What the early church thought of the rapture/ resserection Latin vulgate 1th4.16Then we who are al

Latin vulgate

1th4.16Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air: and so shall we be always with the Lord.

quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi

1th4.17Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words. deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

rapio (VPAR): drag off; snatch; destroy; seize, carry off; pillage; hurry; raptim (ADV): hurriedly, suddenly; rapto (VPAR): drag violently off; ravage; raptor (N): robber; plunderer; raptum (VPAR): plunder; prey; raptus (VPAR): violent snatching or dragging away; robbery, carrying off, abduction;

The noun rapture itself was etymologically problematic: according to the OED, post-classical Latin raptura was variously used to mean poaching, rape, and abduction. And similar meanings carried on to some extent in English:

1595 F. Sabie Fissher-mans Tale sig. Cv, Priams famous towne, Nere bought so deare the rapture of faire Hellen.
1600 T. Dekker Old Fortunatus sig. H4v, That feare, Which her late violent rapture cast vpon her.
1612 Life & Death Lewis Gaufredy sig. C1, Great bitternes and affliction, as hers was after the rapture of her childe.
?1615 G. Chapman tr. Homer Odysses (new ed.) xx. 485 My women servants dragg'd about my house To lust and rapture
1632 G. Sandys tr. Ovid Metamorphosis (new ed.) v. 171 Lo, I the man, that will vpon thy life Reuenge, said he, the rapture of my wife

you can see why I don't like to use this word

this is the early church fathers on 1 thess 4 they use the term resserection

Homilies Of St. John Chrysostom, Archbishop Of Constantinople, On The First Epistle Of St. Paul The Apostle To The Thessalonians

Homily VIII 1 Thessalonians iv. 15”“17 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we that are alive, that are left, shall
together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” The Prophets indeed, wishing to show the credibility of the things said by them, before all other things say this, "The vision which Isaiah saw” (Isa. i. 1.); and again, "The word of the Lord which came to Jeremiah” (Jer. i. 1, Sept); and again, "Thus saith the Lord”; with many such expressions. And many of them even saw God sitting, as far as it was possible for them to see Him. But Paul not having seen Him sitting, but having Christ speaking in himself, instead of Thus saith the Lord, said, "Do ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me?” (2 Cor. xiii. 3.) And again, "Paul, an Apostle of Jesus Christ.” For the "Apostle” speaks the things of Him who sent him; showing that nothing is of himself. And again, "I think that
I also have the Spirit of God.” (1 Cor. vii. 40.) All those things therefore he spake by the Spirit, but this, which he now says, he heard even expressly from God. As also that which he had said discoursing to the Elders of Ephesus, "It is more blessed to give than to receive,” he heard among things not recorded. (Acts xx. 35.) Let us then see what he now also says. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in nowise precede them that are fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the last trump.” For then, he saith, "The powers of the heavens shall be shaken.” (Matt. xxiv. 29.) But wherefore with the trumpet? For we see this on Mount Sinai too, and Angels there also. But what
means the voice of the Archangel? As he said in the parable of the Virgins, Arise! "The Bridegroom cometh.” (From Matt. xxv. 6.) Either it means this, or that as in the case of a king, so also shall it then be, Angels ministering at the Resurrection. For He says, let the dead rise, and the work is done, the Angels not having power to do this, but His word. As if upon a king’s commanding and saying it, those who were shut up should go forth, and the servants should lead them out, yet they do this not from their own power, but from that Voice. This also Christ says in another place: "He shall send forth his Angels with a great trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Matt. xxiv. 31.) And everywhere you see the Angels running to and fro. The Archangel therefore I think is he
who is set over those who are sent forth, and who shouts thus: "Make all men ready, for the Judge is at hand.” And what is "at the last trumpet”? Here he implies that there are many trumpets, and that at the last the Judge descends. "And the dead,” he says, "in Christ shall rise first. Then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Ver. 18. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” If He is about to descend, on what account shall we be caught up? For the sake of honor. For when a king drives into a city, those who are in honor go out to meet him; but the condemned await the judge within. And upon the coming of an affectionate father, his children in

be his children, are taken out in a chariot, that they may see and kiss him; but those of the domestics who have offended remain within. We are carried upon the chariot of our Father. For He received Him up in the clouds, and "we shall be caught up in the clouds.” (Acts i. 9.) Seest thou how great is the honor? and as He descends, we go forth to meet Him, and, what is more blessed than all, so we shall be with Him. "Who shall speak of the mightinesses of the Lord, and make all His praises to be heard?” (Ps. cvi. 2, Sept.) How many blessings has He vouchsafed to the human race! Those who are dead are raised first, and thus the meeting takes place together. Abel who died before all shall then meet Him together with those who are alive. So that they in this respect will have no advantage, but he who is
corrupted, and has been so many years in the earth, shall meet Him with them, and so all the others. For if they awaited us, that we might be crowned, as elsewhere he says in an Epistle, "God having provided some better thing concerning us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect” (Heb. xi. 40.), much more shall we also await them; or rather, they indeed awaited, but we not at all. For the Resurrection takes place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.” But as to the saying, that they are gathered together; they arise indeed everywhere, but are gathered together by the Angels. The former therefore is the work of the power of God commanding the earth to give up its deposit, and there is no one who ministers in it, as He then called Lazarus, "Lazarus, come forth” (John xi. 43.); but the gathering is the work of ministers

Hi Deltadom,
Just a couple of points I think are edifying.
NASB Version
Behold, I am telling you a [w]mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [x]imperishable, and we will be changed.

This statement is not true in my opinion "For the Resurrection takes place "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.”

Whether you call it a translation or rapture or ressurection or whatever this scripture is being misread by all sides in my opinion.
The "rapture" or "ressurection" does not happen in the "twinkling of an eye".ONLY Part of the rapture or ressurection happens in the twinkling of an eye .The changing part happens in the twinkling but the rest takes time and because it takes time it will be visable to all people on the earth,
urs staff

I am not quoting myself i am quoting an early church fathers commentary on 1 thess 4 as they had never heard of the rapture they called it the resserection

As I quote other uses of the word rapture in other latin literature and it is shocking

When I quote this I go back to the source and would tend to quote the Greek

Notice the quote of the Latin vulgate as I put the translation side by side and what you realise raptumi isjt the word rapture

If you notice here most of what I have quoted is from other sources

As far as I've read it was invented by a girl names Mary (Margaret) McDonald who was sick with a fever, and in her delirium, she mentioned the rapture and a Jesuit priest grabbed onto it and ran with it.

At least that's the story I've heard.

The word is actually not in the vulgate as I quote the vulgate here in my original post
I quote other uses of that word in Latin

I amazed that noone is shocked about the uses of rapture in literature

In the Wikipedia article it quotes her vision
I don't think the rapture is mentioned I think it was a John Nelson Darby invention

see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived ”“ This is the fiery trial which is to try us. ”“ It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed ”“ but the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest ”“ the love of many will wax cold.
I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive ”“ for it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work ”“ he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth, and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God ”“ and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he ”“ when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but 'tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit ”“ have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan ”“ be full of eyes within -be clay in the hands of the potter -submit to be filled, filled with God. This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. I saw it to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus, who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enters in he shall find pasture. They were bypassing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God.
When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it ”“ they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and a ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross. I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been ”“ the servants of God sealed in their foreheads ”“ great conformity to Jesus ”“ his holy image seen in his people ”“ just the bride made comely by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air ”“ and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen Even so come Lord Jesus."
See also

I also looked up ribero original book as it is Spanish I think the term was originally used by
https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/In_sacram_beati_Ioannis_Apostoli_et_Evan.html?id=fxhL_WXi6fUC&redir_esc=y

I think it was originally use by John Nelson Darby I hate the term rapture

I can show you some more times where it is used in other literature and the term harpizo

The "rapture" or "ressurection" does not happen in the "twinkling of an eye".ONLY Part of the rapture or ressurection happens in the twinkling of an eye .The changing part happens in the twinkling but the rest takes time and because it takes time it will be visable to all people on the earth,

How do you know this statement is not true, that it will take time for all people to hear it? Every single translation at https://biblehub.com/parallel/1_corinthians/15-52.htm shows twinkling or blink but it all happens AT THE LAST TRUMP!

I don't understand your disagreeing with the plainly written word and your limiting of God, Staff. Is God not so great that if He wants a supernatural loud and long blast of the trumpet (or shofar) that the whole earth will hear it, all at one time? A trumpet sound so loud and long that buildings shake and crumble?

I believe that God can make every person on this earth at one time hear the last Trump in the twinkling of an eye!!

God bless you, Staff,
Lisa

I still don't think it is clicking
Even the people who I have done a bible study haven't clicked what this word actually means

1594 G. Chapman Σκíα Νυκτóς sig. Aij, It is an exceeding rapture of delight in the deepe search of knowledge”¥that maketh men manfully indure th'extremes incident to that Herculean labour.
1603 M. Drayton Barrons Wars iii. lviii. 67 Those pleasing raptures from her graces rise, Strongly inuading his impressive breast.
1642 Milton Apol. Smectymnuus in Wks. (1851) III. 287 This manӴsees truth as in a rapture, and cleaves to it.
1744 J. Wesley & C. Wesley Coll. Psalms & Hymns (ed. 3) i. 55 If aught can there enhance their Bliss Or raise their Raptures higher.
1762 O. Goldsmith Citizen of World I. 36 He is instantly in raptures at so great an improvement.

And we want to use this word in church

Howkmng does it take people to click what this word actually means

Hi Lysa,
Its you who are disagreeing with the plainly written text.
It clearly when read carefully says that the changing will be in the twinkling of an eye .I said nothing at all about the Trump or about limiting of God.
What the section clearly says is that this is a process and the writer is explaining in detail the process.What most people are getting wrong is that the "changing" is only a part of the process and is indeed the only part that happens at light speed.All other parts take some time.
A Trump by its very nature is at a least one musical note and if a musical note lasts only the twinkling of an eye then it can not be heard as it is far too quick.
You yourself says as much in your qoute:
" A trumpet sound so loud and long that buildings shake and crumble?"
So its obvious then that the whole or complete rapture or ressurection does not happen in the twinkling of an eye only the changing from corruptable to incorruptable.
As the only reason that people think the ressurection is not seen is because of the shortness or time ie the twinkling of an eye then we can now say with certainty that the ressurection or rapture shown in this passage will be seen by all people.What I am saying is clearly scriptural,the ressurection mentioned here takes time and is a process and only part of it is mentioned as happening at light speed or faster,urs staff

Hi All,
WHY THE EXPLANTION AND THE ORDER OF THINGS
Paul writes to clear up an issue about whether their was a ressurection
A
1 COR 15:12
Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
B
Paul reveals the Mystery of the Ressurection and is saying their are two groups of people asleep and not asleep but that both the asleep and the awake will all be changed

51 Behold, I am telling you a [w]mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed

C
Paul Explains the Order or process,when it will happen and how quick the changing will be.
Paul is saying that when the last trumpet sounds the dead will be raised and we will be changed

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [x]imperishable, and we will be changed.

If you believe the following scripture is the same event then you will have to agree that their is a process.
1 The Lord descends
2 The Dead in Christ rise first
3 The Alive are caught up
The very fact that Paul says "First" and "Then" means that their is an order and that these three things do not happen instantaneously but take at least some time and are step by step.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
King James Version

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

ACTS CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THE ASSENSION TOOK TIME AND THAT CHRIST WOULD COME BACK THE SAME WAY AND IT WILL TAKE TIME AND IS NOT INSTANTANEOUS

9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 "Men of Galilee,” they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

This event described in Corinthians what ever you believe it to be ,which ever timeline you put this scripture in is not instantaneous.One part of it happens instantaneously, in the twinkling of an eye but the rest is visable because it takes time,
urs staff

Both are resserection passages both 1 cor 15 and 1 thess 4

I do not believe in a pre tribulation rapture as I used to go to a church that believed in it

The problem that jesus will be coming 3 times , once to pick up his church and then another time as in the second coming

Sometimes I need ressurecting and we are all sinners saved by grace as I have felt so far from jesus and so under spiritual attack recently

If you understand basically the word rapture literally means rape of the church , as it you look at the word used in any other literature other than the bible that's it's use case

I so wish jesus could ressurect me

Hi Deltadom,
I think that some people think that by disproving the word "rapture" that they disprove that Jesus comes for the Church before the tribulation and vica versa.
Whether Jesus comes before ,during or after the tribulation the word rapture doesnt really matter,its a ressurection .

urs staff

"For I do not wish you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until..." (Rom 11:25a).

Put a circle around the word "until." There is a condition. and here is the point. It is a condition only the Church can meet. The issue of Israel becomes the issue of the Church.

"...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"(Rom 25a).

When God says 'fullness,' He means the completion of all that He has intended. There is a fullness for which God waits, the "calling out of a people for His name, from among every nation" (Acts 15:14). This has always been the mission mandate of the Church. But according to Paul's letter to the Romans, the greatest incentive that God gives the Church to go into all the world and proclaim the gospel is that,

"...the Deliverer will come from Zion" (Rom 9:26a).

When that mission is completed, something will happen independent of Israel's own spiritual condition. The Deliverer is released in the moment that the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Israel is delivered and the Deliverer takes His throne on the holy hill of Zion and rules over the nations. The world is in a hopeless condition until the Lord Himself comes. Only thereafter can there be a new heaven and a new earth wherein dwells righteousness.

It is clear that this view opposes the "pre-tribulation" rapture mentality, a mentality that sees the Church as being removed before the tribulation. It is a widely accepted doctrine, but to challenge it is to be looked upon as challenging some sacrosanct foundational doctrine of the faith. It is as if you are introducing heresy, when it is not a doctrine of the faith at all. Nothing, in our opinion, has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship, maturity and of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation, than the misguided confidence that they will not have to face it!

It is because of this "pre-tribulation" rapture expectation that the Church is presently operating now toward Israel out of guilt in that the Church is removed while the Jew remains to face the music. Anything that issues from the Church that has an ulterior motive, that relieves our conscience, where we operate out of guilt rather than from a priestly place, is not a valid place of ministry. Only priestly ministry is valid. The heart of priestly ministry is that the priest derives no advantage or benefit for himself in his priestly ministration. However, if you are operating out of guilt and a bad conscience, than you are alleviating something for yourself by being condescending to Jews. A lot of the attitudes of the churches toward present Israel are of this condescending kind.

If we, as the Church, elevate and exalt ourselves as something separate, independent or superior to the Jew, then, by that one thing, we are no longer the Church. The Church loses its character when it loses its essential humility. The Church needs to be reminded that we are grafted into THEIR root and that we are made, by the gospel, partakers WITH them. The Church is not some phenomenon independent of Israel; it is the graciousness of God to allow Gentiles to come into THEIR promise, into THEIR hope and into THEIR expectation, which they themselves have lost by default and no longer know. Part of our task is to remind Israel, not verbally, but by being a demonstration of what it means to have been invited into the 'commonwealth of Israel' (Ephe 2:12).

(From "True Fellowship: To Him Be Glory In The Church" - ch 3 -"The Church and the Jew" - p53-55 - by Art Katz - Burning Bush Press - copyright 2003)

Hi docs,

While I enjoy hearing or reading many of the messages from Art Katz, I strongly disagree with his assessment of what and why many believers (perhaps even most) embrace the idea of a gathering of the Bride of Christ before the period when God's wrath is poured out upon the entire earth.

While Dominic might not like the word "rapture" because of much-later connotations associated with it, I prefer describing it as a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ. This is to assumed to take place not before mere "tribulation" -- because we should understand that we will ALWAYS face tribulation in this world -- but THE tribulation of those days (i.e., when the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth).

Again, there is a strong distinction between earthly tribulation that believers face on this planet -- and which they have faced since the beginning of the church -- and that period interpreted to be the "Great Tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out in judgment.

Those who believe in it (or, in my case, lean toward it as a very strong or even reasonably possible event) do not do so for reasons (as Art Katz described) of "guilt" toward Israel or even ulterior motives (such as "easy believism"). Nor do they believe in a "rapture" (again, I prefer "gathering together of the Bride") to avoid the need " (according to Katz) for preparation, discipleship, maturity or of being the Church that can stand in the Last Days and overcome tribulation."

Over the roughly two decades that I've been on SermonIndex, we have seen this topic debated (often fiercely) to the point of exhaustion. I've engaged in some of those debates too. More often than not, I've read through the posts and prayerfully continued studying this matter. After all, it's certainly an important topic.

Yet, after immense amounts of prayer and prayerful study, I've still maintained a very similar stance on the topic. While I am aware of many different views on the matter, I still see a strong possibility for a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ before God's wrath is poured out upon the entire earth.

Now, I am not saying that I have reached an ultimate conclusion in this matter. I simply see it as a very strong possibility -- and one that I can see via the Scriptures. Moreover, this is not because I "want" to believe in it either. I simply want to know the truth of God's Word and not the teachings or traditions of man.

I've always held that we should be aware of ALL possible scenarios in which the end will come. I also think that faithful teachers of God's Word can cover them too -- without necessarily proclaiming a very specific absolute in regard to the timing and manner of the Lord's return.

By covering all possible scenarios (or even our own lack of an ultimate conclusion on the matter), it reminds the church to BE READY. We should be prepared for the end NO MATTER HOW the end comes. This includes being prepared for persecutions and tribulations. This includes being prepared for the period of Great Tribulation (i.e., God's wrath). This also includes living as a Bride who has made herself ready (no matter how or when we are gathered to the Bridegroom).

I've known believers who argued this to the point of ad nauseam. Yet, some of those believers have since passed away from this earthly life. Despite a strong belief in the imminent return (and even a few that thought we were currently in the "seven year tribulation" more than a decade ago), they breathed their last breath on this side of the glass darkly without seeing how it would all come to pass. I suppose that it is death that most of human history will see rather than living on the earth during the final moments of the last days.

For me, it is not necessary to figure it all out anyway. I keep realizing that my focus should be on HIM. I need to continue seeking his face through his Word, prayer, fasting, etc. I may never know with absolute certainty the end of this great mystery and how it will come about (in terms of timing and specificities). Yet, I can spend my life for him. I can still try to spread the Good News so that others are ready to meet him at any time.

Over the last year or two, I've been struck by how so many Jews misunderstood how our Messiah would come. It seems that many read from the Scriptures of a coming King who would rule from Jerusalem that they missed the passages about a humble servant -- God incarnate -- born of a virgin and placed in a manger. He would live on this world and then suffer at the hands of sinners.

Even the apostles (prior to the crucifixion) were a bit confused about all of this. When the Gospels tell of Jesus mentioning his death, we would read of their confusion about it. I've thought that even some of them were likely expecting Jesus to become a conquering king during his time on earth (before the crucifixion).

In fact, one of the things that they asked Jesus after his resurrection (in Acts 1:6) was, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" Notice that they were focused on the many prophecies in which the Messiah would RESTORE THE KINGDOM of Israel. And how did Jesus respond? "He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" (Acts 1:7). He then refocused them on what mattered now -- waiting in Jerusalem for the promise of the Father (that is, the Holy Spirit) and being his witnesses.

I point this out to remind one another that the Jews had access to the Old Covenant Scriptures for hundreds of years following the end of the captivity. They were waiting for the coming of the Messiah. Some groups (like the Essenes and probably the Magi) even expected his arrival based upon the timetable mentioned in the Book of Daniel. Yet, most people weren't expecting Jesus. They were waiting for the Messiah of the Millennial Reign. They weren't expecting the Messiah to become a sacrificial Lamb.

In fact, this is likely why Jesus said, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”) in Matthew 27:46. There, as he was dying on the cross, he quoted Psalm 22 (before it was actually numerically notated as "Psalm 22"). He quoted the first verse of that Psalm -- the one that so clearly prophecied of the suffering and death of the Messiah. Even then, most standing near him didn't understand why he said this (and some even mocked him).

My point is that I don't want to be the person who holds assumptions -- even Scriptural and/or widely held assumptions -- that might prohibit me from considering each possible scenario for the Lord's return. So, I'll continue to study. Yet, I won't let that study interfere with what is vastly more important.

Obviously, we must be ready. But, I don't think that being "ready" means that we will know with absolutely certainty the exact manner and timing of the Lord's return. All that is necessary of me is to be ready no matter how it comes. I should just as ready to lay down my life for him as I should be ready to depart this world at any minute.

"Therefore you also must BE READY, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
- Matthew 24:44

It is not the much later connatations with the word rapture as it was a word used by John Nelson Darby

Art Katz from what I have listened to his sermons didn't believe in a pre tribulation resserection

It would be an entirely different post dealing with the dead sea Scrolls and how closely they got the idea of the Messiah jesus from the first temple period

With current Jews tending towards things like Maimonides as there gold standard and even things like Kabbalah which completely does away with the creation story of genesis

I have associated the wrath of God as hell and eternal torment as there is quite a few different greek words for things like persecution and tribulation

We should be expecting to see the antichrist before Jesus Christ as in 2 thess 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

I was expecting people to be shocked at the use of the word rapture in other literature.

It seems that we have so many heresies today , we don't tend to be shocked anymore

If you read the dead sea Scrolls you understand that they got so many things wrong due with the first coming of Christ and the nature of deception

I think it was the danger of half truths is that you do not know what you are going to get

We live in a world where we have been told that the mark of the beast is this or the mark of the beast is that

That when the thing actually turns up , people because they have been lied to so many times

We have bible prophecies that are vaguely similar to the bible but actually do not involve the actual Bible

It is like fake cheese or fake counterfeit money , we have fake bible prophecy that looks so similar but is vastly different to what the actual Bible actually says

A sign a few degrees of can end you up in another country or a space rocket that is a few degrees of will end up in a failed mission

I for one and one who needs getting back on tract and like Christian in pilgrim's progress who went of the path and ended up in giant despairs castle

We all need to check out every sign

In the silver chair Jill is given signs to follow by aslan and messes up every single sign until the last one

It is hard to know a genuine sign from a fake one

As even during the time of jesus first coming there was so many false messiahs that when the true one came

They were so sick of hearing and skeptical it is the same with jesus second coming

Hi Deltadom,
I think that some people think that by disproving the word "rapture" that they disprove that Jesus comes for the Church before the tribulation and vica versa.
Whether Jesus comes before ,during or after the tribulation the word rapture doesnt really matter,its a ressurection .

______________________

The thing is what people assume is that the word rapture comes from the Latin vulgate and I disproved that with an actual quote from the latin vulgate rather and I bothered to look into the word and where it comes from

Then I looked into other uses of that word

If the church is smart we should ban that word rapture from the vocabulary of the church completely

It makes a difference as if we are looking for Jesus Christ and get the antichrist that is a big difference
If we are always expecting to be dragged out of a world in which we expect tribulation

The early church was born through tribulation and infor one cant handle any tribulation
The early church understandong of the tribulation was to purify the church

We have been lied to on so many issues

Staff what I am trying to get an understanding of what most people think the bible says versus what the bible actually says and the chasm is large

Hi Deltadom,
I admire your wanting to get the proper meaning of the word and I get word may not be scriptural to use.
However when I use it people know exactly the event Im talking about.
Bear in mind it describes the event whether its pre ,mid or post tributlation not just a description of the pre tribulation departure.

In part I have a problem with the post tribulation view that doesnt distinguish between tribulation and the time period "the great tribulation" as in your qoute below.
Again great preachers like Corrie Ten Boon and Billy Graham have had different and opposite experiences when it came to trials and tribulation in their lives.It doeant negate the doctrine of tribulation.

qoute :in which we expect tribulation

The early church was born through tribulation and infor one cant handle any tribulation
The early church understandong of the tribulation was to purify the church

urs staff

Hi staff
I believe in a great tribulation but the actual verses that mention it

Matthew 24:21 N-NFS
GRK: γὰρ τότε θλίψις μεγάλη οἵα
NAS: there will be a great tribulation, such
KJV: great tribulation, such as
INT: indeed then tribulation great such as

Acts 7:11 N-NFS
GRK: Χαναὰν καὶ θλίψις μεγάλη καὶ
NAS: and great affliction [with it], and our fathers
KJV: and great affliction: and our
INT: Canaan and tribulation great and

Revelation 2:22 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτῆς εἰς θλίψιν μεγάλην ἐὰν
NAS: with her into great tribulation, unless
KJV: great tribulation, except
INT: her into tribulation great if

Revelation 7:14 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης
NAS: out of the great tribulation, and they have washed
KJV: great tribulation, and
INT: out of the tribulation great

https://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_2347.htm

There is evidence of great tribulation in scripture 🙂

The problem that I have when we are talking about jesus return in scripture as you have 2 thess 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, note

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ

This passage directly goes against the pre trib rapture idea

2 thess 2
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

This shows that when jesus returns he is destroying the antichrist

My problem is it actually detracts from the Jewish idea of the resserection at the last day

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. View more

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. View more

Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

The bible in the book of revelation talks about 2 resserections and the passages of 1 thess 4 and 1 cor 15

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

I want to be part of the first ressurection not the second one

By disassociating the word rapture with the word resserection you do not put it in a larger context of scripture

If you have ever watched the film risen and understand that when jesus died he was a dying corpse and that when jesus rose and the disciples looked into the eyes of one who risen from the dead , I pray that I can look into the eyes of one who has risen from the dead

I worked in a hospital and saw people die in ICU and delivering food to them , noone thought they would be there. There was people from 22 to 92.

Death is a sure thing and being resserected as even in 1 thess 4

It actually remembers jesus resserection as 1 thess 4 is a resserection passage like 1 cor 15

1 thess 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It is not a hidden doctrine that Paul knew as a hidden doctrine is occultism and the apostles knew about the fact

There was the early church fathers and they didn't write about the pre trib rapture in the creeds as the idea was foreign to them

Nicene creed

And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver-of-Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. And [we believe] in one, holy, catholic and Apostolic Church. We acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, [and] we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen

No reference to the pre trib rapture

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Amen.

Why didn't the apostles or the early church fathers hear about it

Didache (AD 100) "then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, ...but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven." (Didache - Chapter 16)

Justin Martyr (AD 100-168) "O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel;" (First Apology of Justin, Chapter 110)

Irenaeus (AD 140-202) "he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." (Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1)

Tertullian (AD 150-220) "that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, Revelation xviii and that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God; (On the Resurrection of the Flesh, Chapter 25)

Hippolytus (AD 160-240) "That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church, which flees from city to city, and seeks concealment in the wilderness among the mountains," (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61)

Cyprian (AD 200-258) "For you ought to know and to believe, and hold it for certain, that the day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle ... "The time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service…" Nor let any one wonder that we are harassed with increasing afflictions, when the Lord before predicted that these things would happen in the last times," (Epistles of Cyprian, LV, 1,2)
Nor let any one of you, beloved brethren, be so terrified by the fear of future persecution, or the coming of the threatening Antichrist, as not to be found armed for all things by the evangelical exhortations and precepts, and by the heavenly warnings. Antichrist is coming… but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our sufferings and our wounds. (Epistles of Cyprian, LIII, p.722)

Victorinus (AD 269-271) "He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles... The Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, ... three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church." (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 20:1-3)

Hi Deltadom,
I respect your right for a want of a better word to believe in a post tribulation view.I have looked and studied this alot and I come to the conclusion although I dont have the answer to all of the points made by post tribulation believers neither do they have the answer to points I have made on the topic and I still come down on the side of a pre tribulation gathering or whatever you want to call it.

This point which I have made many times but Chrrriss made on this post is important
qoute :
Again, there is a strong distinction between earthly tribulation that believers face on this planet -- and which they have faced since the beginning of the church -- and that period interpreted to be the "Great Tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out in judgment.

Post tribulation believers never get this correct and rely on it to make an untrue assumption about believers who believe in the Pre Trib view,the assumption is that we want to avoid tribulation and want a soft way out.
I would think its fair for me to assume also that this mistake in lumping tribulation as being the same as the period time The Great Tribulation is deliberate by some but either way its not a scriptural nor fair debate point.

Almost all of the Christians I know are pre trib believers but all love the Lord greatly as much as post trib believers and all know by experience that we go through tribulation in our lives ,urs staff

Hi staff do you have some scripture passages or some greek to back up what you say as I used to believe in a pre tribulation rapture

Again, there is a strong distinction between earthly tribulation that believers face on this planet -- and which they have faced since the beginning of the church -- and that period interpreted to be the "Great Tribulation" in which God's wrath is poured out in judgment

θλῖψις thlipses is the word for tribulation in Greek
https://biblehub.com/greek/2347.htm

Wrath ὀργή
https://biblehub.com/greek/3709.htm

Staff can you better explain your defeater argument
As you have other Greek words for persecution as

διώκω
https://biblehub.com/greek/1377.htm

Hi Deltadom,
Jesus gives two examples about his coming.The days of Noah and the days of Lot.
Point 1
From this passage we can see that Jesus is talking about the "days" that just preceed his coming.He gives two examples of what the "days" will be like just before he comes.
In both examples we see that the world was similar to what it is today ,people are marrying(not Lot) ,drinking, buying and selling, planting and building.They werent after going through a period of time called the Great Tribulation nor were they after going through a time of "God's Wrath" poured out.
Point 2
In both examples they were people who were scoffing at the very idea of Judgement and if they had just gone through the Great Tribulation they would know exactly what Judgement was like and wouldnt have the attitude they had.
Point 3
In both examples Jesus carefully chose Judgement couldnt happen until the righteous namely Noah and Lot were taken out.In both examples he carefully uses the term "until the day".The moment the righteous were taken out then immediate Judgement.
Point 4
In both examples Lot and Noah went upwards out of the place they were in.Noah's Ark went up and Lot and his family went up out of Sodom indicated the deliverance is above.

Matthew
37As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.…

Luke
27People were eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. 28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.…
urs staff