Bare Minimum and Christian ?

i heard a sermon today where the speaker said that there are bare minimum" Christians who just want "fire insurance" and are true believers even though they don't love Jesus. The speaker is a part of the apostolic movement and I'm wondering if this is a commonly held view in that movement. I think I know the opinion of most posters on this site but am wondering if this is a widespread doctrine or narrow. If any one has knowledge on this, would appreciate understanding how prevailing it is in the body.

Well there has to be a continuum of sorts, right? Every true Christian has up and down seasons. What you are really asking is where do you draw the line? I suppose only God can answer that question.

Hi Todd.

Didn’t Jesus draw the line to the unbelievers by his declarations that unless you love Him more than family, money, even your own life that you cannot be His disciple as in enter into following Him, being with Him, entering the Kingdom ?

He did but there is still a continuum and a growth. There is grace for human weakness.

Robert,

Out of curiosity, since you have drawn the proverbial line in the sand with that command of Jesus, where do you honestly stand in the faith?

It's easy to hold up a mirror to others, harder to look at our own reflections.

If your answer is you have done all those things, well this one thing you lack, sell all and follow Him.

You can't use one of Jesus commands as a salvific standard, without them all, that is cherry picking and James is clear, if you break one, you're guilty of all.

Agreed, but His bare minimum and human bare minimum seems markedly different and my question was whether His bare minimum allows for someone who doesn’t love Him at Al, much less more than everything else in life. There is a great ministry needed in the church to help those who think they are born again figure out if that is true or not. The gospels and 1 John are filled with texts that help people in the church help in that process. It is a critical process especially in days of deception, false teachers and teachings and itching ears. It’s not to exclude others out of arrogance, but rather to preach His standards/ work of regeneration so people who aren’t there yet can focus on getting there as opposed to spending years deceived and being deceived. All in love and care for souls and not condemnation. This kind of ministry is so very needed in many countries. It would break a lot of hearts to see the spiritual mess that poor teaching, no matter how sincere, has created.

Well I notice the entire topic of this thread changed when we can't wield the law at other people.

One of the largest issues in modern Christendom is that men think they can help other men with the question of their new birth. The church operates largely like Jesus is still dead in His tomb and the Holy Spirit was never sent.

No man can do anything to assure another man of his salvation, only the Holy Spirit can do this.

Didn’t intend to cherry pick. I hate that when done. I was focusing on the sermon that I referenced and the quote I referenced. The idea of loving Jesus more than all is the very foundation of all the other standards/commands. You can sell all your goods but if you don’t have love….. The Father loves you because you love me (Jesus)…… if you love me you will obey my commands…..,He whom I have forgiven much loves me much and so on.

As for how I’m doing , I’m not sure you are really concerned for me but accusing so I will just say that I have been forgiven much. :)

Brother E.

The question of being born again is all about whether He lives in you by the Spirit. There is much effort by Jesus, Paul, Peter and John in the Gospels, Epistles and even Revelation at helping people discern whether they are born again, new creations, and have His indwelling Spirit and the resultant joy, peace and righteousness (especially love evidenced in so many areas of life as a Christian that He produces. A great deal of teaching, preaching and discipleship must by necessity incorporate and even emphasize the teachings of Christ through men in this area of what is a truly born again Christian.

Here is an example:

1 Joh 3:9 - No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.

1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother and sister.

1 John 3:11 - For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we are to love one another;

It is apparently supposed to be "obvious” who are the children of God. Practicing righteousness at its most foundational level is loving God (Father Son and Spirit) more than all. Practicing it means starting there and growing in greater degrees and measures with, as Todd points out, an occasional season of decline and forgiveness as we strive and make every effort unto it but fail at times.

But the point of the passage is ….. that the life of the child of God is obvious to the spiritual in its practice of righteousness, especially love. If it’s obvious, then we can help others discern where they are and help them by encouraging in the love He shed abroad in their hearts (His love for Jesus and others) when they were born again. Call that law if you will. I call that love from a pure heart, good conscience and sincere faith living unto the law of Christ.

A Bible teacher I respect puts it this way:

"One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely. This is what happens when one hears, believes, and does not rebel against the proclamation of Christ's Kingship. Baptism is the public submission to the Crown, and a pledge to loyally follow Him until death. Many reduce the Gospel to a decree of justification only. However, justification, in the context of the Kingdom of Christ, is simply the amnesty granted by the King to penitent rebels, as they return in submission to the Authority they formerly spurned.

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.”

i heard a sermon today where the speaker said that there are bare minimum" Christians who just want "fire insurance" and are true believers even though they don't love Jesus. The speaker is a part of the apostolic movement and I'm wondering if this is a commonly held view in that movement. I think I know the opinion of most posters on this site but am wondering if this is a widespread doctrine or narrow. If any one has knowledge on this, would appreciate understanding how prevailing it is in the body.

But!! That doesn't mean that just because someone starts out with said fire insurance, they don't (somewhere along the line) learn to fall in love with the Lord! This is the grace and mercy of the new covenant.

Guys, I totally get your point. However, and it’s a critical however, everyone will know (it will be evident immediately, that you are a disciple of Jesus by the love we have for His brethren. How much more a love for Jesus. What does it mean to you that "His love is shed abroad in the hearts of those who have been justified (born again).” Romans 4 and then Romans 5. Does His love include a love for His Son supreme to all ? Does His love get shed abroad when we believe or is faith naked apart from love of God that is supernatural. No offense whatsoever, but the notion of one coming to Jesus for fire insurance is real faith and can later grow over time into love isn’t based in any verse I know at all. Todd and Lisa, please give me a verse for your view otherwise and it will honestly change my views. I’m not locked in. Just express in Scripture. That is easier to embrace. Not trying to be difficult. In fact, John speaks in chapter 3
of 1 John for the express purpose of helping people know they have eternal life. It’s not an 80 % thing Todd. The Holy Spirit set forth the standard. If you guys need a persuasion of my intent in my question and challenge, I labor in difficulty in trying to bring many. I’m not about excluding or legalism. Too many lost souls where I am for that. It once again, if Jesus set the standard, why do we modify or set aside.

Sorry for double post. I tend to be a smart phone idiot.

Maybe you guys believe there is a difference, at least in timing, between a believer and a disciple ?

Why are preachers selling "fire insurance"? Is that the Great Commission? No wonder there is no love for Jesus and the Kingdom of God.

I think my last post pretty much is my view. I think it is possible that a person’s initial conversion might be due to being scared into worrying about their own skin (which is why I am not a huge fan of fire and brimstone preaching)

However if the conversion is real (big if) there will be a desire to follow the Lord for who He is and not what He can do for them.

"Love” is a hard word to define when it comes to love for Jesus. Some people may want to serve him but perhaps struggle with the love part. I think this may especially true for men, no offense ladies.

I’ve always struggled with command to Love God with all your heart etc. How do you command someone to love? However, they can be commanded to obey, serve, honor, respect. As a person grows in their faith they will grow to love the Lord. If they do not, they are likely not truly saved.

To answer your question regarding disciples, true Christians are disciples (the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch). There are kindergarten disciples and post- grad disciples.

"Love” is a hard word to define when it comes to love for Jesus. Some people may want to serve him but perhaps struggle with the love part. I think this may especially true for men, no offense ladies.

Love is a committal of the will and a total devotion of oneself to God. Or as Thomas Aquinas said, love is "willing the highest good" of the other person. Emotions are only (or can be) a periphery aspect of love. So women are not more capable of love than men. I think that a lot of what is called "love" is total bunkum, especially romantic love. Agape love (God's love) is the real deal; all other love (philia, "brotherly love", eros "romantic love", storge "familial love") is powered by agape, or it is not real.

We need to stop getting our definitions of love from the world or our own experience, and start relying on the scriptures. We need to let God, by His Spirit, reveal that love in our hearts. The world knows NOTHING of what love is. The form of love worldlings have is about as real as a three dollar bill.

Then perhaps "love” is the wrong word to use. Most people have no idea of all the various Greek subtleties of the word. Why not simply say total commitment and devotion?

Love is the right word, it is our understanding of it that needs to be corrected. People talk of "falling in love", "falling out of love", etc. when all they mean is strong emotions. I won't cede a biblical word to the world just because they think they can co-opt it.

People have to understand that love IS total commitment and devotion. That's the true meaning, not the fake, plastic, Hollywood version. So when we say "love", the first thing that pops into their minds shouldn't be their girlfriend or some squishy emotion; they should think of the God that loves them dying on a cross to save them.

Reading over this thread several times while following it, it occurred to me that what actually is being discussed is margin… how much-how little.
Of love, faith, devotion, perseverance etc…

Where we find in scripture two extraordinary examples with Stephen (martyr) and those amongst the Corinthian Church, which illustrate the two extremes of these attributes.

The reason ultimately is (at least from my study/experience) exactly what Robert suggested in referencing Romans 5:5 -
So the question is, has a person received the love of God,… or to put it in a more accessible way- has a person received Gods love ?

interestingly 2 Thess 2 talks about those whom would "not receive a love of the truth, that they might be saved”
My mind naturally associates truth with Jesus, so it’s a love for Jesus that we must receive to be saved….
But who’s love? is there a biblical precedent for this ??

Yup-
John 17
The most intimate portrait of Jesus’ prayer life that we ever get, which He Himself summarized, even culminated His prayer by asking the Father in a way not previously seen, where Jesus begins this stanza with "O righteous Father”
This gives me pause and I allocate greater value to what’s about to be spoken-

25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: ((((that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them))))

Likewise

15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, ((((the love of the Father is not in him.)))
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, ((((is not of the Father))), but is of the world.

So it’s the Fathers love in us that is the objective-

6 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; ((((which is Christ in you, the hope of glory))))

Christ being formed in us is the product of us receiving the Fathers love….

We can tell where we are now or do a personal audit or examination of our faith by following the above passage from 1 John as well James …

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

So if we love the world, we have/are not receiving the love of God/Truth -
Where if we love Jesus the world will hate us-