Millennial Reign

Brothers and sisters,

It's been a minute since I've posted. I used to be "letsgetbusy" on this site. I had elevated blood pressure so now I'm chillnerd because I need to be for my health. I still think we should be about our Father's business, but primarily leaning on Him; so now a have to be "chill."

So anyway, I used to ask others to paint out the end times for me. It's a few years later and I have since taught a class at church on the Millennial Reign. I have a good friend who is has a theology pHD and is a VP at the college I go to that would attend some of my classes so I couldn't just "wing it" (ha ha).

My question was always, can someone lay out for me the end times something like:
A) rapture
B) Bema judgement
etc, etc

Well, after studying the Scripture off and on for a good few years and asking pastors and people I thought were smarter than me, and listening to probably way too much Chuck Missler (he's the man), I have come to a place where I at least have a skeleton to hang the meat on:

A) Rapture
B) Bema seat judgment (above the earth in the heavenly realm)
C) first 3.5 years of seven year tribulation start
D) Jews on earth that have heard the Gospel realize Jesus was the Messiah
E) One world religion and one world government begin to take shape
F) Third temple is built under leadership of the Beast
G) The Beast stands in the Third Temple and declares himself to be God
H) We return with Christ according to Rev 19 at end of 7 year tribulation
I) A literal / physical thousand year Reign with Jesus present begins
J) Events of Revelation 20 take place (just read it)
K) Zech 14 appearance of Jesus on Mount of Olive takes place (BOOM baby!)
L) There is a literal/physical resurrected David on the earth that leads Israel
M) Prophecies of Old Testament take place (wolf and lamb, 100 yr old child)
N) People are born during this time that, of course, are not saved
O) Passover is reinstated as a memorial to the cross
P) Nations gather around Jerusalem and people give homage to the Lord
Q) Nations that reject Christ are plagued
R) Resurrected Israel is now on earth with Christ, David, us, and enemies
S) Temple is open to outsiders but only on certain days
T) Enemy nations gather around Jerusalem (again)
U) They are "burnt up" by the Lord
V) The unsaved dead are resurrected for the final "white throne" judgment
W) Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire
X) All who are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life are cast in with them
Y) New heavens and new earth are brought into being
Z) We spend eternity with the Godhead w/ Hebrew and Gentile aspects

(EDIT: for G, it should not be the Beast but rather the Antichrist that stands in the temple and declares himself to be God. I think that the Beast for sure is a person, but he may manifest as a religious / political entity. I got that from David Wilkerson's "The Vision". He gave a prophecy in 1974 that has become about 90% true, by the way. I don't know if I agree with 100% of it, but I'll say that regardless of what you think about the message or him, he predicted that gender lines would blur and gay clergy would be ordained 50 years ago, check it out.)

This is the Premillennial View with the Amillennial View removing events A through U (no rapture, the Lord just comes), and the Postmillennial View not having the rapture to occur until sometime during the 7 year tribulation or at its end. These views depend on what you believe about many Old Testament passages. "Pre" means that you take them literally or in a "straightforward" manner, whereas the "A" Millennial View states that those passages are more or less poetic, and not meant to be taken literally (this view says Jesus is ruling and reigning right now). The "Post" view is simply the belief that Christianity and our endeavors will gain more and more momentum and culminate with the coming of our Lord with no tribulation period (this would be awesome but this leaves literally hundreds of Old Testament passages, like Zechariah 14:4, unfulfilled).

I have a very thorough teaching on Israel that I will post soon. It takes about 4 one hour sessions. I learned things in this study that I don't think I will ever hear from anyone (like where the word "Hebrew" came from and what it means, etc). Then this class above takes about an hour and is the 5th class. The Millennial Reign should be viewed as the "final step" of Israel on earth, and is the culmination of passages like Romans 9-11 (if you buy into the "Pre" view).

I have not taken the time to compare the above view to the "Schofield" or "Wesleyan" version or any of the old timers, simply because none of them laid out something like this. I'm not going to spend a year compiling what they believed when Scripture should be what we're studying instead of what a person came up with. Frankly, I don't think many of them felt solid enough to post it this way. I have put together beginnings of what is above and people at Sunday School would tell me what I was putting together would tell me how I was wrong, and instead of correcting them, I would often go back to the Scripture and answer them (in a sense) by finding out what the Scripture says, step by step; not what a person puts together (yes, I realize a person put the above together, ha ha...). I have just always believed that there was a framework in the biblical text but you have to dig for it.

I am open to correction, as always. I would just invite you to find your agreement or disagreement in the WORD, not from a person or a novel or a movie. I would also invite you to take much of the Old Testament literally. If you take much of the Old Testament passages poetically, I would just ask why God would take the time to have Zechariah write the Hebrew words that our Lord would "stand" on the Mount Olives and it would crack in half (!!!!), and to then just have us to take statements like this as poetry. It simply just doesn't make sense that God would take the time to write all these things (like a literal / resurrected "David" on earth with Israel, ((FIVE TIMES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, David Guzik agrees by the way))) to just have us to blow all this off as "less important" than all the rest of Scripture.

In short, I believe the entire Bible is a huge, intricate, detailed, interwoven, God-breathed message that has NO shortfalls. This message was in the original Hebrew and Greek, of which we now have more or less a 99.something accurate translation of what was written. Sorry all, there is no God-breathed translation. I am also, in part, studying the Hebrew (just a little) and the Greek (more so). I believe God has allowed the variants in the Greek so that we would study the differences between the Alexandrian and Byzantine Greek texts, and actually discover, or rediscover, some wonderful things.

I am shocked to find out how ignorant many teachers and pastors are of English Bible history and the original languages. Most of the time I just keep my mouth shut around leaders simply because I want to be Christlike and it's not my intention to embarrass people. Most of the time people cut me off before I can explain myself, but in short, I say all this to say that I believe that the Millennial reign is blurred in some of the "less accurate" Greek texts. I will let you do your own research to come to your own conclusion as to which is "better." But we can certainly say that Paul did not write both "your whole self" and also "the body of the sins of the flesh" in Colossians 2:11; it has to be one or the other.

One of the branches of Greek texts has us to read the translation of Jude 14 as "Behold the Lord has come" and in some cases "the Lord came" (past tense)...and the other line of Greek texts stating "Behold the Lord comes" (present / future tense). I don't really want to say which is which at the moment, because I want to read and be able to cite all of the available Greek texts and have them to reference before getting specific.

I do now know that MANY of the early church fathers were premillennial, and in fact pretty dogmatic about it, and in many cases fairly uniform. I think that their timelines were off but that they were on the right track with the major conclusions that they made (ie. literal Christ on earth, etc).

Anyway, as Ravenhill said, I'm not sure if this will kill more rattlesnakes or stir more up, but I figure I'd put a "Millennial Framework" out there for others to attempt to "approve or disprove".

God bless and I hope everyone is doing well. I'll plan on posting some stuff on Israel at some point.

(((ADDED EDIT: There are also many church fathers that were not premillennial. I'm not saying they were all one way of the other; I'm trying to say that both ideas were present. MANY modern day scholars attempt to say that they were all one way or the other and that's simply just not the case. Again, I'm just asking that we stop saying that none of them were pre-trib. I will certainly say that they were NOT all pre-trib, my trib, brothers and sisters)))

That’s pretty close except for A through Z.

Thanks for the input

I, too, have studied the end times for about 25 years but I've come to the conclusion the more I study, the less I know!

I do enjoy listening to Dr Michael Heiser and Joel Richardson, those TWO will always out study the majority of us!

God bless,
Lisa

Not sure if you knew Dr. Heiser died recently. Very sad.

/I, too, have studied the end times for about 25 years but I've come to the conclusion the more I study, the less I know!/

The best advice I perhaps received regarding coming to an understanding of the time the time of the end was to find out what the day of the Lord is and when it occurs. All Old Testament eschatology pointed to the day of the Lord and is that which New Testament eschatology is built around. One could say all roads lead to the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord (the day of Christ) cannot occur before and until the man of sin is revealed and manifest (II Thess 2:1-4).

Thank you. Blessings.

Don't let mockery deride your quest chillnerd. It comes with the territory when you begin to study eschatology which has become the black sheep of Christian theology and doctrine. Why bother they say? You won't know any more when you get through than when you began. You could of fooled me. Eschatology is the only field of biblical truth that is treated in this manner.

Also, it causes people at times to get emotional when it is pointed out that the pre-trib view of the rapture was never seen in church history until the 1830s and is therefore a good clue as to its validity. That is my opinion.

Bless you in your inquiry. Carry on.

Agreed, sir. And apparently he will "katheetso" sit down or place himself into a position of settling in verse 2. I would think that this would imply he was calculated in his take over.

Verse 1 for gathering is apisynagagogey...almost "synagogue". Curious about the implications now. That word is used only in one other place which is the Hebrews passage that everyone uses to guilt people into coming to church.

I have heard from Chuck Missler that the Day of the Lord is a word picture of the total Kingdom installation, that would include various events. At least from my persuasion, I would say that it (the Day of the Lord) would begin with the visible return of Christ from heaven, and I think it would include the Millennial Reign and forward. But I agree that the Antichrist must first fulfill the Abomination of Desolation prophesy following in the footsteps of the pre-Christ fulfillment by Antiochos Epiphanies or Antiochus IV; written of him by Diodorus:

"sacrificed a great swine at the image of Moses, and at the altar of God that stood in the outward court, and sprinkled them with the blood of the sacrifice. He commanded likewise that the books, by which they were taught to hate all other nations, should be sprinkled with the broth made of the swine's flesh. And he put out the lamp (called by them immortal) which burns continually in the temple. Lastly he forced the high priest and the other Jews to eat swine's flesh" (Diodorus 34:1(4)).

Man, that's pretty intense, but the tribulation will be so much worse.

God bless

The Day of the Lord:

1) Christ returns.

2) The righteous dead are raised and glorified along with
living believers.

3) The AC and the armies assaulting the land and Jerusalem
are destroyed.

4) Christ reveals Himself to the eschatological remnant of
Israel typified by Joseph revealing himself to his
brothers. A believing nation is born in one day.

5) This present evil age ends and the first day the
Millennial age begins.

6) Israel "lies down in safety" never to be abused again by
hostile Gentile powers.

"Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord GOD."This is the day I have spoken of." (Ezekiel 39:8)

I have heard from Chuck Missler that the Day of the Lord is a word picture of the total Kingdom installation, that would include various events. At least from my persuasion, I would say that it (the Day of the Lord) would begin with the visible return of Christ from heaven, and I think it would include the Millennial Reign and forward.

Do you believe the wrath of God will be the whole 7 years? If so, could you provide those scriptures also!

I'm willing to learn if it's from the Bible!

thank you,
Lisa

//eschatological remnant of
Israel//

What does this mean? Is this remnant made up of unbelievers or believers?

You seem to be saying they won’t believe until they see Christ personally, but I wanted to make sure that is what you are saying.

Have you considered, that Israel (the location on a map) as relating to the OC is but a shadow of the Israel we find in the NC,..?
Where in the ministry of Christ Himself, the OC prophecy finds fulfillment in His sacrifice as the Lamb of God, and being raised from the dead He sat down down at the right hand of God.
Having accomplished everything given Him to do by His Father, He received His inheritance which establishes Israel as His body with Holy Jerusalem as His Bride.

Just as being in Christ, is to say being part of His body, there is neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew, Scythian nor barbarian, but all are one body under His headship, this is Israel with Christ as it’s head….

"I came not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
(the word "house” is defined as a dwelling place, body, tent, church etc..)

Likewise Paul gives a thorough description in Romans 11…
"Until the fullness (number) of the gentiles has come in”
He’s referring here to Israel as the body of Christ, not a place on a map where gentiles migrate and take up national citizenship.

Just as with the first Adam, God didn’t use his whole body, just a rib, to make fashion him a bride, so too is it with the last Adam.
Here we find Israel (His body) with Holy Jerusalem (His Bride).
Those whom share the concern of His heart, will make up the Bride and become the dwelling place of God on earth in the midst of His people.
"And I will be their God, and they shall be my people”
This is the tabernacle-

Israel, His body, is made up of a royal priesthood, with the high priests being His bride, Holy Jerusalem .

This was always Gods plan,… to dwell with His people on earth, there is no plan b as it were, only Gods will done on earth as it is in heaven.

The millennial reign is the full manifestation, that the whole earth since creation has groaned and travailed for - awaiting , of the sons and daughters of God as the body of Christ. Here is Christ as our Great High Priest as the Head of His kingdom of Priests- His Headship established over Israel (not a location on a map) and the 1000yr administration of His government.

Then all the Gog/Magog - Babylon/Whore/Beast etc… is viewed much more clearly when we’re not looking down at maps drawn by man, but up to the maps drawn by God…

The "locations” of this administration or our part in the inheritance of the commonwealth of Israel (Romans 11) is found in Ezekiel 47 … specifically starting @vs13 but the whole chapter is overflowing with context regarding this matter -

Just as the first Adam was given dominion over the earth, so too shall the last be given.
As it was, so shall it be,… for there truly is nothing new under the sun -

Docs wrote: "...the pre-trib view of the rapture was never seen in church history until the 1830s..."

Actually, that is not so, as pointed out in the article below, and elsewhere. However, I do not base my theology on extra-Biblical opinions, regardless of the antiquity of the writer, but only in comparing Scripture with Scripture.

https://truthandtidings.com/2020/07/the-rapture-a-pre-darby-rapture/

IMMINENCE

I’ve had some email exchanges with my pastor, and it seems that "the imminent return of Christ” is his main objection. Also for me this scripture seems ‘against’ our view. Although it could just have been a sentence directed to the hearers that they need not concern themselves about the restoration of the kingdom, they had work to do here and now.

"And he said unto them, it is not for you to know the times or the seasons,
which the Father hath put in his own power” (Acts 1:7).

So any thought would be appreciated….

Ithink our modern debate over the rapture question is making a very illegitimate use of the context and original intention of this passage.

So far from lending support to the doctrine of ‘imminence,’ Acts 1:6-7 is the Lord’s personal correction of that mistaken presumption.

Let’s notice some things:

The disciples that asked this question of Jesus on the eve of the Ascension were either not present when He gave the prophecy from the Mount of Olives, or they had forgotten His words. Only days before, Jesus had taught the disciples that "the end” would be preceded by an unequaled tribulation signaled by the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel (Mt 24:15-16, 21). But first, the gospel must be preached to all nations before the end can come (Mt 24:14).

At the time the disciples asked the question of Acts 1:6, the mystery of Christ’s twofold coming to Israel had not been revealed (Acts 3:18-21; Ro 16:25-26; 1Pet 1:11-12). They didn’t know that the risen Jesus was about to ascend to the right hand of God and there remain until His return (Acts 3:21). Even on those occasions when the disciples had heard the Lord speak of ‘going away,’ it was never imagined that this would be by way of death and resurrection and subsequent ascension.

To understand the dilemma, we must remember that the great puzzle for first century Israel was how the messianic redemption could be accomplished BEFORE and apart from Israel’s national deliverance. We know from the Jewish apocalyptic writings of the time that many looked for the redemption to follow the unequaled tribulation, or ‘Zion’s travail’ (compare Isa 66:7-8; Jer 30:6-7; Mic 5:3 with Dan 12:1), but no one knew that before this, Messiah would suffer death and be raised to return a second time. This was a mystery of the first order. It stumbled Israel. It would not come to full light until the Spirit would be poured out at Pentecost (1Pet 1:11-12).

Jesus knew that the puzzle would soon be solved when the power of the Spirit would come at Pentecost, ‘not many days from now’ (Acts 1:5). Then all would be made clear (Acts 3:18-21). But for these particular disciples at this particular time, the time for the universal witness to the gospel had come. That was the task at hand. Later, when Jerusalem’s destruction would be truly imminent, then it would be time to know that His coming is near, even at the door (Mt 24:33).

Later on, when Paul will correct a similar presumption of imminence, great stress will be laid on how the day of the Lord will be preceded and recognized by definite, known signs (Mt 24:14-15; 2Thes 2:3-4). It would therefore be a great error to interpret Jesus’ correction in a way that off sets or contradicts the great importance that He had earlier placed on reading and understanding the prophecy of Daniel ("Let the reader understand;” Mt 24:15). Jesus knew that in its time, this critical knowledge will be life or death for many (Mt 24:16, 21; Rev 12:6, 14; 13:5, 15-17).

So should this passage (Acts 1:7) be used to teach that the Lord is denying the knowableness of the time for anyone at anytime? Even pretribulationists say no. They admit that saints living at that time will surely know that the ‘end’ (i.e., the resurrection and deliverance of Israel) comes approximately 3 ½ years after the abomination (Dan 9:27; 12:11; Rev 11:2). Tribulation believers (those whom they say come to faith after the church has been removed) will surely be able to know the time when the signs appear that mark the beginning of the tribulation.

In their view, it is only believers living before a presumably imminent rapture that have no business to occupy themselves with the question of the times and seasons, since it is assumed they will be taken up before those times begin. This is how pretribulationists apply the Lord’s answer in Acts 1:7 to the question of whether anyone can know the time of the rapture and the start of the day of the Lord (i.e., "the times and the seasons;” 1Thes 5:1-2).

But the imminence of the rapture is not the question here, but the restoration of the kingdom to Israel. It is not the time of the rapture but the time of the kingdom that is not given to them to know at this time, simply because the time (and true imminence) of the kingdom cannot be known with certainty until the signs of its approach will be clearly in view.

Since the gospel must be first preached to all nations, it would have been impossible for the disciples to look for a presumed any moment rapture as a realistic potential in the earliest years before the persecution at Jerusalem (Acts 8:1), before the conversion of Paul, and before the gentile mission. Furthermore, since the final seven years begins when the Antichrist makes a false covenant of peace (Dan 8:25; 9:27; 11:23) with a recently regathered nation (Jer 30:3; Eze 38:8; Zeph 2:1-2; Dan 12:1), how can pretribulationists hold that the rapture was a truly ‘imminent’ possibility during the many centuries of Jewish exile from the Land?

Even on pretribulational assumptions, from 70 A.D. until 1948, the conditions necessary for the last seven years to begin have not been in place! Therefore, the doctrine of imminence is unsustainable for anyone committed to the necessary fulfillment of all prophecy.

As I have shown in an earlier writing ("The Rapture Question Decisively Answered by the Timing of the Day of the Lord”), the question of imminence is best decided by a study of the day of the Lord. A popular assumption that will not stand the test of scripture is that in order for the day of the Lord to come as a thief in the night, it must be secret and un-signaled. However, Paul says the day will NOT overtake believers as a thief, not because the day comes without signs, but because believers will be watching and will recognize the signs that MUST precede ‘that day’ (1Thes 5:4-6; 2Thes 2:3-4; Mt 24:15; Dan 11:21-45).

"That day shall not come except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed …” (2Thes 2:3). "And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come” (Acts 2:19-20). "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet BEFORE the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord” (Mal 4:5).

In order for an event to be imminent in the sense that pretribulationists use the term, it cannot be signaled by any other known event. This is why pretribulationists were obliged to change their position on the day of the Lord, first in the 1940’s and again in the 70’s (see the above mentioned article).

Until recently, traditional pretribulationism thought the rapture started the day of the Lord. Since the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly as a thief, it was thought that it could NOT be preceded by any known event that might alert of its approach. This view became untenable when post-tribulationists of recent years pressed the point that the day of the Lord cannot be imminent until after the Antichrist has first been revealed (2Thes 2:2-3).

In order to obviate the problem, pretribulationists proposed that a gap of some indefinite duration should be discerned between the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord in order to provide time for the Antichrist to be revealed. This maneuver, however, is to controvert the whole idea that in order for the day of the Lord to come as a thief, it must be imminent, un-signaled, and without warning. This still popular theory collapses when definite and recognizable signs foretold in prophecy are shown to ‘necessarily’ precede ‘that day.’

Not only does scripture make clear that the Antichrist must be revealed before the Day of the Lord can start (2Thes 2:2-3), but throughout the prophets we see a number of Old Testament passages that describe the day of the Lord to be "near” or "at hand” only at the very end of the tribulation with the final judgment on the nations that have besieged Jerusalem (Isa 13:6-11; 34:8; 63:4; Eze 30:3; 39:8; Joel 1:15; 2:1; 3:14-16; Obad 15; Zeph 1:7, 14; 2:1-2; Zech 14:1).

This order of events is especially clear in Peter’s mention of the darkening of the sun and the reddening of the moon "BEFORE that great and notable Day of the Lord” (Acts 2:20), whereas Jesus, quoting the same OT prophecy (Joel 2:31), puts this climactic sign "‘immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (Mt 24:29-30). Therefore, if the darkness that comes BEFORE the day of the Lord is also said to come "immediately AFTER the tribulation,” it must follow that the day of the Lord is NOT the entire seven years, as in pretribulationism, but comes at the end of the great tribulation.

If the day of the Lord is NOT the seven years (the first half of which is false peace and certainly NOT great tribulation), but rather the climax of the tribulation, it becomes most untenable to argue that the day of the Lord comes without warning, or that it starts with a secret rapture, or, in more recent pre-trib theory, begins shortly after the Antichrist is revealed. This is not the language of scripture; it is pure inference based on presupposition.

As we have seen, it is false to assume that the day of the Lord cannot come as a thief if it is placed at the end of the tribulation. Even some pre-tribulational scholars admit that the coming Christ that is compared to a thief in Mt 24:43 is His visible, post-tribulational return. This is clear from the order and language of the context (Mt 24:27-43). This is further proof that preceding signs do not keep the Lord’s return from overtaking the unbelieving world as a thief.

Furthermore, Paul speaks of yet another sign of the day of the Lord that will greatly distinguish between those who will be overtaken as a thief and those who will not be surprised. It is the declaration of "peace and safety” (1Thes 5:3). I believe Paul has in mind the ill-fated peace covenant that the Jews will enter into with the Antichrist (see Isa 28:15, 18, Eze 38:8, 11, 14; 39:26; Dan 8:25; 9:27; 11:23).

To further demonstrate that the thief like day of the Lord comes at the very end of the tribulation, notice the relation of Christ’s coming as a thief in Rev 16:15 with Peter’s reference to the day of the Lord in 2Pet 3:10, 12. It is significant to observe that, according to Rev 16:15, the thief like coming of Christ is not presented as truly ‘imminent’ until after the sixth bowel.

Even so late as after the sixth bowel (Rev 16:12), the thief like return of Jesus is presented as yet future (Rev 16:15). An examination of the context of Rev 16:12-17 will show that the warning of Jesus’ thief like coming is significantly placed between the sixth and seventh bowels, and the context makes clear that the seventh bowl is "Armageddon, the battle of the great day of God Almighty” (Rev 16:14-17). This points to the fact that Jesus’ coming to destroy the Antichrist (2Thes 2:8) is the same coming that is elsewhere compared to the coming of a thief.

Notably, the next event after this insertion of warning concerning Christ’s ‘now truly imminent’ return (as a thief) is the announcement of the seventh bowel, which is also "the great day of God Almighty.” This, and not a supposed earlier rapture, is the coming that in Rev 16:15, 2Pet 2:10, 12, and Mt 24:43 is represented to overtake the ‘earth dwellers’ as a thief. In contrast, Paul makes it clear that this will NOT be the experience of the true believer. "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.” (1Thes 5:4).

A careful comparison of the language of Rev 16:17 with Eze 39:8 will prove beyond question that the seventh bowl, also called "the great Day of God Almighty,” is indeed the Day of the Lord foretold by all the prophets of Israel. A further comparison of 2Pet 3:10, 12 with Rev 16:14 puts beyond question that the thief like day of the Lord and the post-tribulational "Day of God” are synonymous. Jesus comes as a thief at the great day of God Almighty to end the battle of Armageddon. This is the great and notable day of the Lord, which comes AFTER the darkness, which comes "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days” (Mt 24:29; Acts 2:20). What could be plainer?

Hence, the term, day of the Lord, is a biblical synonym for the post-tribulational return of Christ. It is the day of Antichrist’s destruction (2Thes 2:3, 8), the gathering of Christ’s elect (Mt 24:31 with 2Thes 2:1-2), and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Mt 23:39; Acts 3:21; Ro 11:25-26; Rev 1:7). It does not include the tribulation; it ends the tribulation. The day of the Lord is not an imminent, un-signaled event and cannot therefore be introduced by an alleged any moment, pre-tribulational rapture. Christ returns at the day of the Lord, and this is the only return of Christ promised in scripture.

It may be asked, how can the day of the Lord come as a thief in the night when it is signaled by such clear and manifest events? That is a good question, but it leaves the question, clear and manifest to whom? It may seem a marvel, but at the time when the world will have occasion to witness perhaps the most prolific and manifest fulfillment of prophecy in history, still, the mediating angel says to Daniel, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (Dan 12:10).

We simply cannot suppose the Lord’s answer in Acts 1:7 is meant to teach that there is no need for knowledge of the times and events which He and Paul, and later John, so clearly sets out for the church’s protection (Mt 24:15-16, 21; 2Thes 2:4; Rev 12:6, 14; 13:5, 15-17; 14:9), and which so greatly glorifies God in the knowledge of His prophetic plan and revelation of His manifold wisdom.

The mystery revealed at Pentecost made clear that the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (i.e., the day of the Lord) must await the return of Jesus from heaven (Acts 3:21), but first "this gospel of the kingdom must be preached to all nations for witness, and then (only then) shall the end come” (Mt 24:14). The times and seasons of when that will be will only be knowable with certainty when the signs are fully in place. This concerns in particular the closing stages of Daniel’s vision, which the scripture says would not be fully unsealed and understood until the time of the end (Dan 12:4, 6-7, 9). This seems the more likely context and background of the Lord’s intention in His answer to the question of Acts 1:6.

We’ve come a long way to use a text intended to correct the mistaken presumption of imminence to defend the modern doctrine of an imminent pre-tribulational rapture. No, the day of the Lord is not imminent. It does not begin the tribulation; it ends it. It will not overtake believers as a thief, precisely because it will be preceded by the clear and knowable signs of its approach.

Finally, it would have required the greatest stretch of the imagination to teach an imminent, any moment rapture of the church at any time during the many centuries when there was no nation of Israel to even set the stage for the last seven years. The Lord is always "at hand” (Phil 4:5) in the sense that "the Judge is standing at the door” (Ja 5:9), signifying every person’s proximity to the ever present potential of sudden judgment (Lk 12:20, 45-46), but the doctrine of imminence from the standpoint of actual chronology is a disarming false doctrine that threatens to cost the church dearly.

In His precious service, Reggie

A few church fathers are supposed to have said things that prove the pre-trib doctrine and even then it seems many times their statements do not really mean what they are said to mean. Sometimes context and surrounding statements are ignored. But even if they did say them, at the same time, there always has been a vastly larger number of early church fathers who were clearly post-tribulational in regard to the timing of Christ's coming. The standard way in which the overwhelming majority of their statements is handled is just to ignore them. Below is a short list, of which there are many more early fathers who were obviously post-tribulational.

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)

Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

Said again: the vast majority of early church fathers taught no doctrine that advocates the church being snatched away before the final time of great tribulation.

Revelation, in my view, is not a linear narrative. You mentioned the seven bowls (vials in KJV). When compared to the seven trumpets I believe they are the same events, but with different emphases. Compare and make your own determination. As with much in the mystery of Godliness, we will only have 20/20 hindsight. But it is a great blessing to search out God's Word.

Brother docs,

I appreciate that, sir. I have myself convinced, anyway, that the Millennium may be one of the key doctrines that was commonly taught in the early Church, that was some how "snuffed out" and then confused and twisted historically (I've heard that kind of twisting done somewhere before...). When I say early Church, I mean those who were part of the body of Christ, prior to the official founding of the Roman Catholic Church. So around 34ish AD until the founding of the "Catholic Church" (that is exactly how it is written in the 380 or 381 Roman Edict of Thessalonica, not trying to put crosshairs on the Roman Church but it is what it is). I have been dissuaded by several people in several different ways from digging into this, over several years, but now that I am in a master's program, I have a textbook that, in passing, that is citing several early church fathers (Lactantius, Victorinus, Ephrem, etc) whom all emphatically believed in the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth; almost seemingly to a fault. (If you want the quotes please ask, typing them out will help me to memorize what they said).

I took the place of a pHD friend of mine and taught our "seasoned" church members for a month on Israel. Well, this was intimidating to say the least, especially since he sat in on a couple of classes. Well to my surprise, he did not correct me on anything. The last class was on the Millennial Reign, because if you follow Israel's future timeline, one is lead to figure out who is where at what time (we might say eschatological logistics, ha ha), and how we are going to get to a place where the wolf lies down with the Lamb, and when the Lord will stand on the Mount of Olives while IT SPLITS IN HALF!!! (I'm pretty sure that passage has not been fulfilled). Quickly, if you take those verses as poetry or non-essential, fine, you can check out with me here. But I take all Scripture as God breathed and profitable, because God tells us to consider them that way in Timothy: That is: the first consonantal Hebrew word of Genesis 1:1, to the last word of Koine Greek in Rev 22:21. There is not a single biblical word that the Holy Spirit did not intend for our good.

So, yes, friend, I have already weathered a lot of that kind of attempted embarrassment my way, dissuasion, etc, etc, At this point I'm like: "ahhh whatever". When my studies keep taking me down a road that the Scriptures have led me to, I'm not going to get bogged down because people want to say that I'm: 1) too literal 2) wasting my time 3) hyper-spiritual 4) nerdy 5) distracted, etc, etc. I keep reminding myself in many regards that all things are, in fact, spiritual warfare, so therefore, I'm wrestling with the demonic, not with a person. So it's all good.

There is so much untapped good information and promoted misinformation that I have come to a place that I just might have to resolve myself to teach about the Millennium at a college level, knowing that a lot of colleges might not want to touch me. Whatever He wants, of course.

Thanks for the encouraging words and God bless you as you walk with Christ as well, my dear brother.

/Lord will stand on the Mount of Olives while IT SPLITS IN HALF!!! (I'm pretty sure that passage has not been fulfilled)./

Check out Matthew Henry’s commentary on that verse to see how it indeed HAS been fulfilled.

/Have you considered, that Israel (the location on a map) as relating to the OC is but a shadow of the Israel we find in the NC,..?
Where in the ministry of Christ Himself, the OC prophecy finds fulfillment in His sacrifice as the Lamb of God, and being raised from the dead He sat down down at the right hand of God.
Having accomplished everything given Him to do by His Father, He received His inheritance which establishes Israel as His body with Holy Jerusalem as His Bride./

I think the problem with this type of reasoning is that Israel was never a type or shadow. It seems to be an error of the most serious and fundamental nature to incorporate the Abrahamic land promise into the temporal Mosaic covenant. The promise of the land incorporating the physical borders of a material land named Israel that could be found on the map was according to the unconditional, everlasting terms of the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 15:1-21) that were revealed 430 years before the law and Mosaic covenant and cannot be annulled. The land was not meant to be a type or shadow in need of future reinterpretation as to its meaning.

There is the mistaken belief that the land, as mere shadow or type, is rooted in the old temporal Mosaic covenant. We have been told that the land is a "return to the shadowy forms of the old covenant." Contrary wise, the Bible gives a strong monolithic witness that the land is rooted in the Abrahamic covenant (Gen 12:1,5-7; 13:14-15,17; 15:7-21) and is intrinsic to the covenant itself. As such, it is not limited by the temporary character of the Mosaic administration or in need of reinterpretation in regard to its true meaning.

Advocating that the physical land of Israel is no more in God's sight because of greater New Testament spiritual realities seems valid until one realizes that the original land promises making Israel a physical land were part of the Abrahamic covenant which is only fulfilled in the new covenant of grace. Israel was never a shadow or type under the old covenant. Promises to Israel were originally part of the new covenant of grace.

That Gentiles have been incorporated into the covenant promises given to the commonwealth of Israel is undeniable and a source of wonderment and rejoicing. Yet the original promises made under the original Abrahamic covenant of grace will not be change or replace God's word to a physical people living in a physical land. When Christ touches down on earth again at His second coming, I believe there is a specific earthly location that will occur in and that location will be able to be found on a map. That doesn't limit at all the scope of earth and the cosmos to eventually be affected by Christ's salvation.

Sister Lysa,

As far as the visible return of Christ, that just seems to make sense, that He would refer to it as "The Day of the Lord"; or rather, now He (and "we" because we want His will to be done) is getting what He wants: namely His physical Kingdom set up on earth. I would say that the rapture would not yet be the Day of the Lord because Israel still has to face tribulation. So once the tribulation finishes (7 years total), the armies surround Jerusalem, and Christ returns to earth "with ten thousands of his myriads" or "saints" or "holy ones" (Jude 14 / some say angels, I think it's talking about us returning with Him to execute judgement). So it seems to make sense that His returning to earth in a visible sense, with angels, and I believe us, that His Kingdom being physically set up on earth is called "His Day". In other words, this is His time.

However, I could see how someone might say that it would be a little earlier while the Revelation bowl judgments and such are being poured out before He comes back. I don't think I have a problem with that. Like someone, who is an enemy of God, at the end of the tribulation, who is on the earth during the judgments being poured out on the earth, saying "The Day of the Lord has come" so to speak. I would say that's like the "prelude" of The Day of the Lord. I take "Day" of the Lord the same way I take "week" in Daniel: it stands for a period of time. If someone else doesn't, okay, but as long as you're following the Scripture.

I think that the tribulation, or the "time of Jacob's trouble" will take seven years. In the Daniel 9 passage, look below at Daniel 9:27 ONLY for the time that covers the tribulation. I have included all major Scriptural sections that discuss the tribulation that I could think of, in the order that they are found in your Bible:

Jeremiah 30

1 This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 "This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Write in a book all the words I have spoken to you. 3 The days are coming,’ declares the Lord, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their ancestors to possess,’ says the Lord.”

4 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah: 5 "This is what the Lord says:

"‘Cries of fear are heard””
terror, not peace.
6 Ask and see:
Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
every face turned deathly pale?
7 How awful that day will be!
No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
but he will be saved out of it.
8 "‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
‘I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds;
no longer will foreigners enslave them.
9 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
and David their king,
whom I will raise up for them.
10 "‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
do not be dismayed, Israel,’
declares the Lord.
‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,
your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
and no one will make him afraid.
11 I am with you and will save you,’
declares the Lord.
‘Though I completely destroy all the nations
among which I scatter you,
I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’

***Then Daniel 9

24 "Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

25 "Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

***The Olivet Discourse is discussing the seven years:

Matthew 24 V9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 "So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel””let the reader understand”” 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now””and never to be equaled again.

22 "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 "So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 "Immediately after the distress of those days

"‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

***And then the Olivet Discourse in Mark

13 As Jesus was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!”

2 "Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”

5 Jesus said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 "When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong””let the reader understand””then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now””and never to be equaled again.

20 "If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them. 21 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.

24 "But in those days, following that distress,

"‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 "At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

***And then the Olivet Discourse in Luke 21

5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 "As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”

7 "Teacher,” they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away.”

10 Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12 "But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.

20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

29 He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

***I would assume the sealing of the 144,000 Jews happens during this time:

Revelation 7

1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

***And then Revelation 12:6 looks like it covers the first half of the seven year tribulation, where Israel seeks refuge but then is hunted down by the Antichrist and those who follow him.

The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

***There is one more section that discusses how 2 out of every 3 Jews will be killed during the last half of the tribulation, I just wasn't able to find it.

Hope this helps!

EDIT: I found the passage about 2/3 of the Jews being killed during the tribulation:

Zechariah 13

1 "On that day a fountain will be opened to the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and impurity.

2 "On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land, and they will be remembered no more,” declares the Lord Almighty. "I will remove both the prophets and the spirit of impurity from the land. 3 And if anyone still prophesies, their father and mother, to whom they were born, will say to them, ‘You must die, because you have told lies in the Lord’s name.’ Then their own parents will stab the one who prophesies.

4 "On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.[a]’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’

The Shepherd Struck, the Sheep Scattered

7 "Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
against the man who is close to me!”
declares the Lord Almighty.
"Strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered,
and I will turn my hand against the little ones.
8 In the whole land,” declares the Lord,
"two-thirds will be struck down and perish;
yet one-third will be left in it.
9 This third I will put into the fire;
I will refine them like silver
and test them like gold.
They will call on my name
and I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are my people,’
and they will say, ‘The Lord is our God.’”