False rapture predictions, Messiah in 2030, and will Christians accept the antichrist rather tChrist

With the recent pre tribulation rapture that are false as the bible predict them

In the past we have had the millerites and Harold camping and johnthan cahns false predictions

Matt 24
23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 "Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

In Matt 24 , jesus says that before he returns many will say he is in the secret chamber or in the desert but believe it not

You could almost say the same about the pre trib rapture as you could liken the secret chamber or the desert

During the first century time period the dead sea Scrolls wrongly predicted jesus first coming

My heart breaks as the damage that is done by these current false predictions, how many people will become atheist because of wrong predictions

During the early 1800s the millerites which wrongly predicted jesus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerism?wprov=sfla1

Out of millerites came the Jehovah's witnesses, seventh day Adventist and mormans and so many other cults

These people who have made false predictions are going to stand before God on judgement day and answer for the false predictions including people like j d farag, Messiah 2030

It breaks my heart as I had to deal with the backlash on the street that Harold camping when they made fun of the gospel in 2011 and I have had to deal with former calvinist it breaks my heart

People should not make predictions likely as they have to stand before God on judgement day

With jesus return , anyone telling you that jesus will return before the antichrist is lying

2 thess 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The bible says that jesus will destroy the antichrist when he return

So when the pre trib say we are expecting Jesus Christ not the antichrist does it mean that they will get the antichrist

As the antichrist is going to be so like Jesus Christ else people will not fall for him
Anyone who says that they are above deception

One of my favourite sermons is the greatest deception is self deception and I can be decided and so can you

Jesus Christ is not going to return until the beast is around
The beast has to have ten kingdoms
Revelation 17:12

12 "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.

Not unless there are ten kings

The bible also states that the temple has to be built

2 thess 2
who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Daniel 9:27
New King James Version
27 Then he shall confirm a [a]covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the [b]desolate.”

If you notice that is not a peace accord it says that sacrifice and oblation shall cease
Which must that the agreement is to do with the building of the third temple

In Jewish thought in Maimonides , the Jewish Messiah must build the third temple

If we follow the lines of the recent thinking that would make Donald trump the antichrist as he initiated the agreement with Saudi Arabia

The bible does not talk about globalism until later in the antichrist reign
In Daniel 11 it details the wars of the antichrist as

Daniel 11
38
But in his place shall he honor the god of forces; and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold and silver, and with precious stones and pleasant things.

A global money system is only in place mid way during his reign

The thing I hate most about bible prophecy channels when they say this is a forerunner of the beast system

Counterfeit money looks alot like real money , I have heard that barcodes and other things have been the mark of the beast system but this verse in context

Rev 13
13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives [f]those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [g]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

In the bible it says the beast will give life to the image of the beast and it will be supernatural not an ai as it says that the beast will do signs and wonders

In the last battle

Tirian had never dreamed that one of the results of an Ape’s setting up a false Aslan would be to stop people from believing in the real one. He had felt quite sure that the Dwarfs would rally to his side the moment he showed them how they had been deceived. And then the next night he would have led them to Stable Hill (the last battle , c s Lewis)

In the story the dwarves don't believe it when the true aslan turns up

This is what makes me so upset when I hear these false predictions about jesus return that when jesus does return

able faces of the Narnians, and saw how they would all believe that Aslan and Tash were one and the same, he could bear it no longer. "Ape,” he cried with a great voice, "you lie. You lie damnably. You lie like a Calormene. You lie like an Ape.”

I would say to this person the same thing you lie like a calormen lile in the last battle
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

It seems like these false predictions never happened but God is keeping a record

Will those expecting Jesus Christ get the antichrist as jesus has got to destroy the antichrist before he comes

Hi Deltadom,
I agree that false predictions do damage regarding anything not just the coming of Christ.I also agree with people who say that most of the crazy preachers believe in the pretrib rapture not the post trib rapture.
It doesnt mean however in anyway that the pre trib rapture is incorrect.
The Great Tribulation is the 2nd 3 1/2 yrs of Daniels prophetic week which means the AntiChrist is around for the first half.

Here is a problem though.
You cant make a theology based on anything but scripture.This means that just because some false preachers or prophets are predicting a rapture in 2030 or whatever time they pick and it doesnt happen that the rapture is wrong,all this means is that they are false prophets.
If you want to contend with the pre trib rapture then it has to be scriptural not experiential.i.e I cant disprove the rapture by the people who are preaching it only by scripture.
urs staff

Hi Dominic,

Thanks for the post.
You are talking about the bottom link right?
https://youtu.be/4AG_nJNcTjM?si=gFpXPYEz2wcTjf1u
And
https://youtu.be/AwsjrcUtNhU?si=P-2Wwi-GdFy1P6Ca

I question the 2030 prediction too but I think the video has some great insights.

Yea that is quite alarming when people are expecting Jesus Christ but get the antichrist instead.

The friend I grew up with was a former converted Jehovah's witness who came to know Jesus at the moment the amount of false predictions for the pre tribulation rapture

The reason I think it is so dangerous as the amount of cult movements and the people who will give up on Christianity because jesus didn't return on rosh Shana

With the pre trib movement I love the people in it and it is getting as crazy as the Jehovah's witnesses as my friend Jim who died along time ago
Whenever the Jehovah's witnesses would come round would list a long list of the false prophecies that supposedly when jesus should have returned under the jws
The Jehovah's witnesses actually built a house for jesus which one of the founders moved into

What is shocking is when I hear is the rapture is on rosh Shana and I have heard it on so many other dates and we are constantly waiting for jesus return and it has been like 20 years on the pre tribulation side
There is a whole host of videos that are on YouTube that have suddenly got deleted saying that jesus will return for his church on rosh Shana this year which is an outright lie and this does so much damage to the Christian faith

It is almost like I could make a long list like my friend Jim white did on when the rapture of the church was supposed to happen on the pre tribulation side

As they say they do not do date setting but that is a complete lie , there are some ministries who do

Most of the pre tribulation advocates are going to be dead soon due to age
It breaks my heart as people are so stubborn

I don't understand why people still believe it if they have been lied to and lied to again over and over again
What breaks my heart is when I listen to so called bible prophecy there is not much of the bible in bible prophecy
It is basically the news regurgitated
I love the bible

Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

Jer 29:9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.

I run a bible study and our church is so small and I so wish that God increased both

This video is like gnosticism 101 as you don't get this from the plain reading of scripture

Hi Deltadom,
Your qoute on the pre trib rapture:

"I don't understand why people still believe it if they have been lied to and lied to again over and over again"

The problem here is you are basing your theology on experience.
ie if people have experienced been lied to over and over why do the believe.

Its like saying "I dont know why people believe in Jesus because of all the lies Christians told over the centuries"
You are basing your arguement on experience not scripture,
urs staff

Lets deal with the verses shall we :)

Matt 24
23 "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 "Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In matt 24 jesus says that when he returns in verse 24 there should be false christ and false prophets before he returns

In verse 26 it talks about look he is in the secret chamber or look he is in the desert
When we are talking about the pre tribulation rapture this is essentially what the pre tribulation rapture says that jesus is secretly coming for his church but 27 says as the lightning comes from the east unto the west so shall the son of man shalll come

This proves that there is no pre trib rapture

Rev 1
7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, [d]the Beginning and the End,” says the [e]Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Vision of the Son of Man

9 I, John, [f]both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, [g]"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches [h]which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

John does not know about the pre tribulation rapture when he writing the book of revelation in patmos

The famous pre trib rapture verses
1 thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The Day of the Lord

5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

What can we determine about timing from this passage, one thing we can determine it is a resserection as in verse 14 it talks about jesus death and resserection in 1 cor 15 where it talks about resserection. the whole passage of 1 corithians 15 talks about the reserection of jesus christ , why shouldnt the last few verses of the chapter

What we can determine from this passage is the reserection happen at the day of the Lord , when is the day of the Lord

Joel 2:30-32
New King James Version

30
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be [a]saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be [b]deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

Matt 24
The Coming of the Son of Man

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So from the passage in Matt 24 and Joel 2 we can determine that the Day of the Lord is after the tribulation and we can determine in 1 thess 4 that the resserection happens after the tribulation

1 Corinthians 15
New King James Version
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you””unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by [a]Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have [b]fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Risen Christ, Our Hope

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up””if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have [c]fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
The Last Enemy Destroyed

20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says "all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Effects of Denying the Resurrection

29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in [e]jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”

33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits.” 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
A Glorious Body

35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain””perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind [f]of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.

40 There are also [g]celestial bodies and [h]terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made[i] of dust; the second Man is [j]the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the [k]man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we[l] shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Our Final Victory

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a [m]mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”” 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55
"O[n] Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

We also have 2 thess 2
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness

in verse 8 we can determine that the antichrist has to be around before jesus returns

1 thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

we can take from this passage that when jesus returns he is not coming for his church more that he is taking vegence on his enemies not coming for his church

where does the word rapture come

this is the latin vulgate of 1 thess 4
deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Jerome, Saint; Challoner, Richard. The Parallel English - Latin Vulgate Bible: With Latin Dictionary References (p. 5878). Amazon.com. Kindle Edition.

notice it does not use the word rapture

rapture (n.)

c. 1600, "act of carrying off" as prey or plunder, from rapt + -ure, or else from French rapture, from Medieval Latin raptura "seizure, rape, kidnapping," from Latin raptus "a carrying off, abduction, snatching away; rape" (see rapt). The earliest attested use in English is with women as objects and in 17c. it sometimes meant rape (v.), which word is a cognate of this one.

The sense of "spiritual ecstasy, state of mental transport or exaltation" is recorded by c. 1600 (raptures). The connecting notion is a sudden or violent taking and carrying away. The meaning "expression of exalted or passionate feeling" in words or music is from 1610s.
also from c. 1600

https://www.etymonline.com/word/rapture

The word rapture has nothing to do with the latin vulgate rapiemur as most people from the pre trib camp say

1594 G. Chapman Σκíα Νυκτóς sig. Aij, It is an exceeding rapture of delight in the deepe search of knowledge”¥that maketh men manfully indure th'extremes incident to that Herculean labour.
1603 M. Drayton Barrons Wars iii. lviii. 67 Those pleasing raptures from her graces rise, Strongly inuading his impressive breast.
1642 Milton Apol. Smectymnuus in Wks. (1851) III. 287 This manӴsees truth as in a rapture, and cleaves to it.
1744 J. Wesley & C. Wesley Coll. Psalms & Hymns (ed. 3) i. 55 If aught can there enhance their Bliss Or raise their Raptures higher.
1762 O. Goldsmith Citizen of World I. 36 He is instantly in raptures at so great an improvement.

Rapture is not a good word

Matt 24 goes directly against the pre tribulation rapture

2 Timothy 2:18
ESV
who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of som

this verse goes directly against the pre trib rapture as in many other passages

None of the early church knew of the pre trib rapture and it is none of the creeds which mention jesus second coming

God seems to have so many different prophetic calanders

I have only touched lightly on the verses from scripture that go directly against the pre trib rapture as there is no clear passage that jesus says he is coming for his church before the tribulation

Hi Deltadom,
Again I have asked over and over again SI post tribulation brothers and sisters the same question without answer only deflection and silly answers like the Great Tribulation isnt that big a deal.
The question is how can these examples given by Jesus be post the Great Tribulation?

Jesus clearly when asked about the end said
It would be like the days of Noah and Lot
They did eat,drink,sow,plant,marry,build etc
Until The Day

Jesus gave two examples to be sure ,to be sure that no one would make a mistake in what he was saying.
The examples show in both cases that Judgement couldnt come til the good guys in Christ are taken out and then came immediate judgement and that everything was normal on the Earth just the day before he came ie we were not after going through the Great Tribulation,
I'd be interested in hearing a straight answer to this,
urs staff

Is this just a deflection

Acts 7:11 N-NFS
GRK: Χαναὰν καὶ θλίψις μεγάλη καὶ
NAS: and great affliction [with it], and our fathers
KJV: and great affliction: and our
INT: Canaan and tribulation great and

Revelation 2:22 N-AFS
GRK: αὐτῆς εἰς θλίψιν μεγάλην ἐὰν
NAS: with her into great tribulation, unless
KJV: great tribulation, except
INT: her into tribulation great if

Revelation 7:14 N-GFS
GRK: ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης
NAS: out of the great tribulation, and they have washed
KJV: great tribulation, and
INT: out of the tribulation great

The term mega thilpses or great tribulation is used

In Matt 13
Passage
Resources
Hebrew/Greek
Your Content
Matthew 13:24-30
New King James Version
The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

With the wheat and tares passage jesus does not come for the church first he goes for the tares and this is alot clearer passage
Not unless you think as a pre tribulation person you think you are a tare

Staff wrote:
//Jesus gave two examples to be sure ,to be sure that no one would make a mistake in what he was saying.
The examples show in both cases that Judgement couldnt come til the good guys in Christ are taken out //

Are you talking about the examples of two men in the field and two women grinding grain?

If so, those taken are not the good guys which is made clear in the parallel passage in Luke 17.

Hi Deltadom,
The answer is yes it is total deflection on what I asked.
100% deflection.

I said that Jesus gave two examples Noah and Lot and you didnt even comment on them.
Jesus outlined the conditions (twice)just before he comes
1 eating drinking planting marrying etc(normal life)
2 Until the day Noah and Lot are taken out then immediate Judgement
3 The Non Believers are not expecting Judgement

None of these thing can be true in the Great Tribulation or just after the Great Tribulation.

At this stage the post trib believers usually opt out rather than answer with excuses ,im busy ,i cant talk to you ,the tv is broke whatever........
urs staff

Hi TMK,
We both know you are not a pre or post believer and "what about" is not an answer on what I asked?
Jesus said when asked
Noah Lot
Good Guys gone before Judgement
Two examples so that we can all be sure what he is saying
Normal behaviour going on
People's attitude is one of same old same old not worried about God at all
What about Noah and Lot examples?
urs staff

Gen 19

Sodom’s Depravity
19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, "Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”

And they said, "No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”

3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him, 7 and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly! 8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.”

9 And they said, "Stand back!” Then they said, "This one came in to [a]stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.” So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door. 10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
12 Then the men said to Lot, "Have you anyone else here? Son-in-law, your sons, your daughters, and whomever you have in the city””take them out of this place! 13 For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the Lord, and the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”

14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who had married his daughters, and said, "Get up, get out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city!” But to his sons-in-law he seemed to be joking.

15 When the morning dawned, the angels urged Lot to hurry, saying, "Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city.” 16 And while he lingered, the men took hold of his hand, his wife’s hand, and the hands of his two daughters, the Lord being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside the city. 17 So it came to pass, when they had brought them outside, that [b]he said, "Escape for your life! Do not look behind you nor stay anywhere in the plain. Escape to the mountains, lest you be [c]destroyed.”

Lot is not an example of the pre tribulation rapture as lot does not escape 7 years before sodom and gommorah is destroyed
Lot flees the city the day that it is destroyed

Luke 17:29
but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

αρπαζω occurs 30 times in the OT. ge.37.33 ; le.6.4 ; le.19.13 ; de.28.31 ; 2sa.23.21 ; job.20.19 ; job.24.2 ; job.24.9 ; job.24.19 ; ps.7.2 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.10.9 ; ps.22.13 ; ps.50.22 ; ps.104.21 ; is.10.2 ; eze.18.7 ; eze.18.12 ; eze.18.16 ; eze.18.18 ; eze.19.3 ; eze.19.6 ; eze.22.25 ; eze.22.27 ; ho.5.14 ; am.1.11 ; am.3.4 ; mic.3.2 ; mic.5.8 ; na.2.12

These are all the references to harpizo in the septigient
Noah and lot are not raptured or harpizod in the tanach

Let's look at Noah

Genesis 7
New King James Version
The Great Flood
7 Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. 2 You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; 3 also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep [a]the species alive on the face of all the earth. 4 For after seven more days I will cause it to rain on the earth forty days and forty nights, and I will [b]destroy from the face of the earth all living things that I have made.” 5 And Noah did according to all that the Lord commanded him. 6 Noah was six hundred years old when the floodwaters were on the earth.

7 So Noah, with his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives, went into the ark because of the waters of the flood. 8 Of clean animals, of animals that are unclean, of birds, and of everything that creeps on the earth, 9 two by two they went into the ark to Noah, male and female, as God had commanded Noah. 10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth. 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

13 On the very same day Noah and Noah’s sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them, entered the ark”” 14 they and every beast after its kind, all cattle after their kind, every creeping thing that creeps on the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort. 15 And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life. 16 So those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him; and the Lord shut him in.

17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. 18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered. 20 The waters prevailed fifteen cubits upward, and the mountains were covered. 21 And all flesh died that moved on [c]the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man. 22 All in whose nostrils was the breath [d]of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. 23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. 24 And the waters prevailed on the earth one hundred and fifty days.

There is no parellels between the rapture and Noah , as soon as God closes the door , God send the rain
Noah doesn't escape before the flood

Noah doesn't escape 7 years before the flood just because they were living normal lives before the flood

What we have determined is the word harpizo in the Greek septigient is not used in either the history regarding lot or Noah
To make parellels is crazy as Noah and lot , the city and the world is destroyed straight after when they have left

I do not see this as a plausible case for the pre tribulation rapture

Staff when I answered the first question which you said I did not have verses to prove my point and said previously my experience was purely emotional
I provided verses that go against the pre tribulation rapture, one of many in scripture

Then rather than deal with the actual material you decide to ask about question
That would be called question bombing
So as soon as I ask one question you deflect without dealing with the previous question

Hi Deltadom,
So Jesus said this

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

but you are saying that his examples of the end arent correct because you think the Great Tribulation lasts 7 yrs when it is clearly only the last 3 and half years of Daniels 70th week.
So you are saying in effect that the Judgement is not immediate and thats the reason these examples cant be before the Great Tribulation.
We see clearly from scripture that immediately after the first half of the 7 yrs are over Judgement comes.

Your qoute -Lot is not an example of the pre tribulation rapture as lot does not escape 7 years before sodom and gommorah is destroyed

In effect you are saying that Jesus mentioned what the times were like for no reason,for no reason at all.
And by accident he gave two examples of the Just being taken out before immediate Judgement .
You are also saying that we will be able to eat drink,marry build and everything will be normal(including mans depravity) during the time where the bible describes as the worst time in history and when the mark of the beast is in operation.Note Jesus didnt mention they were marrying in Sodom example.
You are saying that Jesus didnt know at the time when he said these things what Noah and Lots generation were like ,of course he knew that Noah and Lots generation were perverse but he still said that they were eating,drinking and building etc in those perverse generations.They couldnt do all those activities after Judgement came and thats why this cant be during the last half of the 7 yrs .
You are saying that because Jesus didnt elaborate more and mention 7 yrs or that they will be raptured then it cant be correct.Both Noahs and Lots rescue were totally different and totally miraculous.
Jesus was showing the order of things
everyone is carrying on as normal including in depravity
and judgement comes upon them immediately when the good guys are taken out.
Thats why Jesus said "until the day "twice

The reason I put this question their is because Post Tribulation believers treat Pre Tribulation believers badly and cant look at this scripture simply and honestly.
We have to put up with nonsense like Zac Poonen,
ie
It only began 150 yrs ago
Look at all the false predictions
The founding fathers didnt believe it
We are going to lose our salvation if we are not ready
Make sure you live simply
Persecuted believers dont believe in pre trib
Corrie Ten Boon didnt believe it

The post tribulation teaching is a horrible ,non graceful teaching that seeks to keep Christians in bondage,
urs staff

The problem is the examples you give are not clear texts
When you have the parable of the wheat and the tares
Where jesus says he is coming for the unrighteousness first

You forgot to mention that when looking back at the passage that harpizo is not used as I detail the passage of when harpizo is mentioned in the septigient and the passages of lot and Noah are not mentioned not even Enoch does it use the word harpizo in the septigient

The thing is that jesus did elaborate more about his second coming in the passage in Matt 24 he details the fact that as the lightning comes from the east and so unto the west so shall the signs of the son of man shall be
He details the fact that anyone who says he comes in a secret coming such as in the desert or in a secret chamber like the pre tribulation rapture it must be a false prophet or false Christ but you didn't bother to read the verses which you asked for when you said you wanted verses that backed up my position or even interact with them

What I find hard is , when trying to put the anology of lot and Noah onto pre tribulation rapture theology is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole when you do detailed analysis of the story it just doesn't fit

When you have clear passages in 2 thess 2:8 where it talks about jesus destroying the antichrist in a clear passage

2 thess 8
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

As there is no clear passages regarding the pre tribulation rapture position as 1 thess 4 and 1 cor 15 are passages about the resserection which is clearly mentioned as the first resserection

Rev 20
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no clear passage that jesus says I am coming back seven or three and half years for my church before the great tribulation as I listed in my previous post all the references to mega thilpses or the great tribulation and none of the them mention that

The problem also which I don't detail is the fact of the only references to the marriage supper of the lamb in revelation as it mentions that it is down here on earth according to the bible not in heaven which is a problem.as this is the only.reference in scripture.to the marriage supper of the lamb and it is at his second coming z it is not at the rapture of the church

Revelation 19
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The actual biblical evidence is what matters

Truth should matter as the devil is the father of lies

The millerites in the early 1800s they predicted jesus return time and time again and we have so many cults that have come out of that movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerism?wprov=sfla1

In the future how many Christians who have left there faith due to failed predictions or the fact of a theology which is basically a lie

The simple fact is that the early church even the Thessalonians went through tribulation if you read 1 thess 3 as most pre tribulation rapture poeple don't bother to read the whole books of 1 Thessalonians and the books of 2 Thessalons

There are other Greek words for tribulation and persecution.

The reason the early church and Paul didn't know about the rapture
If something is a mystery or hidden knowledge that is gnosticism or the occult as a Christian I want to stay as far away from that

The pre tribulation rapture is gnosticism as the word rapture is not mentioned in scripture

What I don't understand is people are looking for the hidden things not the obvious and things that are in plain sight

How much damage will this doctrine do as this doctrine of the pre tribulation rapture has done damage it has split churches, I left personally a church because I was called levan in a church because I didn't believe in this doctrine
I have been called all types of names just simply because I don't believe in a western doctrine as in North Korea or China or Pakistan they don't believe this rubbish as they are being persecuted

The early church went through persecution and this doctrine would be foreign to him as he was ship wrecked twice beaten by rods and other things for his faith

The passages that are presented for evidence for the rapture when read in the context of the book such as 1 thess 4 and 1 cor 15 do not provide evidence of they are understood in context

Is like 2 thess 1
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, note

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: note

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power

Is that a clear passage

2 thess 2
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Rev 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 19.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone

Why do we need to concatenate verses using conjecture when we have clear passages that talk about Jesus return

And how many people are going to tune to atheism or paganism due to fact of the pre tribulation doctrine

There is only one father of lies and he is the devil

The pre tribulation rapture is supposed to have no signs but somehow it is on rosh Shana and Israel has to be in the land and it has to be before the signing of the covenant

I grew up with this doctrine and when I thought about it and read my bible is seems insane and a lie

Hi Deltadom
Now questioning the clear examples Jesus gave.
Not Paul not Peter but Jesus.

Jesus knew at the time of his speaking that Noah's Generation and Lot's generation were evil yet he said of them that they were eating,drinking,planting,sowing,building etc and they were not believeing any judgement was coming.

Jesus gave these two examples to show that Judgement came immediate after the good guys were taken out.

Jesus gave these two examples to show the order of things at his coming
Your qoute
What I find hard is , when trying to put the anology of lot and Noah onto pre tribulation rapture theology is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole when you do detailed analysis of the story it just doesn't fit

What you really find hard is that Jesus said theese things regarding his coming and you are denying they have any importance.

Jesus said all things will be well before his coming but you say no we will have just gone through the tribulation.
Jesus said no Judgement until the good guys are taken out but you say no "until the day" doesnt mean that.
You know quite well that Jesus was talking about the end and it isnt a "story" its what Jesus said was practically going to happen,
urs staff
ie the consequences of the doctrine of the Post Trib are as dangerous if wrong as the doctrine of Pretrib was wrong.

Matt 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

In the Verse 39 it says the flood took them away , it does not say they were raptured , when in verse 41 it uses the word taken to be a bad thing rather than a good thing