A concise overview on the teaching of Universalism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06tRo1Hq68
Two key takeaways for me (which confirm my own thoughts) are:
1. Universalist teaching springs from fleshly reasoning and sentiment, not from the Bible, and
2. Universalists do not typically become soul winners (everyone will be saved anyway or go to sleep for eternity so why bother).
//Universalist teaching springs from fleshly reasoning and sentiment, not from the Bible//
Not going to argue about it but this statement is patently false and shows the speaker has no idea of the biblical case that evangelical proponents of Universal Reconciliation can muster.
He can certainly disagree with their case, but to suggest they do not base their arguments on the Bible displays gross ignorance of the topic.
Todd, I've never hear any convincing argument in favor of Universalism. All of the arguments sound good on the surface but can't stand up to serious scrutiny (e.g. "only the smoke from hell is eternal; the smoke rises forever" or "God is too kind to punish sin for eternity".)
The doctrine of hell offends the natural man. Jesus deliberately made His teaching as plain as he could, so that even a child could understand it. No one with an unbiased mind who had never read the Bible before could ever read Revelation 14:11, for example, and come away thinking it said the wicked would not suffer forever.
Universalism undermines Christ's redemption, weakens the effacy of the cross, makes light of Christs suffering and death, mocks the martyrs und those whose suffer in Christ's name. It makes light of sin and cheapens holiness. It is damnable, there can be no compromise to this doctrine of demons.
Agreed narrowpath. If hell were not eternal, people could laugh in God's face at the Great White Throne Judgment. The fear of God is completely gone if the only punishment of sin is eternal sleep. One of the main arguments atheists try to use against christianity is "a loving God could never send someone to an eternal hell". To hear professing christians parrot this is mind boggling.
Nigel,
Is a transcript of Dr RT Kendall's message available?
Universalism undermines Christ's redemption, weakens the effacy of the cross, makes light of Christs suffering and death……
How can this be?
John 1:29 ”“
Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the * world *!
1 John 2:2 ”“
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the * whole world *.
It is through universal reconciliation that the Lord Jesus, the Lamb of God, receives the * FULL * reward of His death and suffering.
It makes light of sin and cheapens holiness.
How can this be?
It is only through reconciliation that anyone can be holy before God and universal reconciliation makes ALL men and women holy before God!
One of the main arguments atheists try to use against christianity is "a loving God could never send someone to an eternal hell". To hear professing christians parrot this is mind boggling.
Our loving God * RESCUES * people from hell!
Jesus is a wonderful * SAVIOUR *!
I have said before and I say again:
I believe in biblical universal reconciliation not the "universalism" that is commonly known.
Actually I have not studied or researched on "universalism" (whatever it is) and all my views here are related to biblical universal reconciliation, totally Bible-based.
Hi Jade,
we had long exchanges over this topic.
I can accept when believers differ on secondary doctrinal differences.
Universal reconciliation is such a major deviation from the biblical doctrine of Christ's redemption that I wonder how anyone, who truly believes can entertain such a teaching.
I doubt you will find any speaker featured on SI who holds such a doctrine. As for the frequent blogger fellows here, I am sure most agree on the doctrine of eternal hell.
Jade, while Jesus Christ indeed saves those who repent of their sin and turn to Him, He is very clear that those who do not are damned eternally. In Matthew 25, when He is talking about the sheep and the goats (saved and unsaved people), He says "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (verse 46) The same Greek word is used for "everlasting" and "eternal" which is "aionios"; it means age lasting, forever. So if the punishment is not everlasting, as some universalists claim it to be, how can eternal life be?
Jade, what you believe on this subject is not Bible based; it was created by fallen angels and propagated by hardhearted reprobate men twisting the scriptures out of context. People tend to believe this doctrine because they dread eternal punishment and want to make an excuse for some sin in their lives. I'm not saying this is the case with you, but I would definitely seek God on this subject, pray for light from the Holy Spirit, and listen to some sound teachers.
//Universal reconciliation is such a major deviation from the biblical doctrine of Christ's redemption that I wonder how anyone, who truly believes can entertain such a teaching.//
William Law believed Universal Reconciliation.
Your statement ignores the actual biblical case which is actually quite strong. The standard response is to blast UR as "unscriptural” or in some way heretical but the person doing the blasting **never** actually examines the biblical case with even a semi-open mind. It is alway presuppositions and regurgitations.
I actually believe people are afraid to closely examine the biblical case.
[William Law believed Universal Reconciliation.]
Does not mean I have to.
[I actually believe people are afraid to closely examine the biblical case.]
When I find rotten mouldy food in my fridge, I can tell by the smell and sight that it is not good for consumption, no need to taste or try it. So it is with this doctrine, the Spirit alarms me already.
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Todd, I've looked at the arguments for this position and found them totally unconvincing. I approach it much the same way as, say, the virgin birth of Jesus, or the doctrine of the Trinity. I wouldn't say of these doctrines "well, maybe they aren't true." I vigorously defend them because they ARE true, and the scriptures make it very plain.
A person can present a "convincing" case that homosexuality is accepted by God. These spurious arguments have been debunked over and over again, but people still hold to them, not because a case can be made, bu because they WANT it to be true. If I really wanted to, I could play "devil's advocate" and prove homosexuality is alright with God.
As for William Law, I believe the evidence shows he started out well, but he started dabbling in Jacob Bohme's heretical teachings. John Wesley called him out on it in a letter he wrote: "I have scarce met with a greater friend to darkness except 'the illuminated Jacob Bohme'. But, Sir, have you not done him an irreparable injury? I do not mean by misrepresenting his sentiments; (though some of his profound admirers are positive that you misunderstand and murder him throughout) but by dragging him out of his awful obscurity; by pouring light upon his venerable darkness. Men may admire the deepness of the well, and the excellence of the water it contains: But if some officious person puts a light into it, it will appear to be both very shallow and very dirty. I could not have borne to spend so many words on so egregious trifles, but that they are mischievous trifles: ... bad philosophy has, by insensible degrees, paved the way for bad divinity."
Aldous Huxley also admired Law's writings, and noted the parallels between his writings and heresy like Buddhism, Taoism and Sufism.
Hi Jade,
Genesis 7:13-14 - [13] In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah’s wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; [14] They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
According to these verses every beast, all cattle, every creeping thing, and every fowl of every sort were saved from the flood.
What is your take on this? Do you think all were saved and why or why not?
Here is a quick historical survey of the EARLY CHURCH regarding their beliefs about HELL:
THE FIRST 500 YEARS: In the first five centuries there were six known theological schools. Four of them taught that all men would EVENTUALLY be rescued from Hell: these being the theological schools at Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea and Edessa/Nisbis. One school, Ephesus, taught Annihilationism (that sinners are totally incinerated into nothingness in Hell). Only one theological school, Rome/Carthage taught eternal punishment. Source: The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Universalism entry, p. 96, Baker Book House.
"The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially [However, even after abandoning the doctrine of apokatastasis himself, Augustine very interestingly recognised that a great deal of Christians in his day did embrace it, 'indeed the vast majority' (immo quam plurimi). These very numerous Christians, 'albeit not denying the Holy Scripture, do not believe in eternal torments' (Ench. ad Laur. 29) page 683]), Cassian, St.Isaac of Nineveh, St.John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena,28 and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible."
~~Page 11, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena, by Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (2013). Ramelli's work is comprehensive (800 pages) on this and her credentials beyond reproach. I daresay its the most comprehensive and scholarly book on the subject ever written. She is working on a shorter user friendly version soon to be published.
1ST CENTURY: PAUL. It is interesting to note that Paul never used the word Hell in any of his writings, though he was considered the theologian of the New Testament. He spoke of God's post-mortem purging fire in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, but never of Hell per se. The Gospel of John, the disciple perhaps closest to Jesus' heart, never used the word Hell in his Gospel. It is also interesting to note that the Book of Acts never mentions the word Hell, except to speak of Jesus' liberation FROM it. Acts NEVER uses the word Hell to describe any part of the Christian message which established the Church. The following passages suggests Paul's seminal thinking on the eventual and ultimate salvation of all men: Romans 5:17,18; 10:9-17; 11:25-33; 14:11; 1 Cor. 3:11-15; 15:22-28; 1 Tim. 2:1-6; 4:10; Eph. 1:10; 4:1-10; Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:20, 23; Heb. 2:9.
2ND CENTURY: CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA. Clement was the first to speak of God's fire as a "wise fire" which purges the sinner unto salvation. "God's punishments are saving and disciplinary (in Hades) leading to conversions, and choosing rather the repentance than the death of the sinner, and especially since souls, although darkened by passions, when released from their bodies, are able to perceive more clearly because of their being no longer obstructed by the paltry flesh. We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline, is His work, and so will he continue to operate after this life." Clem. str. 5:14.90.4-91.2; see also 5.1.9.4; and hyp. (frg. In Stahlin, Clemens Alexandrians, 3:211).
3RD CENTURY: ORIGEN: "When the Son is said to be subject to the Father, the perfect restoration of the whole creation is signified, so also, when enemies are said to be subjected to the Son of God, the salvation of the conquered and the restoration of the lost is in that understood to consist." Origen, De Principiis, Book III, Chapter 5, Section 7, Anf, Vol. 4. Origen was the first Christian Systematic Theologian. A fundamental and essential element of his theology was the doctrine of the universal restoration of all fallen beings to their original holiness and union with God. Gods mercy and goodness are all-inclusive and ultimately irresistible. Hellfire is corrective and purgative, not punitive and eternal. This doctrine was called Apocatastasis, "the restitution of all things" per Acts 3:21. Origen was the greatest enemy of Gnosticism (per his Against Celsus) and is considered the greatest theologian of the early Eastern Church. "There is hardly a major thinker who is not deeply indebted to Origen. From the middle of the Twentieth Century, focused scholarly symposia of the Greek and Latin Church have once again begun to study and critically expound the rich Origenian legacy." The Westminister Handbook of Patristic Theology, WJK.
4TH CENTURY: GREGORY OF NYSSA: "What therefore is the scope of Pauls argument in this place [1 Cor. 15:28]? That the nature of evil, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine, immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from his Kingdom. All the viciousness, that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things, shall be dissolved and consumed in the furnace of purgatorial fire; and every thing that had its origin from God, shall be restored to its pristine state of purity." Tract, in Dictum Apostoli, Tunc etiam ipse Filius subjicietur, and c.p. 137, and seqq. Gregory was one of the three great Cappodadocean Fathers who protected the doctrine of the Trinity from the Arians at the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople.
5TH CENTURY: Theodore of Mopsuestia. "They who have chosen the good, shall, in the future world, be blessed and honored. But the wicked, who have committed evil the whole period of their lives, shall be punished till they learn, that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good-will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace." Assemani Biblioth. Orient. Tom. iii. Par. i. p.323.
Church history is fairly clear that this view of Hell was not just the view of a few, but rather was the majority view of the Church.
Basil the Great (329-379) said that, "The MASS of men (Christians) say that there is to be an end of punishment to those who are punished." De Ascetics.
Saint Jerome (347-420) said, "I know that MOST persons understand the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures." Homily on Jonah.
Lastly, even Augustine (354-430), who later in his life vehemently opposed Universalism, still acknowledged, "There are VERY MANY in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." Enchirdion cxii. (The Latin for "very many" is imo quam plurimi, which can be translated majority).
David Bentley Hart, Eastern Orthodox theologian and Patristic scholar, notes that the early church fathers, who knew ancient koine Greek far better than do most moderns, simply did NOT translate "aionios kolasis" as a phrase meaning "eternal punishment" to be applied to the duration and nature of Hell per Matthew 25:46.
Hart observes that ". . . patristic theologians as diverse as Origen, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa, and Isaac of Nineveh saw in the phrase aionios kolasis (typically translated as ‘eternal punishment,’ but possible to read as ‘correction for a long period’ or ‘for an age’ or even ‘in the age to come’) no cause to conclude that hell was anything but a temporary process of spiritual purification.” Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies (Loc. 2059-61) Yale University Press (February 23, 2010).
When the Church rejected this high view of God's goodness and replaced it with a view of God as an eternal torturer, the dark ages began, almost to the day. Ever since, there has remained a constant and stubborn strand of those embedded in the Church who believe Hell is not an eternal torture chamber, but rather God's final crisis-center, a cosmic ER station where God performs complicated, intense and painful surgery on human souls in order to remove all the false sin-identites accumulated over their lifetimes.
While the early church Fathers are not authoritative, many of them did indeed believe in eternal conscious torment.
"The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way of eternal death with punishment." Epistle of Barnabas 70-130 AD
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death. how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him." Ignatius of Antioch 110 AD
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" Clement of Rome 150 AD
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire." Martyrdom of Polycarp 155 AD
"We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one…or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil." Athenagoras of Athens 175 AD
"Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send ‘spiritual wickednesses,’ and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory."
Against Heresies 1:10:10
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . [I]t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever." Against Heresies 4:28:2
Irenaeus 189 AD
Biblical scholar Richard Bauckham said:
"The history of the doctrine of universal salvation (or apokatastasis) is a remarkable one. Until the nineteenth century almost all Christian theologians taught the reality of eternal torment in hell. Here and there, outside the theological mainstream, were some who believed that the wicked would be finally annihilated (in its commonest form, this is the doctrine of 'conditional immortality').[11] Even fewer were the advocates of universal salvation, though these few included some major theologians of the early church. Eternal punishment was firmly asserted in official creeds and confessions of the churches. It must have seemed as indispensable a part of universal Christian belief as the doctrines of the Trinity and the incarnation."
Todd, even if most of the early church were Universalists (and I am not convinced they were) all that would prove is that the majority was wrong, as majorities have been countless times through history.
And trying to make Paul a Universalist is ridiculous.
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” Galatians 1:8,9
Bible scholar Charles Wanamaker notes that "destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 can be interpreted as a literal annihilation or as having a metaphorical meaning of punishment, not a literal destruction. He says, "As there is no evidence in Paul (or the rest of the NT for that matter) for a concept of final annihilation of the godless, the expression ‘eternal destruction’ should probably be taken in a metaphorical manner as indicating the severity of the punishment awaiting the enemies of God.” (From Christian Worldview Press)
The fact that you think punishing the wicked is an "eternal torture chamber" shows me what you really think of sin ,that it's just a character flaw or a false identity, and not willful rebellion, no big deal. In that view, even if someone does not want to go to heaven, if they love their sin, God will forcibly "cleanse" them and drag them there anyway.
To Nigel ; Amen!!
To Todd; regarding the early church... perhaps Paul could bring some light -
;Acts 20:)
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(for me) this plainly states that he (Paul) has and can clearly see what’s happening regarding the inevitable corruption that would be as a cancer on the early church till it was surgically removed yet apparently as is oft the case with cancers (rebellions) it came back, which itself is not so surprising but the willingness of the host being so blatant is 🤷🽔♂ï¸
To say that God tortures someone into loving Him is the grossest perversion. God gives every man free will, and people in hell have made their final decision. Jesus said "This is the condemnation, that men loved darkness rather than light." They CHOOSE darkness. Men have wicked hearts.
Plus, I can't think of one Universalist in the 21st century who is a soul winner. On the contrary, many of them lead wicked, immoral, compromised lives.
Just look at Wendy Francisco (Don Francisco's wife), a big proponent of Universalism. Look on her facebook page and you'll see cursing and swearing, anger and bitterness; her own daughter is living in blatant sin, but Wendy doesn't care at all, because preaching to her would be a waste of time; she'll "go to heaven anyway."
This discussion is locked.
