that work; but now my soul more frequently desires to die, to be with Christ".April 4, Lord's Day 1742...." O my blessed God! Let me climb up near to Him, and love, and long, and plead, and wrestle, and stretch after him, and for the deliverance from the body of sin and death".April 19 ...."God enabled me so to agonize in prayer, that I was quite wet with sweat, though in the shade and cool wind. My soul was drawn out very much for the world: I grasped for multitudes of souls. I think I had more enlargement for sinners than for the children of God; though I felt as if I could spend my life in cries for both. I had great enjoyment in communion with my dear Savior. I think I never in my life felt such an entire weanedness from this world, and so resigned to God in every thing. O that I may always live to and upon my blessed God ! Amen, Amen." This book is so wonderul , so inspiring, but it ain't dirty laundry. Grievously , sometimes it seems that even in the church people only want to examine and sniff the dirty laundry of the church.the Life of Brainerd can be purchased via amazon. I reccommend this book so heartily.

Hi Neil, I love the Biographies and writings of Missionaries. I have David Brainerd's book too, it's wonderful. They walk their talk, don't they ? I wanted to be a missionary, but got disabled instead.Went to Bible college and all, but God had other plans.I thank the Lord, for people who are in the Apologetic and Discernment Ministries also.They are just as persecuted as many of my Missionary friends & heroes are.They get death threats and threats of law-suits, from Christians. :-( If it weren't for some Apologetic/Discernment people that I know and some good Professors, I would have been left to feel that I am now disabled and not a Teaching/Missionary, because there is "hidden sin in my life or a real bad lack of faith."It would be Lovely, if things could always be sweet and positive in what we read, write or are forced to talk about, but unfortunately, we are still in this world ... and Paul many times mentioned folks 'by name' and ,,, just for one small example ... the Gospel of John HAD to be written, because the Gnostic's were coming to mess up the Doctrine of the Deity of Christ, etc. etc..Paul said, to watch your 'life' AND your 'Doctrine' closely. And all the more in the last days, as he instructed Timothy and on and on. Notice that in all of Paul's Epistles, if he is not countering either false doctrines, or even what he called "false brethren", " etc. etc.. 2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 2Ti 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Tough job he had. As in just one more small example ... Act 20:28- "Then take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit placed you as overseers, to shepherd the assembly of God which He purchased through His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and out of you yourselves will rise up men speaking perverted things, in order to draw away the disciples after themselves. Because of this watch, remembering that I did not cease admonishing each one with tears night and day for three years." Jesus used some rough language too, "whited sepulchers, brood of vipers" ... you know the rest.We are to worship in Spirit AND in Truth ... and we owe it to each other to follow Paul's example, to follow "as he followed Christ" and protect each other from heresies and as Jesus and Paul, etc. called them, "false teachers and prophets" ... if we love each other, we will do that. The Word of God is not all 'sweet' to the ears.And that's our ONLY reference for how to 'act' or what to do with heresies and all that is not so 'sweet'.As I tried to say above, there is a balance ... and that balance is clearly seen in the Only Inerrant God-breathed Book in the Universe ... HIS Word.Other than that, we still have the law of the land, that provides, freedom of speech.What I do Neil, is if a thread upsets me, I just don't look at it. I'm a firm believer of freedom of speech, providing it's in decency and order and documentable Truth.Peace to you.GA

What I do Neil, is if a thread upsets me, I just don't look at it. Amen... something that should be taken to heart.This thread is not about David Brainerd, altho it would make an interesting topic in another thread. Rather than hi-jacking a thread because we disagree with the content, why not just start a new thread?Krispy

I am deeply concerned with the way Warren is leading multitudes of Christians. I am afraid of what may happen in the future with this movement. Watchmen, people of God this is a call to pray. Yes we need to lift up our voice but also and much greater is the call to pray. If you have read through all my post please, I beg you to pray about this before you click to the next page on the internet.Amen... we can no longer have a "judge not" mentality when it comes to examining scriptures and teachings. It's been going on for a long time now, and look we have reaped from it. Entertainment centered churches and false conversions. Someone mentioned leaven... and that is exactly what it is. The scriptures say a "little" leaven leveneth the whole lump. Not much leaven.. a little. We've long since passed "little".Someone posted that they are tired of being beaten over the head... and I can believe that and understand that. If the church you attend constantly beats the drum week after week to the same people over and over... thats not balance. You need to go somewhere where they stand on the truth of the Word... and also teach it.Some here think this is all I do. It is not. I've been judged in this way when all anyone here knows of me is what I post here. This website is about 2% of my life. However, this is a window to the world, and the world is looking in... therefore, this is an excellent place to discuss world reknown teachers such as Rick Warren. So that is part of my motivation.This has the potential to be a great thread... so lets keep the focus on the original post, and if someone wants to go off onto something else, just start a new thread. :-)Krispy

Maybe a help would be to along side bringing forth the rather pleasantries would be to include the remedy to the problems. Personally it would be an exhortation to turn around and go back-wards, back to the classics, back to Christian history, back to the 'greats' of the faith. It was and continues to be with great astonishment to discover the depth and grasp of what is meant by this walk of faith.Mike... you are wise beyond your years. Awesome post, bro... I especially liked what I quoted above. I was asked why I love Spurgeon... you answered it for me.Krispy