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History

History of the Trinity

G
gzus Jul 27, 2005

I personally believe in the Trinity because of what Scripture says, and I find it's origin in the Bible.But, if you do evangelism, you will know many do not, and one of the reasons that they say they don't believe in the Trinity is because of it's origin. They say the Trinity is pagan and it's origin is pagan.I read, and do research, and I hear this and that, and as far as History is concerned I really don't know what to believe.I would appreciate it if some of you learned history buffs would school me on the history of the Trinity.Thanks alot.Peace and God Bless!

G
gzus Jul 27, 2005

P.S.I would really appreciate it if this would not become a Trinity debate. But rather a sharing or comparison of actual history of the Trinity.Thanks,Peace and God Bless!

K
KingJimmy Jul 27, 2005

Just a suggestion, but you are probably better off buying a book or two on the history of christianity than relying on a message board for this subject. The history of the doctrine of the trinity is pretty complicated, far too complicated to be understood on a message board.

G
gzus Jul 29, 2005

Maybe some online references or good book recommendations?I would appreciate it.Thanks,Peace and God Bless!

K
KingJimmy Jul 29, 2005

Though a pretty high caliber of reading, I'd recommend "A History of Christian Thought" Volume 1, by Justo L. Gonzalez. You might also want to check out the first part of Volume 2 as well. He'll show you exactly what doctrines developed where and when, who differed from who, and how they differed, and will quote pretty extensively from the father's texts and the like to show these things.

J
jeremyhulsey Jul 29, 2005

Robert Morey's "The Trinity: Evidence And Issues" is an excellent book. It's VERY thorough in it's treatment of the subject.

P
philologos Jul 29, 2005

I would appreciate it if some of you learned history buffs would school me on the history of the Trinity.Not that I think I really qualify but here's my contribution. First an analogy and at first you may think you have the wrong thread...Have you heard any of those wonderful sermons about eagles? With... being renewed by sitting in the sunshine, a breaking up their nests to encourage the fledglings to leave home.... Well, let me give you a couple of Bible verses:Mic. 1:16 Make thee bald, and poll thee for thy delicate children; enlarge thy baldness as the eagle; for they are gone into captivity from thee. Matt. 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. The 'eagle' in the first reference is really bald (no head feathers) not just (pie-bald) like your American eagle. A characteristic feature of this 'eagle' is its feeding on carrion; it is a scavenger. In fact, it is very likely that that 'eagle' of the Bible is a 'soaring bird' and has features which link it not just to proper eagles and but soaring being in general and, in particular, the 'griffon vulture'. Not quite so noble but still a great symbol of soaring power. The problem is nomenclature; it is sometimes very difficult to know if the Bible writer is thinking in the same sets and subsets that our modern taxonomy has created. This problem reasserts itself whenever we have 'distinct' species where we don't have enough information to make a positive identification; precious stones and trees are examples of this.The purpose of this analogy is to assert that the ancients did not always use our modern 'boxes' for their thinking about key subjects. The nature of God was one of the things that it was always going to be difficult to fit into a 'box'. The relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit was, in some ways, more important that precise labels. It was only later when 'error' was being taught that the Christians were forced to say 'well, if x is not true, how would you explain it.' The consequent development of trinitarian theology is mostly 'reactive'; that is to say it was usually in reaction to some extreme statement that a counter claim was made, and often these counter claims corrected one error only to create another.The Bible revelation is not primarily theological but pragmatic. God revealed aspects of Himself not satisfy mental curiosity but to bring to bear His moral right to speak and be obeyed. The Bible, for example, never tries to prove the existence of God. It begins with that presumption. We might say the same about the nature of Christ and the Spirit. The words of Christ and of the Spirit carry all the authority of divinity; they are not viewed as agents, but as authorities within themselves, '...but I say unto you...' Consequently we ought not to expect to find 'trinitarian formulae' in the New Testament. Biblical theology is first extractions, then analysis, then assimilation, and finally desemination in acceptable forms. This is not how the Bible was written and in one sense we are working opposite to its 'wholeness' when we begin the process of 'theology'.It is usually accepted that the first historical use of the word 'trinity' was by Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, anglicized as Tertullian, (ca. 155–230) was a church leader and prolific author during the early years of Christianity. He was born, lived, and died in Carthage, in what is today Tunisia. The word 'trinity' really means 'three-ness' and a better anglicism would have been 'tri-unity'. It is important to note that from their beginning as recorded in scripture the earliest Christian's have always believed in 'One God'; they have never believed in three Gods. This is such an axiom that it would not have been possible for Tertullian to have hidden the notion of 'three gods' in anything he wrote. Christians are monotheists; trinitarians are monotheists. This is the foundation of all the history that would follow.Tertullian was the first of a new breed; men who thought and spoke in Latin. He was deeply suspicious of Greek philosophy believing it to be the source of all heresy. Before Tertullian came the Apostolic Fathers; this is the gnereation following the apostles and the generation after that. There is some interesting stuff among their writings, although my own reaction is always disappointment (other than Clement's first letter and the Didache which give a fascinating glimpse into the generations that followed the apostles.) When the issue of circumcision arose in the early church one of the options was “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.” (Acts 15:1-6, KJVS) In some ways the most dangerous era was that when such a gathering was no longer possible.The Apostolic Fathers witness to the canonicity of the New Testament canon but their writings are really quite 'lightweight' when it comes to theology, although the seeds of compromise which resulted in the Roman Catholic church are evident from early times. Their writings date from approx AD 90 to and you can see translations here. Of these Louis Berkhof writes They testify to a common faith in God as the Creator and Ruler of the universe and in Jesus Christ, who was active in creation and throughout the old dispensation, and finally appeared in the flesh. While they use the scriptural designation of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and also speak of Christ as God and man, they do not testify to an awareness of the implications and problems involved.The History of Christian Doctrines: Louis BerkhofThe main heresies emerged shortly after this time and from then on the see-saw claim and counter claim pattern becomes pretty well established.That's enough for a start. Shall we go on?

K
KingJimmy Jul 30, 2005

good (extremely brief) summary there... most impressed. I don't think my prof at school could have done better. :)

L
letsgetbusy Aug 13, 2005

Let's look at some 3's in Scripture.----------What is the 3rd sentence in Scripture?"And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters"The Holy Ghost----------OT - primarily work of the Father (but we see evidence of all three)Gospels - primarily work of the Son (though all three are mentioned)Acts and Pauline letters - primarily the work of the Holy Ghost (though all three are discussed)----------1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."----------Look at the book of Acts, where the main work of the Holy Spirit begins (the promise of the Father) and look at the 3rd book, start at the third verse, and read for 3 verses:[3] Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.[4] And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.[5] And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.This is a reference to receiving the Holy Ghost.----------Luke 20:37b "the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."Abraham - reflection of the FatherIsaac - reflection of the sacrificed SonJacob - reflection of the Holy Ghost, when he wrestled with God until he was broken and then blessed, and was to pass on this blessing to many nations, this blessing being a reflection of the Holy Ghost----------There are many, many, many harmonies between Peter and the number three: the # of times Jesus said things to him, the number of Gospels that contain particular stories with Peter, etc. It is all evidence of the third person of God.As Peter was the first disciple to stand and say, "Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus."----------The Father was rejected in OTThe Son was rejected in the GospelsThe Holy Ghost is being rejected today.Don't think so. The visitation of the Holy Ghost to an individual is referred to as the "promise of the Father" (Joel 2, etc).Got to the 2 Peter, the third book, the third chapter, and read for three verses, concerning the, 'promise of the Father':[3] Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,[4] And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.[5] For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the waterDid you catch that? "Where is the promise of his coming?"----------Please think carefully about this one. All three are 100% God. There were some who thought they were godly men that rejected the OT God. There were some who thought they were godly in the Father and rejected the Son. There are those today that think they are godly in the Father and Son that reject the Holy Ghost. Am I crazy, or is that true?All three come down to this. Do you receive God (Father, Son, Holy Ghost) or reject Him. Do you follow his teachings, or follow the teachings of men. Rom 1:22/25 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.'

A
alanrepent Aug 13, 2005

On Wednesday, a brother told me "Jesus is not God." After having told him he was a heretic if he went around teaching that, I barely responded to all his opposing arguments, and just asked God to give me a word to share with him.I asked him if on that day in heaven when myself and the rest of the saints were worshipping the Lamb, would he be there worshipping the Lamb too? And if so, would he worship something other than God (idolatry)?He now believes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God (in three persons).

D
dohzman Aug 13, 2005

I agree that the early church fathers writtings were not as scholarly as we have in some of the latter writtings, but don't you think they had an amazing devotional grasp on God? It seems to me that they had a handle on Who God was and saw Him in simplier terms than we often do.

L
letsgetbusy Aug 13, 2005

alan,Praise God! I will pray that the Holy Spirit is able to move me like that. I'm often too quick with words. I ought to change my nickname to 'letuspray.' My daughter told me this one day (she was three).Her: Stop running!Me: Who said stop?Her: Jesus said 'stop running!'Me: Why does Jesus want me to stop running?Her: Because He wants to go with you.

A
alanrepent Aug 13, 2005

"your sons and your daughters shall prophesy..." :-P(Acts 2:17)

D
dohzman Aug 14, 2005

I do believe Ron is probably on par with most college profs, ;-)

sermonindex Aug 14, 2005

Letsgetbusy ~ Thanks for sharing that about what your daughter told you. Amazing.dohzman ~ what bible college did you attend ?Have a great day :-)

C
crsschk Sep 18, 2005

The purpose of this analogy is to assert that the ancients did not always use our modern 'boxes' for their thinking about key subjects. The nature of God was one of the things that it was always going to be difficult to fit into a 'box'. The relationship of the Father, Son and Spirit was, in some ways, more important that precise labels. It was only later when 'error' was being taught that the Christians were forced to say 'well, if x is not true, how would you explain it.' The consequent development of trinitarian theology is mostly 'reactive'; that is to say it was usually in reaction to some extreme statement that a counter claim was made, and often these counter claims corrected one error only to create another.This seems to apply in many areas beyond this...The Bible revelation is not primarily theological but pragmatic. God revealed aspects of Himself not satisfy mental curiosity but to bring to bear His moral right to speak and be obeyed. The Bible, for example, never tries to prove the existence of God. It begins with that presumption. We might say the same about the nature of Christ and the Spirit. The words of Christ and of the Spirit carry all the authority of divinity; they are not viewed as agents, but as authorities within themselves, '...but I say unto you...' Consequently we ought not to expect to find 'trinitarian formulae' in the New Testament. Biblical theology is first extractions, then analysis, then assimilation, and finally desemination in acceptable forms. This is not how the Bible was written and in one sense we are working opposite to its 'wholeness' when we begin the process of 'theology'.Really like that Ron and again how well that speaks to so much we have to deal with... "carrying all the authority"That's enough for a start. Shall we go on? Please do!

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