Counterfeit Revival by Zac Poonen

Amen. Praise God for this brother. This is what the Lord has been speaking to me for months. Glorious confirmations in this article.

I made a post to my devotional thoughts thread and felt led to post it in this section (Miracle, Deliverance and Those whole Jesus doesn't know) a few days ago that is practically the same article, I praise God for true unity in God's speaking, even spanning the globe.

A glaring question is begged dear brother.

How can you post this as something for the saints of God, and still continue to post and support the very thing this article, and God Himself is opposed to?

I ask you dear brother to see the opposition within your own beliefs, if you in fact believe both this article and those from the movements this article is rebuking.

Emotionalism is the antithesis of spirit brother... it is the exact soulishness that our brother decries in this article, and the Lord has been burdening me with as the primary manifestation of the principalities and powers in this present time, right along side manipulation. Emotionalism will always replace faith as it is at its core satanic manipulation, that is it's very purpose.

The Spirit of truth is the Holy Spirit of God, and He will manifest Himself first and foremost as the Spirit of Truth, because His role is to testify of Jesus, who is in fact truth.

I don't know my dear brother, I am concerned to say the least.

"I see a balance between both areas. The cautions are very valid and important. Emotionalism is not wrong either if it does not "replace" faith and the spirit of truth."

There is counterfeit revival because there is real revival. We need both the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit. We need discernment, but we don’t need to throw out the baby with the bath water, and lump every minister that moves in signs and wonders as being false.

Emotionalism does not make one spiritual, neither does coldness and deadness.
We are commanded by God to love Him with all of our soul, that includes with
our emotions. How would our wives feel if we told them: "Honey, I love you, but
I just don’t have any feelings for you.”

Brother Mike,

I think the term emotionalism refers to the emotions of the flesh and not the emotions of joy, love, etc of the Spirit. 'Soulish emotions" are the issue. The fruits of the Spirit, at least some of them, are emotions/feelings. Thus, a room and hearts filled with the Spirit should be filled with heavenly joy, awe and wonder and love if that is what is happening. I've been in such rooms and felt such emotions and I've seen the soulish emotions or of the flesh and there is an obvious difference. I presume you would agree.

Amen CofG.

The question really is whether the emotions are used as a means to motivate people. If a preacher is stirring up soulish response as means of motivating people to do anything, worst of all serve or worship God, these people will either throw it all away the second the don't have an emotionally charged experience or atmosphere (one preacher in question often here relies almost exclusively on this method of motivation), or just keep flocking back to the place they found the soulish food, which is why you see the ministries and churches of these preachers grow so substantially, only to be abandoned when the next hyped thing emerges and offers a newer and more novel experience, atmosphere, or soulish thing.

AbideInHim,
Please don't think miracles and the like are what is being mentioned as soulish experience. This is not at all what anyone means by this. I would encourage a deep dive into the tripartite nature of man and it's relationship with the triunity of God. In order to find a good over all perspective however you can't read just one teacher on the subject. Watchman Nee has many good things to say, but misses the mark regarding spirit. Norman Grubb is the most solid teacher I have found in this arena, but isn't as theological as some would like, and is generally more anecdotal and "preachy", for lack of better terms. Art Katz was also bold enough to venture into this area in our day, as anyone who rightly divides the word of truth inevitable finds it dividing the spirit, soul and body if obeyed. This will never sit right with those who haven't, and consequently you will either be loved or hated by men. Thankfully we must all stand at the judgment seat of Christ, not soulish or fleshly man.

The goal is spirit, as those who worship God do so in spirit, as Jesus said. Only obedience to Jesus can divide soul from spirit, and it's amazing once it begins to happen, because things that are actually spiritual are always things that soulish religion avoids and says are lacking.

To use interactions with other people, ie. Our wives, as an example is to almost completely miss the point. Our interactions with other people are completely other than our interactions with God. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in Spirit and in truth. Our wives are humans, and as such our interactions and relationship to them is only illustrative of the relationship of Christ and His church, but the even Paul in using this example there said he had to speak in human terms because it was a mystery of God. We must beware of lowering our worship and interaction/relationship to God to human terms and standards, that is the catalyst for these soulish movements in plain terms.

Volumes could be written on this topic, but miracles and deliverance and signs and wonders are not the issue unless these soulish and fleshly religionists use them as a crutch to validate themselves (sadly they usually do, which is why Jesus said that He does not even consider these things as validation).

"I've been in such rooms and felt such emotions and I've seen the soulish emotions or of the flesh and there is an obvious difference. I presume you would agree.”

I believe that a safeguard to being deceived is to always seek Jesus, and not run after emotional experiences. The Spirit of God dwells in the Holy of Holies, our reborn spirit, and His presence is manifested into our souls and sometimes felt in our bodies.

I am not sure how I forgot to mention this, but apart from the Bible, the most important book in print regarding life in the spirit is Oswald Chambers Golden Book (do not get the updated language versions, they are emasculated and robbed of their requiring power). No teacher I have found in my 20 years in the faith is as solid as Chambers regarding the spiritual life, and the Christian life in general.

I don't mean to get slightly off topic, but Chambers prophetic voice is more important now than ever.

AbideInHim,

Seeking and obeying Jesus is the key dear brother, Amen. Nothing is worth anything if it doesn't keep us at the source of everything, even life itself, Jesus.

An abiding principle in my life now is when I find it hard to obey Jesus, believe Him. If I find it hard to believe Jesus, obey Him.

Our lives are hid with Christ in God, and as long as we are conscious every minute that Christ is also living and moving and having His being in us, just as we are in Him, we will walk as He walked and will not fall to deception or apostasy.

EDIT: Also if you missed it, see my edit below. I wanted to talk about your using our relationship to spouses as an example of worshiping God.

So how do we recognize a false move of God according to Jesus.

Mat 24:24

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 7:15

¶"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
"You will know them by their fruits. [fn]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they?

The way for the elect to discern a false move of God is to look at those doing the signs and wonders involved ( if that is what is happening ) is discern the fruit in their lives. One may take "fruit" to mean the harvest from their efforts but I don't think that is what Jesus is talking about at all in the Matthew 7 passage because in the immediately following passage he speaks of "good fruit from a good tree". He's referring to Christ like character and His righteousness.

The signs and wonders performed will be so powerful in this last age that the only way to discern is by the life of the gifted one. This is what Jesus said. I know the response will be look at the broken lives of some prophet or other and yet he was so gifted. I hear you, but I hear Jesus louder.
In days of deception, the opinions, evaluations, assessments and wisdom of men is going to be a dangerous thing to rely on. I prefer the Wisdom of God and will merely use it and not my own reasoning and mental assessment. I know there are a lot of "yeah buts" from many. Testimonies of men are one thing. They often return void.

Amen.

I've never understood converts, healings or deliverances as fruit myself. Nowhere in the new testament is this a teaching. Jesus is saying in the sermon on the mount to compare them to his teaching there, which is unmistakable fruit. It's dangerous to presume we can judge character unless we intimately know the preacher, but not at all presumptive to judge based on what Jesus teaches in the sermon on the mount. Obvious fruit that sadly condemns many public ministries.

Thank you brother Greg for this post.

We have been warned many times throughout the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation regarding false prophets, teachers and antichrists.
Sometimes it is really hard to tell, since they speak smoothly and knows the Bible well but in the end it leads to death.
To avoid false revivals is to know Christ Jesus. He gives us discernment and wisdom to protect us from the Adultress(false prophets) (Proverbs 7)

If they bear fruit that leads to Life is from God and if they bear fruit that leads to death is not from God.

So let us grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior and in His grace.

The problem with deciding who's a false prophet and what might be a false revival is who are we going to listen to will it be John Macarthur or Dr Michael Brown or Zach Poonan or Rick Joyner.

All these men and many others all have a different opinion on the subjects and so we can all pick our favorite chocolate and argue about which chocolate taste the best.

Or we could also go into the New testament and look into early church history and find out exactly what the biblical false prophet or false apostles are and then use that as a template and at least know we are using biblical examples.

In the new testament we see two clear examples of false prophets false apostles they came under two categories number one we see those who are involved as leaders and teachers under the gnostic heresy these were clear biblical false apostles and prophets , we can look at the fruit in the example of the teachings that they taught and know that if we see that today we have a definite example of false teaching and if out pouring of the spirit was taking place then we could say that that is a false revival, having said that we don't see any examples in scripture of outpourings of any spirit or any false spirit that we can compare to the day of Pentecost or the other our pourings that happened in the book of acts, and that is worth remembering.

And then number two we have the other category and that is the Judaizer, who the apostle Paul dealt with and described in the letter to the Galatians and talked about the heresies involved in that movement that was affecting the biblical church.

The main fruits that were exhibited in that heresy on the outwards was hypocrisy and legalism even Peter and Barnabas and the rest of them fell into this heresy according to their apostle Paul though they were not considered false teachers or apostles they were involved with the men that came from James who the apostle Paul described as false brethren who probably had another spirit, as Paul mentioned that when you add the law of Moses to the gospel you have another Jesus another spirit and another gospel this was probably more than likely the same spirit that was operating in the Pharisees and this is a prevalent heresy within the church under two categories Christians who still moved in the gifts of the spirit according to Paul and had one foot in the heresy, and more than likely some mainstream Christians that have a form of godliness but deny the power, do not operate in the filling of the spirit but under the same legalistic principles as did the Pharisees they had a form of godliness but denied the power, and we know Paul said the kingdom of God is not word but power and he demonstrated what power was in his preaching with signs and wonders following the preaching of the gospel. This would be void from the Pharisicial Christians and possibly the judaizers.

Now if we like we can invent more categories but that's exactly what it would be would be our invention.

We see John Macarthur does this according to his own opinions and many others do that as well but if we just keep with the scripture examples this is what we have.

And when it comes to false revivals we really have no scriptural examples of what that looks like except to presume that the gnostics were moving in some powerful revival similar to the New testament church but that may or may not be true. So let's stick with the Bible because we all love to call ourself Bible believing Christians and say everything's got to be based on the word let's stick with that and stop judging what's outside the realm of scriptural examples and then we won't be found to be hypocrites and judges ourselves.

Brother Robert if I could just mention what you said which seems to be a sort of fair plumb bob or measurement when it comes to knowing a prophet by their fruits, we could apply that to Randy Clark who has a extremely clean record when it comes to holy living and devotion and also John Arnott who were the leaders of the Toronto revival so according to that measure then that revival would be okay.

And Kilpatrick and Michael Brown who both have clear records of devotion and holiness which were the leaders of the Brownsville revival.

Some may even argue that their record would be cleaner than Martin Luther himself who would have been classed as possibly a leader of the First revival of The latter rain after the Dark ages .

I know many would would disqualify Martin Luther because of his negative words to towards the Jews as they also disqualified John Calvin for different reasons.

Hi brother Gary,

Let's remember what our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said,

17"Do you not yet realize that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then is eliminated? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a man. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander. 20These are what defile a man, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile him.” Matthew 15:17

The leaders mentioned above may have a clean record but how's their teaching like?
Do they teach people and lead them to life? Or do they teach them disobedience to the Lord Jesus which leads to death?
If they teach obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ, then they are true man of God.

So we must diligently know the Lord Jesus Christ so we don't fall into the teachings of false prophets.
Ask God for wisdom and understanding and He will give you freely.

Hi yulboum. That verse that you just mentioned is Jesus making a point about not committing sin it has nothing to do with false teaching or false doctrine that has not been mentioned ,and what your version of false doctrine is maybe completely different to Dr Michael browns and Macarthur that's beside the point. Jesus didn't mention it in that verse. You will find no teachings where Randy Clark or Dr Michael Brown or Rick joyner teaches disobedience to any of the teachings of Christ. How many hours of those men's sermons have you listened to to make that type of assumption or judgment because I've listened to many hours of those men and have not seen anything like that

Just to let you know brother I cut my teeth on
Paul washer and aw tozer I've listened to hundreds of their sermons and Leonard Raven will be a close third I spent the first 15 years of my Christian walk listening to those men and when I compare them to some of the so-called charismatics that many of the conservatives don't like I don't see any heresy whatsoever in men like Bill Johnson or Rick joyner or Dr Michael Brown or Kilpatrick
.

It seems to me now there is misunderstanding once again regarding the word, fruit.

No one has mentioned correct or incorrect doctrine being fruit. Jesus doesn't point to doctrine or teaching in the sermon on the mount, but rather very obvious things like treasure on earth (million dollar buildings and fundraisers, etc.),

Jesus commands are completely impossible to obey unless He dwells within by the Holy Spirit, which is the whole point. He fulfills them through His people. So with that said, if the ministries and preachers are not adhering to His teachings, not some spiritualized allegorical version, but as Jesus taught them, they are not true, but false. If they are not following them, Jesus does not dwell within them, and if they do not have the Spirit they are none of His, not the purchased possessions of Jesus, and not to be followed, no matter the miracle or doctrine they teach. The division Jesus brought in this matter is so glaringly obvious only babes can see it.

The "I am of Paul" mentality seems to be the next go to distraction from the actual issues after just overlooking glaring discrepancies between these ministries and Jesus clear teaching in the sermon on the mount, and labeling that grace (for some reason grace is still misunderstood as ignoring or overlooking things).

The judgment criteria is the clear teachings of Jesus in the sermon on the mount. Not doctrine, healings, deliverance, miracles, etc.

Do the preachers lives line up with what Jesus teaches? Do their ministries exude a clear following of Jesus in the sermon on the mount, or are there obvious discrepancies?

I think it's so simple that we have a tendency to think it's to simple and consequently try to add things to complicate it, and in so doing lose it all.

The irony is emotionalism can so easily defend itself, and the proof is in this thread. Emotionally defending someone out of a sense of guilt, pity, sympathy, etc., and this all just leads back to self and not Jesus and His clear teachings. This applies to the work as well, are the people hearing showing an outward, hyped up, emotional and soulish zeal for Jesus, or are they being actually born again in the true apostolic sense of that word. Is it born of the spirit, or zeal of the soul. I have seen so many movements fizzle out because they were unable to discern between soul and spirit, and herein lies the deepest deception. It destroys people in the long run, I have personally witnessed it over and over again from Kansas City to Times Square. I was very young in the Lord then however, so I wasn't much use myself, I could just never understand why I could never enter into the hype myself. I now understand there wasn't anything wrong with me, there was something wrong with the movement (they all died out and left trails of destruction in their wakes).