Perseverance of saints

I want to know what are the opposing argument for perseverance of saints. I am not a Calvinist. But I don't find any valid argument against Perseverance of saints.

I am talking about rest of TULI(P) but only P.

Even Armenians believe that we are eternally secure. None of us believe that they are currently insecure. But we also believe that we can sin. But we believe that God will grant us repentance. How is it different from Perseverance of saints?

I see that we are willing to believe perseverance about our salvation but we are unwilling to believe the same with regard to others. We are unable to believe that others who are truly born again will also repent from their sins by the power of Holy Spirit resulting in perseverance.

I am not here to start a debate. Just trying to understand how we can reject this doctrine.

I think there are enough warnings in the Bible against falling away, apostasy, and being deceived that to hold to a 'once saved, always saved' creed is foolhardy in the extreme.

-Daniel

I think there are enough warnings in the Bible against falling away, apostasy, and being deceived that to hold to a 'once saved, always saved' creed is foolhardy in the extreme.

I agree with you. But Perseverance of Saints is different from OSAS. OSAS is an extreme. Lets not get into the extremes here.

According to Baptist faith and message 2000, we read this -
All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end.
Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Here if you read, it is not talking about everyone being saved. It is talking only about those sanctified by His Spirit. They may sin, suffer loss but they will be brought to repentance and be saved in the end.

Is it not what we believe about ourselves? Why is it difficult to believe about others the same way?

I think that there is a tension that is perhaps necessary. There is such a thing as taking the Lord for granted and thinking we are 'trusting' the Lord when in fact, we are being negligent in doing our part in staying connected. And of course, there is the danger of thinking it is all up to us and not appropriating the grace of God or His Spirit to live the Christian life. I think a danger exists in presenting a doctrine of 'perseverance of the saints' because someone could think they can relax and no matter what poor choices they make, even PERSISTING in those wrong choices, everything will be fine. So yes, we trust God knowing He is good and faithful but we also do our part in the relationship and HOLD ON to Him.

And I do think that in the end, people do interpret 'perseverance of the saints' as 'once saved always saved'. Too much of that doctrine is steeped in divine determinism which says people don't have free will and our fate is determined ahead of time regardless of what we want or choose.

-Daniel

The believer is secure. A unbeliever is not secure. There is no simpler way to say it.

And of course, there is the danger of thinking it is all up to us and not appropriating the grace of God or His Spirit to live the Christian life. I think a danger exists in presenting a doctrine of 'perseverance of the saints' because someone could think they can relax and no matter what poor choices they make, even PERSISTING in those wrong choices, everything will be fine. So yes, we trust God knowing He is good and faithful but we also do our part in the relationship and HOLD ON to Him.

Agreed, yes people can consider themselves saved when they are not. But just because this truth can be manipulated, we cannot suppress it. For example gifts of the holy spirit are counterfeited the most. Yet most of us still believe in the gifts.

The Baptist Creed that I posted clearly stresses on freewill for us to fall from grace. But it also states that God will not let you go but will bring you to repentance.

We have all sinned even after coming to Christ. But we have also repented from those sins which now we are ashamed of taking part in it. But we will also give glory to God for bringing us to repentance. We will never say that somehow we repented from those sins by our own doing. We will acknowledge that our repentance is totally the Lord's work.

We also believe that in future too when we fall, God will faithfully bring us to repentance.

Now why do we not accept it as a theology saying, a true believer will always be brought to repentance by God? This is perseverance of saints. We are not taking freewill out of picture here.

//Now why do we not accept it as a theology saying, a true believer will always be brought to repentance by God? This is perseverance of saints. We are not taking freewill out of picture here. //

Because if this is true then the warnings in scripture against apostasy make no sense. It would be like warning against something that could never happen.

Because if this is true then the warnings in scripture against apostasy make no sense. It would be like warning against something that could never happen.

If we consider the warning about apostasy in scriptures then we should all be afraid of apostasy and live with fear. But personally we all find a security in Christ. My question is why are we not generalizing this security? we only apply this security selfishly to ourselves but reluctant to apply for others.

You bring a very good point about warning scriptures. What if these warnings are a way for God to bring us back to safety? What if the warnings are how God makes us secure?

My point is we do not see this warning as contradicting our security in Christ. We see warning and security coexisting in scripture. What if security triumphs warnings and warnings are a way to make us secure?

For example we often give some warnings to our children. Those warnings are the way we produce seriousness in them. We definitely do not want those warnings to come true in their lives.

Jeremiah 32:40 - "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

In the new covenant, a new heart and a spirit of fear of the Lord has been placed in us per the passage above to cause us to heed the very real danger and warnings of falling away (Ezekiel 36). The born again ( not helpful to say "believers” as many are not born again who "believe”) respond when His Spirit provokes their heart with fear of God’s wrath for being an apostate by continual disobedience . The danger of falling in unbelief and nort pursuing love and righteousness in difficult times is real. The warnings and consequences are real. The new heart has been created and a spirit given that preserves and turns in response to a very real possibility.

Israel in the Old Covenant has warnings not to test the Lord but lacked the loyal heart, the willing spirit and the fear of the Lord and abandoned Him in their disobedience. HE says they lacked the fear of the Lord and so He gave us at new birth a new heart and right spirit to cause us to persevere in faith and obedience and this preserve us.

At least that is what Scripture says.

Consider the seeds that fell on rocky places in the Parable of the Sower.

Matt. 13 ”“
That day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea…………And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds …………fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away…………The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away…………

Note that there was a "new birth” and a "new creation”: A plant sprang up from the seed.

It withered away because it had no deep "root”.

If believers are firmly rooted in Christ, they will finish the race.

Col. 2:6 ”“
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

We just have to grow deeper and deeper into Christ. This is the way to eternal life and glory and the fullness of God. It is the way to joy and peace and rest. Why do we not want it?

There is no security in running after all other teaching on eternal security.

Hi Jade,

Consider the seeds that fell on rocky places in the Parable of the Sower.

Matt. 13 ”“
That day Jesus went out of the house and was sitting by the sea…………And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds …………fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away…………The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away…………

Note that there was a "new birth” and a "new creation”: A plant sprang up from the seed.

It withered away because it had no deep "root”.

If believers are firmly rooted in Christ, they will finish the race.

Paul addresses something similar in Romans 11. Instead of mentioning the sower, he refers to the "grafting in" within the vine of "the people he foreknew" (Romans 11:2):

* * * * * * *

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry
14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, BUT FEAR.

21 FOR IF GOD DID NOT SPARE THE NATURAL BRANCHES, NEITHER WILL HE SPARE YOU.
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, PROVIDED YOU CONTINUE IN HIS KINDNESS. OTHERWISE, YOU TOO WILL BE CUT OFF.

23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, FOR GOD HAS THE POWER TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.
24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Romans 11:11-24 (ESV)

* * * * * * *

Note verses 20-24.

Hi Christopher,

Paul addresses something similar in Romans 11. Instead of mentioning the sower, he refers to the "grafting in" within the vine of "the people he foreknew" (Romans 11:2): ……………23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, FOR GOD HAS THE POWER TO GRAFT THEM IN AGAIN.

Definitely.

For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Rom. 10:11-13).

Believing Jews will be grafted into the Christ, the only True Vine (John 15), same as believing Gentiles. The wall of partition between Jews and Gentiles had been broken down by Christ (Eph. 2:14-16) and IN Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek. ALL are ONE in Christ Jesus. ALL are sons of God in Christ. And ALL who belong to Christ are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise. (Gal. 3:26-29). And backslidden Gentile believers will also be grafted in again if they do not continue in their unbelief. Our heavenly Father welcomes with great rejoicing every prodigal son who returns to Him (Luke 11:22-24).

Hi Jade,

Thanks for the response -- and very good points. I agree that the prodigal son is a perfect example of this -- a son who left and returned to his father.

Over the last two trips that my wife and I have taken through reading the Bible cover-to-cover, we've decided to read each epistle during each morning. During this most recent read-through of the New Testament, we changed the order by which we read the New Testament. So, we've been reading it in a chronological manner.

Typically, we read the Word of God in the order that the books appear -- beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. We've done this many times and it has been powerfully edifying and refreshing.

However, this last trip, I changed the way we read the New Testament based upon the order it was written. Obviously, there are some debates over the dates by which each book was written. Yet, the Book of Acts provides a very helpful map by which we know where Paul (and even Peter) was between the Lord's ascension in Acts 1 and Paul's confinement in Acts 28.

Using that roadmap, we decided to read the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, John and then Luke -- because Luke wrote Acts as a continuation of the Gospel of Luke). Then, we began Acts until we come to a chapter/place where each epistle was likely written. Although I was already aware of this, this has actually been a very helpful endeavor! It provides some additional context when reading each of these epistles in the timeline in which they were very likely written.

That said: We've been reading each epistle in one sitting. After all, these were letters written by the apostles to the churches. I believe that there is great clarity when reading each epistle in one read-through. This is especially true of Paul's longer epistles -- such I Corinthians, II Corinthians and Romans.

Romans is one of those epistles that is hotly debated and cited by those staking all kinds of doctrinal positions. Yet, when we read Romans 1-16 at one time, it really provides some wonderful perspective and clarity. I think that it is more helpful than just reading a chapter at a time -- which often serves to break the flow of the statements and instructions that are otherwise linked together. In fact, Romans 1-11 seem to be a part of one entire train of thought -- with Romans 12 providing a much-needed "therefore" conjunction.

I suppose that many other believers already study the New Testament like this (either entire epistles at a time and/or in a chronological order). However, it has been very helpful to us in that it provides so much clarity. I cannot count how many times I've read through the epistle to the Romans. Most of the time, I have read 4-6 chapters at a time (and often with my wife during our cover-to-cover readings) or, on my own, going through the book in a more referential manner.

However, reading it aloud to my wife in one morning Bible study has been amazing. The same is true of the other epistles too. It certainly helps when considering various doctrines suggested by various teachers and other believers. This includes contested and often divisive doctrinal debates like Calvinism, OSAS, various ideas regarding "replacement theology," etc.

Nothing is more clarifying than Scripture. If the "spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets" (I Corinthians 14:32), then the doctrines so often attributed to the apostles are also subject to the writings of the apostles. Each time I read God's Word, I approach it willing to reject anything that I adhere to (or follow) that doesn't line up with what is contained within it.

Thanks for sharing some very good points!

Sree,

"What if these warnings are a way for God to bring us back to safety? What if the warnings are how God makes us secure?

My point is we do not see this warning as contradicting our security in Christ. We see warning and security coexisting in scripture. What if security triumphs warnings and warnings are a way to make us secure?

For example we often give some warnings to our children. Those warnings are the way we produce seriousness in them. We definitely do not want those warnings to come true in their lives."
____________________

I am persuaded that what you've written above is the case.

This is a really important thread for today and what is coming. The topic is not left to mystery by God in any way.

By "faith" Noah, after he was warned about what was not yet seen and motivated by godly fear, built an ark to deliver his family... (Hebrews 11:9).

Jeremiah 32:40 - "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts, so that they will not turn away from Me.

I will give you a new heart....I will place my Spirit within you and cause you to follow my statutes and carefully observe my ordinances. (Ezekiel 36: 26 and 27).

Don't be afraid of what you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison to test you, and yo will experience affliction for ten days. Be faithful to the point of death and I will give you the crown of life. (Revelation 2:10)

It is the combination of true simple faith, a godly fear or fear of God ( more than reverence ), a firm hope based in promise, and a new heart and His Spirit that produce a persevering heart and a preservation of the saints resulting in a faithful response to the warnings of God.

Warnings, tender humble heart, godly fear, a passion and love to be with Jesus, a stirring of the Spirit, and a simple salvific faith resulting in faithfulness in severe trial.

I don't think we have to reason this one out at all to arrive at an accurate understanding. Scripture is clear on this topic and question.