Question for forum ?

Recently I discovered that some people, including but not limited to Judaism, don’t necessarily agree that the LORD in Genesis 18, appearing as a man/angel who ate and drank with Abraham to be the one true God …

This is news to me and I was wondering what the views are here on SI ?

It’s a little bit of a mysterious passage to be sure. Initially the three men seem as equals, perhaps a representation of the trinity (?)

But later, 2 of the visitors turn to go to Sodom, but one (identified as the Lord) stays behind and bargains with Abraham. When the bargaining is done he (the Lord) also leaves.

I have always thought this was a theophany. Whether it was the Lord and two angels or a threefold theophany is not clear, at least to me.

What do these other groups say that it was? Angels?

APOSTATES: PAST AND PRESENT
5 Now I want to remind you, although you came to know all these things once and for all, that Jesus saved a people out of Egypt and later destroyed those who did not believe; 6 and the angels who did not keep their own position but abandoned their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deep darkness for the judgment on the great day. 7 Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns committed sexual immorality and perversions, and serve as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. -- Jude 1:5-7 (CSB)

Robert- what does that have to do with the question presented?

Maybe I’m confused. I thought the question concerned whether Jesus was the "Lord” mentioned in Genesis who came to destroy Sodom which is the same visitor who met with Abraham at the tent.

Well both answers help 🙏🏻
My concordance defines that particular usage of LORD as Jehovah- that was my understanding and now I’ve come to understand that some don’t necessarily agree due to the passage of scripture stating God is not a man 🤷🏽”â™‚️

But there seem to be episodes of perhaps a preincarnate Jesus making appearances- the angel Jacob wrestled with, the commander of the Lords Army in Joshua 5, etc.

Robert- my apologies. I misread your post. It was on point.

Had read this a while back and it rocked me hard…
"We waste so much time trying to figure out who or when or what if the antichrist has appeared, just wait for the Jews to announce their messiah,… that’s him!”
😳😅

I had never thought of it that way before and instantly could observe how awkward it will be when the time comes - I have very close Jewish friends and it’s such a strange thought to be in such opposition to something they’re gonna celebrating 🤷🏽”â™‚️

This has led me to search out points where there are fundamental differences in our understanding of scripture that leads us to such different conclusions, the OP being one of them-

Here's an interesting question that follows up on Todd''s point about the commander of the Lord's Armies. Check out these two passages and see if they say what they seem to say. IF taken to mean what is clearly implied, then all the OT references to Lord of Armies or Lord of Hosts in the OT become profound in their Christ centered impact.

13 You are to regard only the Lord of Armies as holy.
Only he should be feared;
only he should be held in awe.
14 He will be a sanctuary;
but for the two houses of Israel,
he will be a stone to stumble over
and a rock to trip over,
and a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 Many will stumble over these;
they will fall and be broken;
they will be snared and captured.
16 Bind up the testimony.
Seal up the instruction among my disciples.
17 I will wait for the Lord,
who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob.
I will wait for him. -- Isaiah 8:13-17 (CSB)

See, I lay a stone in Zion,

a chosen and honored cornerstone,

and the one who believes in him

will never be put to shame.

7 So honor will come to you who believe; but for the unbelieving,

The stone that the builders rejected ””

this one has become the cornerstone,

8 and

A stone to stumble over,

and a rock to trip over -- 1 Peter 2:6-8 (CSB)

Yes that indeed helps to bring light and helps to further the point as well 🙏🏻

It reads so straightforward and yet Christ is somehow concealed unless the Lord Himself opens His word that we might see -

….and we haven’t even mentioned that He personally went down to see wether the cries that had come to him were true 🤔
Kinda throws a monkey wrench into the all seeing/knowing/controlling God 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Fletcher: Interesting question. I guess I just always saw it as an angel since that is how my English Bible translated it, or at least implied it. Now you have me thinking about it more deeply.

I absolutely do believe that Jesus probably did appear to man as a Theophany prior to His coming to Earth as a man to live and die for us.

I guess different scholars disagree.

I am not sure that seeing it one way or another substantially changes anything. He appeared personally as a man, or He sent a representative who appeared as a man. The message was still the same.

Travis,
Like you, the nuance of this has escaped me until recently insofar as there being other views regarding the person and while the message is as you say, the same, the inference is apparently a point of division between groups who attempt to understand and live by the revelations found exclusively in scripture.

(For me) it is understandable that this person is a bit of an enigma until as Robert brought out other scriptures (ultimately the whole Word) and one sees that it is indeed He Himself and this particular text Gen 18 makes it inescapable in that He says, " And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD-

That’s a very telling verse because we know from the account of Lot and he entreated & hosted two angels, not three and not one but exactly two, the same two that left as an actualization of Gods will -

This does come to bear on many issues regarding the character of our LORD-
But the issue (for me) is to mine out of the word a line that brings light to those who don’t yet see the reality of who He is,… yet are well acquainted with scripture. In truth this would be purposed in evangelism as well as discipleship.

This is as distinct from Melchisedec yet not unrelated as you remember, this same one Abraham met and offered tithes-
These are deeply expounded on in Hebrews and when the "person” is correctly identified, it clothes Hebrews (and especially OT) in a garment that we rarely take note of yet is that of our great High Priest 🙏🏻

Which is also referenced here in whats to come -

The Fourfold Hallelujah
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Marriage of the Lamb
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The Coming of Christ
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Doom of the Beast and False Prophet
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

We, if we are to obtain a crown, must run the race… advancing the Kingdom with the gospel of repentance and reconciliation- vs 10 above is crucial in conversion of the unbelieving - if we are ultimately found to have a low view of Jesus then we limit our capacity to partake of His divine nature to the end of Him receiving glory and the only way I’ve found in scripture to make all of Heaven rejoice is repentance.
Again IF, the purpose of the gospel is (ultimately) to conform us into the image of Christ and Christ is our great High Priest forever after the order of Melchisedec,… then just as the scriptures say, we are to minister as His Kingdom of priests. And this particular point, as to "who” this is in Gen 18 and elsewhere is crucial to help bring the light of our faith. This has a not the "floodlight” method currently being employed…. rather it is a spot light, a single eye beholding Jesus of Nazareth ✝️

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSqNaFcxZjw

Here’s a short testimony found this morning, from a young Jewish Israeli, where he makes the point I’m hoping to bring out in order to illustrate the need for us (disciples) to be founded on this point as it is not only Judaism but many in our own church communities are not being given enough light to see this. Otherwise how will we be equipped to minister the gospel much less be united in the love of Christ 🤷🏽”â™‚️

Again, if anyone here on SI has experience or input regarding the issue of God coming as a man it would be greatly appreciated 🙏🏻

Hi my dear Brother,
Thinking a fresh, on the Scripture you ask the question about.

I have wondered in times past about that Scripture also.

The Bible says, God is Spirit,.. He is The Word, ..it talks about The Breath of God,.. He who speaketh,..that God is invisible.

It says, the angels are ministers of God.

My question is:

Could /would God use the angel’s mouth to speak His Word through?

””””””””””””””
elizabeth

Listening to the video, he mentioned,
"Let *us make man in our image”

What I have thought on this Scripture,… Let my thoughts be w/a question:

When God said, Let *us,..could He have meant, .. the *us being The Word and The Spirit.?

The Word and The Spirit is the way I see it.

””””””””-
elizabeth

I’ve missed reading your words here on SI and am grateful to read them in response to my asking for help🙏🏻

"Could /would God use the angel’s mouth to speak His Word through?”

Yes ma’am and the scriptures bear witness:)
Not only can they speak in a man’s voice but they are so capable so as to be able to bear offspring with the daughters of men, (Gen 6:4) .

Yet this "one” is referred to as LORD, Jehovah God, and what’s further speaks in the first person as God stating that the cries of the sins of Sodom - Gomorrah
had personally come to Him and He Himself decided to personally "come down” here to see wether it was so …
This same "one” ate bread, butter, beef, and milk with Abraham, as well as ultimately judging these peoples and destroying them -

Me thinks this "one” is the pre-incarcerate Jesus and is always this "one”,…
wether the 4th person in the furnace who appeared as the "Son of man”
or the examples previously listed, "Lord of Armies” , etc…
The whole word from beginning to end is not just His story… it’s Him !
He is the Word made flesh 💯 and that "being made flesh” was by the Spirit 💯

So after recently discovering that this a primary point of contention for not only Jewish people but other Christians as well… this has caused me great distress as I confessed earlier in this thread about the coming "messiah” is really the anti-Christ whom Jesus will destroy with the brightness of His appearing
(2 Thess 2)

When we consider, 1 John 4
Testing the Spirits
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error

It’s been staring me in the face the whole time yet only now can I see it 🤷🏽”â™‚️
This lays a heavy burden on my heart to minister faithfully, effectually to our own brethren and definitely to Jewish peoples and I figured since this point of contention has only recently occurred to me, that I would ask here on SI to see if others had experienced this while ministering in hopes I might glean from their experiences 🙏🏻

To be clear it comes down to wether Jehovah, the Lord God Almighty, can be Himself in the flesh of man …
For me this is the central tenant of our faith 💯

Dr. Bill Ury was a visiting pastor many years ago and while in the middle of preaching he stopped and looking out over the congregation he said, "you know,.. Jesus is the only thing that ever really happened”
That struck a deep cord with me, instantly the spirit within me bore witness with great joy,! (He cannot deny Himself)

I’m just a bit overwhelmed by it all … the joy and thankfulness at His great mercy and patience, the grace and most of all Love, and oh how great IS our Salvation in Christ Jesus ✝️🙏🏻
And yet my spirit is low, grieved to tears and with a weight that I crumble under knowing the when He appears it will be absolutely devastating for so, oh so many! Too many !!!
And since this issue seems to be a primary obstacle, a stumbling block for so many people who would otherwise believe and give God Glory and cause all of Heaven to rejoice in their repentance, that I thought to at least seek counsel from more seasoned saints than myself 🙏🏻

Thank you, Brother Fletcher,..
I’ve missed hearing from you too!

Now, please let me share what I believe about our Lord Jesus’ conception:

God, Who is The Word, Voice, Breath,called the world into existence just by speaking/command.

I believe, God *commanded His Word , The Seed, into Mary’s womb, and it produced His Son.

His Father is The Word, ..The Word w/The Spirit….

Paul said , …. Acts 17:27 (KJV) ,.. He is not far from any of us.

Does that mean that God , His Spirit,..is everywhere ?

…Waiting for us to call,.. turn to Him, and He come into our hearts?…. The same Spirit that was in Jesus , His Son?

””””””””””””””
elizabeth
♥️

””””””””””

Continuing thought,….

The *I Am, went down,…. The Word spoken, went down,…
The Word explained in John 1:1, (God, who is Lord,
went down.

This same Word went down into Mary’s womb, and became flesh,…
He had no fleshly Father.
That same Spirit is sent down into our ennermost
Being, ( The Spirit of God), when we receive
The Holy Spirit)… that same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead.

(Please don’t be offended,…this as me just thinking along)

I am wondering too, as our brother, TMK, about the (3) angels,… does this represent something?

Lovingly,
””””””””””-
elizabeth

Yes! Amen 🙏🏻

Which is what Jesus Himself prayed for in John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: ((((that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.)))))

-and confirmed by Paul in Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the (((((love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost)))) which is given unto us.

Jesus places emphasis on this (our unity in it) as being the proof that the Father had sent Him … but are we actually ??
Is this why the world doesn’t believe? 🤔