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What Cessationists (Really) Believe

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drifter Jul 29, 2023

To start, let me say, I am NOT a cessationist. I believe the sign gifts still continue to this day. I think there is a horrible amount of abuse, manipulation, and deception in charismatic circles regarding the gifts of the Spirit, as to their proper use, function, and distribution in the body of Christ. Many Charismatics and Pentecostals have a badly imbalanced view of sign gifts; for example, tongues is held up as the pinnacle of spirituality, when is is listed near the end of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 (interpretation of tongues being last.) Prophecy is more important than tongues according to Paul (1 Corinthians 14.) And tongues is not given to every believer (1 Corinthians 12:29,30.)

I have heard some people unfairly straw man the cessationist position, saying that they do not believe miracles happen anymore. They do believe in miracles, they just believe the "sign" gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age (when the apostle John died.)

There are many exemplary christians who hold the cessationist position, like Paul Washer and Voddie Baucham, These people preach the gospel and see people born again. I think they shy away from charismatic christianity because of all the excesses and abuse they see, and the absolute dearth of discernment.

N
narrowpath Jul 29, 2023

In my last church because I preached you must be filled with the Holy Spirit after you came to faith. The granddaughter of the other leader received the gift of the Holy Spirit after I advised her to pray until she got it. This made him so furious that I got kicked out of the church. They accused me of elevating myself with a special experience implying they did not have the Holy Spirit.

I heard Paul Washer once sharing is experience how he got filled with the Holy Spirit, yet he believes speaking in tongues is only applicable in some exceptional situations, like missionaries ministering in a place where they do not know the local language.

John McArthur, Phil Johnson, Justin Peters, and Chris Rosebourough are some the most ardent cessastionists who do not leave out an opportunity to lash out at those who use the gifts of the Spirit. They flatly deny what the Bible teaches, and they will be held accountable for debunking the gifts God clearly gave to the church for building it up, and for confusing, unsettling, and excluding believers who received from God what they earnestly asked for. This is no small thing because they have a large following and deprive millions of believers of what God wants for all his children. As renowned bible teachers they should know better. They have no excuse. They elequently teach doctrine but they know little of the power of God, they do not know what is at their disposal.

1.Cor 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues.

1.Thess 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not despise prophecies. 21T

It is forbidden to forbid speaking in tongues

Time is short, perilious times are ahead Christ is coming back soon. We need the Holy Spirit to understand the word, overcome sin, maintan joy and peace, find guidance, endure persecution, stand firm in temptation, advance in sanctification, heal the sick, cast out demons and witness Christ with everything available to us.

Will not the Holy Spirit be grieved just as a lover is grieved when the beloved rejects his gift? Does not the rejection of the precious gift of God leave us as paupers?

Nobody who genuinely speaks in tongues or prophesies has to apologize. I know that there is a lot of fake use and abuse, I know that some people may have a genuine manifestation of the gifts but do not lead holy lifes. I saw it first hand but this should never lead to is abolishion. We must learn its propper use, and correct misuse just as Paul instructed the Corinthians.

There is not only abuse but there are countess churches and and believers who use it properly but you only hear about the abuses.

In fact there are so many videos featuring extreme charismatic manifestations followed by a warning by one of the above teachers to avoid the gifts at all cost lest you become one of these lunies. That is really bad theology and scaremongering.

D
drifter Jul 29, 2023

Narrowpath, I said I do believe in the sign gifts. I believe in miracles. I believe in prophecy and tongues. When John MacArthur and others deny the gifts, I believe they are in the wrong. However I am not willing to say they are not saved. I see them, despite their flaws, preaching the gospel.

But up until just over a hundred years ago the sign gifts were largely inoperative. Yet people were saved. There were revivals, and people baptized with the Holy Spirit. Great revivals in history may have differed in some details, but what they had in common was the word of God preached clearly, deep conviction of sin, serious repentance, genuine salvations, and lasting fruit in the lives of the converted. Some revivals did not have tongues, prophecy, physical healings etc. (And some did, praise God!) But they had what matters eternally. What does Paul say in 1 Corinthians 13? The gifts will fade away. But salvation is forever.

I would choose a cessationist teacher over someone who is, say, a billionaire and preaches that God wants to make you wealthy, or a preacher who says that you are in sin if you are not healed, or a "prophet" who says he flies to heaven on a regular basis and says he flew into Donald Trump's chest and saw that Donald's DNA is the word of God, or that God has a theme park in heaven where you can ride dinosaurs. (I am not making any of this up; these are all real examples of POPULAR charismatic preachers and teachers. And what concerns me is that these teachers are connected to prosperity/NAR teachers.)

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deogloria Jul 30, 2023

There is a lot I could say about this topic, try to keep it short
With all this confusion going on today I believe the Apostle Paul would tell us again:
"for I made the decision to know nothing [that is, to forego philosophical or theological discussions regarding inconsequential things and opinions while] among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified [and the meaning of His redemptive, substitutionary death and His resurrection]." (1 Corinthians 2:2)Ampl

We have a low understanding of the Gospel.
Many Christians might not really know Christ on a personal level.
After a few decades as a Christian I begin more and more to grasp His mercies and His unconditional love for me.
He is sovereign and can decide if He wants to heal my "thorn in the flesh" and what gifts he wants to give me.
I learnt His grace is sufficient for me.
Many preachers today would probably only distract me from getting to know my Lord better.
One gift I might have is the gift to discern what is real and edifying
Often times I'm rather grieved when I hear about new reports about some big things happening, often it just doesn't sound right.

Jesus Himself performed many miracles. But He also "began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida!..." (Matthew 11:20,21)

Another sign is the boasting that's going on.
"As for me, may I never boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world has been crucified, and the world’s interest in me has also died."(Galatians 6:14)

That old rugged cross...that we don't hear much about anymore.

Markus

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narrowpath Jul 31, 2023

Hi Nigel,

I agree with you, I'd prefer a John MacAthur over any strange teacher, who is puffed up about his revelations. 1.Cor 12:7, Col 2:18.

I would not say that John MacAthur is not saved, nor would I dare to say that anyone of these so called NAR guys is not saved either.

Sadly, the kingdom of God suffers loss because of both non-use and abuse and distortion of the gifts of the Spirit.
It grieves me to the core when people say you are not filled with the Spirit when you do not speak in tongues or even you pcannot get married (yes, I heard this). Afraid not to be able to be counted as brother of forbidden to marry they take on learning gibberish, start with babbling "banana" backwards.

In my last church I addressed these error, but the damage was already done.

Michael Brown does a good job on bringing clarity.
He had a respectful discussion with James White but Justin Peters declined an invitation by Michael Brown to debate him. I wished some would lay hands on him and heal him. Michael receives a lot of flag and mockery (wretched radio) from from the other camp.

Only the devil rejoices over these things. This issue is the cause for thousands of church and denomination splits.

This was especially painful in my country Germany, where they issued the infamous "Berlin Declaration" in 1909 denouncing the gifts of the Spirit in the aftermath of a genuine revival.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Declaration_(1909)

During this genuine revival some strange manifestations happened indeed, as you often see in true revivals, however they did not characterize the whole movement and the wholesale condemnation is exaggerated and grossly unjustified.

Ironically we had another "Berlin Declaration" 36 years later for the defeat of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Declaration_(1945)

Some people argue that these 2 declaration were related.

The wounds of the first declaration still show their scars to today.
The Nazi terror regime, the holocaust and war atrocities committed and received and defeat still affect our nation today.

D
drifter Aug 1, 2023

I get so tired of the arguments; all I want is brotherly love and unity. Believe me when I say this has caused me many sleepless nights. I know some may see me as unloving or pharisaical.

I prayed a long time ago, "Lord, I don't want to 'set the bar' lower or higher than You set it, but only where You set it. I only want to discern by Your word, and no other standard, and let me have as much love and grace as possible when I disagree with someone."

It does hurt when people say I don't have the Holy Spirit because I don't speak in tongues, or they treat me like I don't have faith because I have health problems, or they say my opinion only means something if I've led scores of people to Christ (I have led a grand total of 2 people to Christ; Noah only led 7 people to Jesus in 120 years, Jeremiah only had 2 converts, Jesus Himself has 500 people after His resurrection that trusted Him, and some of them were pretty shaky, but hey, results are all that matter, so I guess Joseph Smith or Muhammad outshone the Son of God, by that logic.) Many times in the Old Testament the true prophets could barely get anyone to listen to them, but the false prophets had crowds of people flocking to them.

But I have to keep warning people against false doctrine; I am commanded by God to do so. "When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand." Ezekiel 3:18

The puritans said that the chief concern of any man of God is to guard the church against false doctrine. Scripture agrees with this. "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." John 10:11-13

I know this verse applies directly to Jesus, but does it not also apply to true shepherds (pastors)?

As for Michael Brown, I love him, but he is on record saying that Kenneth Copeland preaches a false gospel, but that he is a true brother in Christ. This is mental gymnastics and dangerous to the sheep. I recall Justin Peters saying that he declined to debate Michael Brown because Dr. Brown already knows his positions and debate would be pointless. Justin had gone to word of faith-type churches seeking healing when he was younger. Because of their errant teaching on healing (God always wants you healed no matter what and if you're not you're living in sin and unbelief) he is jaded towards this particular aspect of Christ's ministry. Suffering in God's will, even sickness, is part of God's plan for His sheep. God will heal Justin, but in His time, whether that's now (temporary), or in eternity (perfect and eternal.)

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deogloria Aug 1, 2023

First I feel I need to say something about that Declaration from 1909
Wikipedia is wrong, they not even link to the original document !
They are not interested in unbiast information
Again it shows me that we have to test all things.

NP, also your comments are not accurate
Here is an article with the actual document about half way down.
(For those who don't understand German you might have AI or an App who can do it for you )
https://bibelbund.de/2014/12/100-jahre-berliner-erklaerung-teil-1/

Some of those "Prophets" believe that Document was responsible for some of the things that happened in WW2
Completely absurd. They became "accusers of the bretheren"

Jesus said: Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
Truth will divide:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXafiauD8MM

Our main focus needs to be on Christ and the Gospel
My Hope is Not in Myself but in Christ - Paul Washer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ941ERut2M

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narrowpath Aug 1, 2023

Mind you, Germany had its precursor in in biblical history, where Israel as a whole rejected the visitation of their Messiah and mocked the believers gathered at Pentecost "full of sweet wine"

Later the disciples were driven out of the land but 70 a.D the nation as a whole ceased to exist until 1948, Jerusalem was ravished and the survivors driven into the diaspora.

There are definitely paralells in the history of Germany and Israel. We both experienced God's wrath and the miracuolous withdrawl of his heavy hand.

Even beforehand, though claiming to be the host land of the reformation, German theological scholars promoted "higher bible criticism and polluted the minds of aspiring ministers.

This mean-spirited document had the effect that Pentecostals in Germany in past decades were treated as outcasts by mainstream Evangelicals. Thankfully during the 80 Evangelicals opened up in part to their pentecostal brothers, but the divide still exists and I felt it first hand.

If Satan cannot stop sinners to come to faith he will try to prevent believers to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit in a twofold way. 1) By denouncing and trashing it 2) By counterfeing it and promoting extremes.

There are those who claim to be the guardians of orthodoxy who adhere to a Father, son and Holy Bible trinity and those who always see visions and dreams and pursue the spectacular.

Would that one day the two camps come together and learn from each other, have their errors corrected and embrace Word and Spirit.

Paul commended the Corinthian for the abundance of gifts and reprimanded them for abuse and their lack of grounding in the sriptures. He also harshly rebuked the Galatians that they began in the Spirit and turn to OT legalism. I find it amazing how balanced and unbiased Paul is able to address these things.


And yes, I have to agree that Michael Brown failed to distance himself from Kenneth Copeland, but aren't we Christians a tad to quick to accuse a brother with the sin of association? It goes like "this guy is friend with that guy who spoke at someone elses church who once shook the hand of the pope."

For those interested, here is a Google translation of the so called "Berlin Declaration of 1909"

The undersigned brethren raise their voices in warning against the so-called Pentecostal movement.

1. We have come to the following conclusion before the Lord, after serious joint examination of a vast amount of reliable sources:

a) The movement is inseparable from the movement of Los Angeles, Christiania, Hamburg, Kassel, Grossalmerode. Attempts at denying the connection must fail because of the facts at hand.

b) The so-called Pentecostal movement is not from above but from below; it has many phenomena in common with spiritism. Demons work in her who, cunningly led by Satan, mix lie and truth in order to deceive the children of God. In many cases, the so-called "spiritually gifted" have subsequently proven to be posessed.

c) The personal loyalty and devotion of individual leading brothers and sisters, nor the healings, tongues, prophecies, etc., which accompany the movement, cannot mislead us into believing that this movement originates from below. Such signs are often associated with similar movements been connected, e.g. with Irvingianism, even with "Christianism”, Science” (Christian Science) and Spiritism.

d) The spirit in this movement produces spiritual and physical power effects out, yet it is a false spirit. He revealed himself as such. The grotesque manifestations such as falling, face twitching, shaking, screaming, disgusting loud laughter, etc. appear in gatherings this time as well. We leave it open how much of it is demonic, how much is hysterical or soulish - - such phenomena are not God-worked.

e) The spirit of this movement introduces itself through the Word of God, but pushed it into the background by so-called "prophecies" as referred to in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22.
In general, there is a great danger in these prophecies; as they don't just contain obvious contradictions, but lure brothers and their ministries into slavish dependence on them.
These "Messages" in the way they are transmitted, resemble the utterances of spiritistic mediums. The transmitters are mostly women. This has led at various points in the movement to a situation where, contrary to the clear prophecies of Scripture, women, even young girls, have taken center stage.

2. It is impossible for us to recognize such a movement as a gift from God. Of course, it cannot be ruled out that in these meetings the proclamation of the word of God by its inherent power might still produce some fruit. Inexperienced believers will be deceived by the blessings of the Word, but this does not abrogate the lying character of the whole movement 2 Cor. 11, 4/3/14.

3. The church of God in Germany must acknowledge their negligence that this movement could find so much acceptance. We all bow as partakers in this guilt because of our deficiencies and omissions, especially in respect to intercession. The lack of biblical knowledge and foundation, of holy earnestness and vigilance, a superficial conception of sin and grace, of conversion and rebirth, an arbitrary interpretation of the Bible, a lust for exciting manifestations, the tendency to exaggerate, but above all self-importance - all this paved the way for this movement.

4. Particulary this unbiblical teaching of the so-called "pure heart” proved to be disastrous in many circles and conducive to the so-called Pentecostal movement. It is the error that "indwelling sin" has been rooted out in a pardoned and sanctified Christian (sinless perfection). We stand firm in the truth that the Lord will and can protect his people from stumbling and falling (1 Thess. 5:23; Jud. 24:25; Hebr. 13:21) and that the same have power to rule over sin through the Holy Spirit. But a "pure" heart, which rises beyond Paul’s humble words, that despite God-given, lasting protection: "I am not aware of anything myself, but I am not justified by that", a mortal human cannot posess on earth. Even the most advanced Christian has to bow before God, who alone is the judge of the true state of hearts, cf. 1 Cor. 4.4. "If we say we have no sin, so we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us,” 1 John 1:8.

In truth the believer in Christ receives a spotless heart, but the heresy that the heart in itself can attain a state of "sinless perfection” has already brought many of God's children under the curse of insincerity about their sin, deceived them about sins that are still in their minds, in their omissions, or in their falling short of the high standard that God commandments set in their lives.
It cannot be stressed enough to keep our eyes from being clouded by man-made sanctification, or by an imagined doctrine of the removal of our sinful nature. A lack of repentance over one's own obstructs the way to new blessings and brings us under the influence of the enemy. Regretful present-day experience shows that where one claims to have attained a state of sinlessness, the believer can become incapable of admitting mistakes, let alone confessing them. Another sad consequence of this false sanctification teaching is the disparagement of biblical, God-ordained marital union, where conjugal intercourse between husband and wife is rendered incompatible with true sanctification, cf. Genesis 1:28 and Eph. 5.31.

5. Pastor Jonathan Paul is the public leader of this so-called "Pentecostal movement” in Germany. He is also the main representative of the aforehead mentioned rejected unbiblical teachings. We love him as a brother and would him to serve his company of followers in truth. It is painful for us to take a public stand against him. While we talked to him there was no lack of clarifications and admonitions within the narrower and wider circle of brothers. As this all proved to be in vain, we must now for His sake and God's sake hereby declare: We, the undersigned brethren, can no longer as recognize him as leader and teacher of the church of Jesus. We submit him in love, faith and hope to the correcting grace of the Lord.

6. We believe there was only one Pentecost, Acts. 2. We believe in the Holy Spirit who will abide in the church of Jesus for all eternity, cf. John 14:16. We are aware that the church of God did always receive and still needs renewed visitations of grace from the Holy Spirit. The admonition of the apostle applies to each individual: "Be filled with the Spirit!" Ephesians 5:18. The path to this end is and will always be our perfect communion with the crucified, risen and exalted Lord. In him dwells the fullness of incarnate divinity, from whom we take grace upon grace. We're not expecting a new Pentecost; we wait for the return of the Lord.

We hereby ask all our brothers and sisters for the sake our blessed Lord and his cause, which Satan wants to corrupt: Stay away from this movement! Anyone of you who has come under the power of this spirit, renounce it and ask God for forgiveness and deliverance. Do not despair in battles, through
which perhaps some will have to go through. Satan will not easily abandon his dominion.
But assured: The Lord will carry you through! He has already freed many a brother some and wants to give you the true spiritual armor.

Our firm confidence in this difficult time is this: God's people and you, too dear brothers and sisters, who are shocked by these words of us and the facts we presented, will emerge blessed and victorious from these battles! The Lord will give light to the simple and humble and will strengthen and preserve them.

We rely on Jesus, our Arch-Shepherd. If we give to the Lord and his words the room he deserves, he will complete the work of his spirit, that he started so mercifully in Germany to his glorious, God-ordained goal. We rely on Him who says: "My Children and the work of my hands be committed to me!” Isaiah 45:11.

Berlin, September 15, 1909

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