Isaiah 13:12

"I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir".

Can we discuss this scripture, without getting into a heated debate? From what I understand with my finite mind, it's talking about the destruction of Babylon. Next.

Bill: Agreed. Babylon's male population would be destroyed to the point that men would be scarce in the population.

Thank you Travis, I appreciate your response.

"I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir"

I guess the way it translated makes you think a certain way.

Example - I will make a man more precious than fine gold - this could mean that there are few men left

or

I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isaiah 13:12 KJV

I will make a man more precious than fine gold - more precious than "the golden wedge of Ophir" this would speak of a refining work that God will do in men.

Reading the whole chapter of Isaiah 13 is start with the a Judgment against Babylon which by verse 6 turns into a warning the day of the Lord is at hand.

By verse 11 through to 13 it telling you what God will do, during the day of the Lord - the wicked will be punished and proud and arrogant will be laid low.

verse 12 - I think is about that God will restore man to that image and likeness of God and His dear Son.

Matt 13: 41-43 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

That my thoughts on the text..

I think it also has something to do with the day of the Lord at the end of this age as well as judgment against ancient Babylon.

Isaiah 13:9-13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord is near, cruel with fury and burning anger, to make the land a desolation. And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises and the moon will not shed its light.

11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud and abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold and mankind than the gold of Ophir.

Prophecy often time had an immediate fulfillment that occurred within or close to the lifetime of the hearers but also an exhaustive and complete fulfillment in the distant future.

Thus Christ spoke,

Matthew 24:31
31 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Christ describes the same celestial phenomenon that Isaiah first recorded.

The sun becoming dark just prior to His coming. The moon not giving its light. The very stars and constellations being affected. Just as Isaiah spoke of.

Earlier, the prophet Joel spoke,

Joel 3:14-15
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

15 For the sun and moon grow dark and the stars lose their brightness.

Same as Isaiah and Jesus spoke of as occurring at the day of the Lord.

Peter in Acts 2:17-21,

17 And it shall be in the last days, God says, that I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind, and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

18 Even on my bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit and they shall prophesy.

19 And I will grant wonders in the sky above and signs on the earth below.

20 The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

21 And it will be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter spoke as did Isaiah, Joel and Jesus regarding celestial events accompanying the day of the Lord. Foreshadowed by former prophecies regarding ancient Babylon spoken of by Isaiah. They were tracking with one another even though centuries apart at times.I think it was judgment on ancient Babylon for sure while at the same time speaking of the future when these celestial occurrences happen in relation to the day of the Lord (spoken of by Paul in II Thess 2:2 and many other places).

It's my opinion of course. Not looking for contention in another's thread, just sharing.

Blessings Mr. BillPro

I agree with you Bill. The text plainly indicates it is a judgment against Babylon and uses typical Isaiah-ish apocalyptic language in the prophecy. There is no need or warrant to import anything else into the text.

I looked this up and Adam Clarke's commentary says, "This and the following chapter, ”” striking off the [five] last verses of the latter, which belong to a quite different subject, ”” contain one entire prophecy,"...

MHCC says about Is 14 - The destruction of Babylon, and the death of its proud monarch. [{Isa 14:1-23”‰

the proud monarch is satan. I'm not sure but wouldn't it be a good idea instead of taking one verse out of context, to read the "whole" prophecy all the way to Is 14:1-27.

My favorite part is the following:
Is 14:13 You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.
16 Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms,

In that Day, we will look at him and essentially say, "I was afraid of that?" :) :) :)

God bless us all!!
Lisa

The only problem with that is that there is no indication *whatsoever* that Is. 14 is talking about satan.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

13:6-18 We have here the terrible desolation of Babylon by the Medes and Persians. Those who in the day of their peace were proud, and haughty, and terrible, are quite dispirited when trouble comes. Their faces shall be scorched with the flame. All comfort and hope shall fail. The stars of heaven shall not give their light, the sun shall be darkened. Such expressions are often employed by the prophets, to describe the convulsions of governments. God will visit them for their iniquity, particularly the sin of pride, which brings men low. There shall be a general scene of horror.

But history says -

The Persian army came up with a clever plan to divert the river further upstream, dropping the water level down to a more manageable depth. According to legend, the city’s inhabitants were so distracted by a religious feast that the Persian soldiers were able to wade the river completely unnoticed. They apparently tunneled underneath the walls and took the city without a fight.

Babylon Ancient documents have since been found that indicate repairs were indeed made to the walls and certain parts of the city afterward. It’s likely Cyrus’s conquest of Babylon wasn’t as effortless as the legend suggests. He eventually turned Babylon into the administrative capital of the Persian Empire and the city went on to flourish for hundreds of years.

331 CE Alexander the Great before his death, Alexander the Great ordered the superstructure of Babylon's ziggurat pulled down in order that it might be rebuilt with greater splendor. But he never lived to bring his project to completion.

By the time the Parthian Empire ruled the region in 141 BCE, Babylon was deserted and forgotten. The city steadily fell into ruin and, even during a brief revival under the Sassanian Empire, never approached its former greatness.

In the Muslim conquest of the land in 650 CE whatever remained of Babylon was swept away and, in time, was buried beneath the sands.

----

Desolation - meaning "a state of complete emptiness or destruction"

There wasn't a great state of completes emptiness or the destruction of Babylon by the Medes and Persians.

Neither is Edom still burning (Is 34:9-10).

It is a prophet’s prerogative to use exaggerated language. Isaiah does it all the time. It’s the literary form of the prophetic.

Quote: It is a prophet’s prerogative to use exaggerated language.

Tod exaggeration is a form of lying - God doesn't lie and neither do his prophets and I am sure that you would agree with me in that.

What I was trying to point out was, what God has said through his prophet has not happen - Babylon may have fallen to the Persian army but that is but a shadow of what will happen at the day of Lord - when Christ returns.

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:1

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

For me it says the stars shall not give off their light then that's what will happen - we shouldn't downplay it and say this is the "convulsions of governments"

It's the Day of the Lord - this is when Christ returns.

When the King of Babylon - Satan himself will be dealt with, as it says this proverb will be taken up - How hath the oppressor ceased! Isa 14:4

Can you imagine that day - the joy of the victory over Satan - God tells us through his prophet "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing" Isa 14:7

Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the nations

Who will not fear you, Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.

All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.

How can you say that the prophets don’t use exaggerated language? It is not lying. Jesus did the same.

In the scripture I gave regarding Edom, it is not still burning. That is exaggerated language.

So Isaiah’s statements regarding Babylon do not require us to apply them to some far future fulfillment.

Colin,

You do not have to defend exaggerated vs non-exaggerated. Everyone has their own opinion and understanding.

I personally believe Isaiah 14 is describing satan, though it may not mention him precisely because it uses exaggerated language.

God knows what is what and who is who!!

God bless us all,
Lisa

It's a well established and acknowledged characteristic of Hebrew prophecy. Double fulfillment. Sensus plenior to use a fancy theological term. The prophecy may have a partial fulfillment in the somewhat immediate future of the speaker and audience. Yet have a more complete and exhaustive fulfillment in the distant future. People like John Calvin, George Eldon Ladd and many others acknowledge this peculiarity in regards to Hebrew and biblical prophecy. Isaiah, Joel, Jesus and Peter were not tracking with each and saying the same things centuries apart about the day of the Lord for no reason at all.

Plus, why should we see a prophesied coming judgment or coming event to be a sure concrete reality but descriptions of events surrounding these events should be considered allegorical or just a manner of speaking?

Quote: In the scripture I gave regarding Edom, it is not still burning. That is exaggerated language.

No its not exaggerated that is going to happen and if you read the verse before you find out when.

Quote: So Isaiah’s statements regarding Babylon do not require us to apply them to some far future fulfillment.

If that what you think then you'll miss the meaning and try and explain it away.

Lysa

I am not trying to defend exaggerated vs non-exaggerated - all I am saying is that God does not lie.

God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it?
Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? Num 23:29

Sensus plenior - I guess you learn something new every day.

Quote: The prophecy may have a partial fulfillment in the somewhat immediate future of the speaker and audience. Yet have a more complete and exhaustive fulfillment in the distant future.

That's exactly what I mean.

I believe when it looks like exaggerated language it’s a sign it has yet to happen. History repeats itself and the Bible jumps ahead to the last days without warning all the time. People often believe something has taken place because history had a similar event but it just hasn’t happened yet. Eastern storytelling jumps around like that often . Just a thought