De-Greecing The Church - part 1 and 2

A very eye-opening teaching from David Pawson about the influence of greek philosophy into both catholicism and the reformed church as well as great swathes of what calls itself the evangelical church. He mentions Augustine as common anchestor of both streams in Christendom.

He contrasts it with Hebrew thinking that serves as a much better paradigm to understand God's work and attributes.

https://www.davidpawson.co.uk/search/?mediaID=3421&t=De-Greecing The Church - part 1

https://www.davidpawson.co.uk/search/?mediaID=3422&t=De-Greecing The Church - part 2

Had noticed that many if not most of the "modern” doctrines were premised on concepts that were themselves unbiblical, yet they permeated almost every aspect of the modern Christian world-
After just a lil research it was clear most of our core concepts were patently Greek, stemming from a time before Jesus-
In most cases, when attempting to address the inescapable fact of our errancy it was met with either a doe eyed stare or a fierce defensing of said beliefs. This left me me in a quandary,... was I deluded?? How could this be? It was a very disturbing realization that many/most believers had fundamental concepts of God weren’t Hebrewcentric but were in fact Greekcentric or flat out pagan 😳🥺

While researching another topic, I had stumbled upon brother Pawsons sermons exposing these very things in a well researched and lovingly presented fashion- needless to say this really helped to address my concerns regarding the deluding effects of these foreign concepts having crept in very early on (see Acts 20:29) and have, like tares, grown along side the wheat and have permeated the church for 2 millennia, mostly going unnoticed as they were in fact promoted by many within the body.

The value of brother Pawsons series is immeasurable in light of the deception that has plagued the body for centuries.

I couldn’t recommend another series more than this one, and until this core core issue is resolved, it’s doubtful any believer could ever grow to maturity without being confronted by the gross inconsistencies in what we believe verses what the Bible says 🤷🏽”â™‚️
Having said that, I can wholeheartedly indorse this series as it was a joy to discover someone else had also noticed and was in position to confront the lies directly and with a learned hand 🙏🏻

What a great way to begin the new year 😇

We also need to de-Judaize the Church.

David Pawson is de-Greecing the church and Judaizing her.

It is clear in the Bible that the Church IS the Israel of God.

Christians are rooted IN CHRIST and in the love of God and no one else and nothing else.

Col. 2:6-7 --
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Eph. 3:14-19 ”“
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

Rom. 10:12-13 -- There is NO DISTINCTION between Jew and Greek for the same Lord is LORD OF ALL. WHOEVER will call on THE NAME OF THE LORD will be saved.

ONLY JESUS.

The Joel Richardson Conference | Session One: Debunking Replacement Theory | Friday, September 10th
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke-x-am9hRQ

I watched this last week and through many Scriptures, I believe Joel proves that the Church has not replaced Israel.

But that is just my opinion. God bless,
Lisa

Lysa- when you say "Israel” what do you mean exactly? Ethnic Jews? Citizens of the nation of Israel? Those who practice Judaism regardless of their ethnicity?

What about those who are only 10% Jewish? Or 1%? (Per my dad’s DNA he has 2% European Jew ancestry so I likely have around 1%) Am I part of "Israel?”

If not, where do you draw the line? How many persons with pure Jewish ancestry are left?

You wrote;
"watched this last week and through many Scriptures, I believe Joel proves that the Church has not replaced Israel.”

Yes this has been clearly proven false by the scriptures ... even Paris Reidhead publicly (from the pulpit) repented of having been taken in by this rather seductive doctrine.

If only there were any NT passages identifying the church as Israel. There aren't any.

Where is the term "new Israel" found in the Bible? Should preachers and teachers who use this term first inform their audience that they are using a term that does not exist in scripture?

Meanwhile, deJudaizing the church has historically proven to be pretty expensive for the Jews. Jews haven't forgotten that the followers of the Prince of Peace have historically been among their chief persecutors and slayers.

I wish someone would answer my question.

Lysa- when you say "Israel” what do you mean exactly? Ethnic Jews? Citizens of the nation of Israel? Those who practice Judaism regardless of their ethnicity?

What about those who are only 10% Jewish? Or 1%? (Per my dad’s DNA he has 2% European Jew ancestry so I likely have around 1%) Am I part of "Israel?”

If not, where do you draw the line? How many persons with pure Jewish ancestry are left?

I, personally, don't draw the line anywhere. The Lord knows those who are His bloodline or those who have been grafted in! He has left no one out.

We are all His. Jesus didn't die for two different brides. He will fulfill His promises from Abraham forward for the Jewish people (including you!), they have not been banished from God's kingdom.

That's just my take on it, you should really watch the video, Joel is so much more knowledgeable.

God bless you and congratulations on your heritage!
Lisa

Yes but Paul takes the blood out of it when he said not all blood Israelites are Israel (Romans 9:6).

True Israelites are the remnant who believe and follow the one true God, which includes all members of the Godhead. Therefore,

True Israelites = Christians

True Christians= The Church

Ergo, True Israel = The Church

How does that cancel or nullify the still outstanding promises originally made to the nation of Israel? Israel's corporate calling still stands even though that calling does not necessarily insure every member of the nation will respond in faith.

Will it be fair for Christ to return to Jerusalem!? Or will it be unfair because He will have singled out one nation above the others?

.... keep reading to where Paul unpacks two chapters later in Romans 11:

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

\t\t

//there is a remnant //

Who is the remnant, today?

Sorry guys, this thread is not about replacement theology, but about the underlying cultural-historic thinking patterns that forged systems like reformed theology and catholicism.

Has anyone actually listened to the talks?

David Pawson also debunked Dispensationalism as being too pro Israel.

He was a great friend of the nation but dared to plainly address large Jewish crowds about sins like abortion and the fact that Messianic Jews are denied Israeli citizenship.

Thanks for the reminder narrowpath. My apologies.

I might add though that Israel's present unbelief does not mean that God is through with the nation as a whole.

Thanks for your links.

Lysa,

I have listened to Joel Richardson's message.

Most of what he said is already commonly taught and can be scripturally challenged/debunked.

At around 50:00, he equated Amillennialism and "Replacement Theology" with Mental Illness.

It is one thing to disagree, another thing to make such an unacceptable and arrogant statement.

Jade
I don't quite see why you started the discussion about Israel. This has nothing to do with the topic and it is a bit unfair on the poster.
Just a thought for the new Year and a reminder for all of us.

Markus

Markus

I was simply responding to what David Pawson said in his message. David Pawson's message is the topic.

Narrowpath,

David Pawson also debunked Dispensationalism as being too pro Israel.

I listened to both messages. Didn’t hear this. Must have missed it then. Appreciate if you can point me to the part of the message where he said this.

Thanks.

I repeat what I said in my first post:

"David Pawson is de-Greecing the church and Judaizing her.”

The "Hebrew thinking that serves as a much better paradigm to understand God's work and attributes” mentioned in the OP includes David Pawson’s rejection of "Replacement Theology”, his belief that the church is rooted in the Jewish nation, etc., etc., etc.....