Most of the arguments that I hear against Universalism are straw men. Patristic Universalism was the prevailing doctrine during the first four hundred years and most of the Early Church Father held to this view. A much better case can be made for Universal Reconciliation or what the church fathers called Apocatastasis using scripture than eternal torment.
This isn't true, dukster. While you might find a handful of teachers who claim this, it's simply not the case. Moreover, even if some (or perhaps many) of the "early church fathers" held this view, it doesn't make it biblically sound.
In fact, the Epistles existed at the time of the apostles because there was already so much false doctrine being proclaimed during the time of the "early church." There are pseudepigraphal "epistles" and even "gospels" that are tainted and uninspired.
The standard for spiritual truth isn't history or tradition. It isn't the early "fathers" either. Rather, the standard for spiritual truth is the Bible alone. This is not to say that we cannot learn from the early church ideals. Rather, they're merely a contextual historical anecdotes rather than some inarguable truths.
Chris-
Do you have a "number 1” scripture that you believe refutes UR or do you just think it’s a preponderance of scripture taken as a whole? In other words do you believes it d reasonable doubt or rather a preponderance of the evidence?
Just curious.
Hi TMK,
Good question. I suppose that it is a macro versus micro understanding of Scripture. Reading the Bible through cover-to-cover repeatedly is very helpful in "seeing" the big picture of such matters. For the most part, this helps when it comes to avoid being carried away by "various winds of doctrine" that are sometimes based (in part) on a particular verse of passage of Scripture.
I suppose that I could gather together passages of Scripture that, in context, refute a UR perception. Yet, doing this typically invites a battle of doctrines where singular verses or passages are tossed back and forth like artillery shells.
Yet, for me (and in regard this underlying message of salvation), the proper context begins in Genesis and ends in Revelation. In between all of it, there is a very real understanding of "salvation" that is seen. In fact, the entire Biblical narrative is connected in this regard. Through reading it all (with an honest and open hunger for truth rather than prior established dogma), I cannot find any semblance of an "apocatastasis" end result.
This doesn't mean that I cannot perceive why some might come to some sort of conclusion after some study. However, I do think that even one entire read-through of the Word of God -- from Genesis through Revelation -- helps in this regard.
Consequently, the passages that I hear that are used to substantiate various universalism ideas end up as "strange" when the verses are read in the ever-growing context of the Biblical narrative. In fact, I do make a list of issues that I hope to find clarity with during each new journey through the Word. Last year, I added "salvation" as something to consider as I started through Genesis and ended in Revelation. It's amazing how this topic is found throughout most books of both the old and new testaments.
Thanks for the reply.
I’ve read through the Bible every year for a lot of years and I am not as certain as you are. The best I can say is that I am not certain.
dukster-
One word set forth as the condition,… "if”
G1437-
á¼Î¬Î½;
I. a conditional particle (derived from εἰ ἄν), which makes reference to time and to experience, introducing something future, but not determining, before the event, whether it is certainly to take place; if .
Hebrews 3:
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
note; hereâ˜ðŸ¼we have Holy Spirit speaking -
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, ((((if)))) we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Also speaking to believers in the previous chapter-
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
This is only one example that torpedoes the hull of this ship,… not only are there many more individual passages but the whole council speaks likewise as there would be no need of any warnings whatsoever if God intended to forcibly require belief and subsequent obedience to Christ, which by the scriptural definition would not only be witchcraft but rape 😳
God the Father is neither a witch nor a rapist 🤷🽔♂ï¸
//if God intended to forcibly require belief and subsequent obedience to Christ, which by the scriptural definition would not only be witchcraft but rape 😳
God the Father is neither a witch nor a rapist 🤷🽔♂ï¸//
Have you seriously considered what the doctrine of conscious eternal torment really means? Forcing someone to believe (a position which of course no evangelical proponent of UR holds) would be far less terroristic than the doctrine of CET.
Terroristic !??
That’s how you choose to characterize Gods righteous judgement?
By definition, you are laying charge at the feet of God to be conducting unlawful violence and intimidation!??
Todd, there is only one word that suffices….
REPENTâœï¸
You do not believe UR can be true because in your opinion it would make God a rapist and a witch (your words, not mine).
I have strong doubts about the doctrine of conscious eternal torment because of implications to God’s character.
What’s the difference? If you turn out to be wrong, won’t you have to give account for your characterization of God as a rapist witch?
The obvious implication of CET is that, if true, God created humans knowing that the vast vast vast majority will be tortured forever and ever. If you want to be gung ho about that, have at it!
Now of course CET may be true. I’m not going to say that is not possible. But I sincerely hope that it is not and I certainly don’t relish the idea as the great swath of Christians seem to do.
We discussed this a while ago in this thread
The scriptures are clear wether anyone believes them are not 🤷🽔♂ï¸
the unstable and double minded will do nothing in the way of changing the scriptures regarding their application in judgment-
Personally, I’ve never met any who as you characterized, "relish the idea” of eternal torment consciously or otherwise….
Rather most people that I’ve met that know the Lord, fear Him and the terrible judgment that’s coming âœï¸ they don’t want anyone to be condemned on that day and urge with all sobriety and earnestness…. Repent, turn to God and obey the gospel ðŸ™ðŸ»
There is no profit in arguing, rather consider this verse and ask Him yourself so that it will no longer be a matter of opinion nor interpretation-
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Philippians 2:9-11
The part after the last comma is key.
Dukster,
I used to always go to tentmakers website and dabbled heavily in christian universalism. Then the Lord gave me a ministry teaching in the local jail to the women and He asked me point blank, "Are you going to teach universalism to those of childlike faith? And tell them there is no hell?"
With the Lord asking me that question, I figured if HE is inclined to know what I was going to teach to His little ones, then it isn't a valid teaching.
I am convinced but for you (and others), I offer the following articles from Dr Michael Heiser:
https://drmsh.com/the-premises-of-universal-salvation/
https://drmsh.com/romans-512-and-universalism-applying-my-take-on-romans-512-to-the-problem/
God bless you in your search,
Lisa
Universalism in whatever form undermines Christ's redemption, weakens the effacy of the cross, makes light of Christs suffering and death, mocks the martyrs und those whose suffer in Christ's name. It excuses sin and cheapens holiness. It is damnable, there can be no compromise to this doctrine of demons.
OSAS is a form of universalism limited to the so called "elect". There are so many warnings to believers not to forsake the faith, not to believe lies, sinning against others, or grow wary or slacking off.
People who believe or teach these doctrines want them to be true.
And why do we have so much difficulty with works? There are works of the the devil, the flesh, and the law and works of faith and the Spirit. As long as we concentrate on the latter 2 we are doing well. Everybody who abides and believes and walks in the Spirit will do Gods works.
Agreed Narrowpath.
Another thought occurred to me: Jesus said that every sin can be forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit; He said it will not be forgiven in this world OR THE WORLD TO COME.
So even staunch universalists must concede that there are some people that will never, under any circumstances, now or in eternity, be forgiven.
I guess they are forced to imagine that the people that commit the unpardonable sin will be annihilated. They can probably change their beliefs to suit the current scripture they are trying to twist.
narrowpath
Universalism in whatever form undermines Christ's redemption, weakens the effacy of the cross, makes light of Christs suffering and death, mocks the martyrs und those whose suffer in Christ's name. It excuses sin and cheapens holiness. It is damnable, there can be no compromise to this doctrine of demons.
Just how exactly does Patristic Universalism does this???
drifter
Another thought occurred to me: Jesus said that every sin can be forgiven except blaspheming the Holy Spirit; He said it will not be forgiven in this world OR THE WORLD TO COME.
And what exactly is the unpardonable sin???
I know I'm not Narrowpath but I would like to see you (and dukster) to provide historical, original, quotes from the early church fathers that believed in patristic universalism.
Not alluding to or a book that says they believed in it but ACTUAL quotes stating they wrote about it and believed the Bible stated it, please.
Thank you,
Lisa
Lysa
Scripture is the authority.
We will discuss my question to narrowpath based on scripture alone.
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’…
Ephesians 5:5 For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
The Bible is very clear that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Where the rest will end up would be a different topic.
Our focus should be on the Good News, the true Biblical Gospel but with a warning about the bad news that "not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven..."
Markus
This discussion is locked.
