Francis Chan explains how he became a Bill Johnson loving charismatic ..... An interesting article that mentions quotes from Francis and how and why he changed his views
https://pulpitandpen.org/2020/05/19/francis-chan-explains-how-he-became-a-bill-johnson-loving-charismatic/.
In another video Francis Chan mentions that while he was on the phone to Sam Storms he began to speak in tongues.
Gary,
You said in another thread,
"I don't like to get involved in that type of conversation because every camp or denomination accuses one another of being the false prophet or the false teacher or having false doctrine and we can spend the rest of our lives telling each other whose false and who's not, the fundamentalist Baptist will say unless you're a fundamentalist Baptist you're a liberal , holiness Pentecostals will say unless you are part of our oneness denomination you're a liberal, charismatics will say if you're a hyper charismatic you're a liberal,it just keeps going on, many calvinists will say unless you're a 5-point calvinist you're a Pelagian."
So, are you wanting that type of conversation? Maybe I'm just reading into things and there is suddenly a resurgence of interest in Francis Chan (if so, praise God), or you posted this as a way to try to once again justify hyper charismatica by saying even Chan is one... Which isn't true, as a response to the post I made the other day with a couple of Chans sermons.
Just confused by the irony.
I won't say any more than that right now, because I would love a conversation about these things, as long as we can focus on Jesus and not emotion.
Yeah you're reading into it way too much.
I just posted it for encouragement. That shows our brother Chan has repented from judging and condemning his other brothers in Christ who come from a different stream.
Brother the conversations that I don't like getting into are ones where people start to slander and gossip about brothers in Christ.
I believe they just turn out to be fruitless conversations and gossip sessions where everyone just falls into sin I spent years doing that on sermon index and other places.
I didn't see any fruit and I still don't see fruit coming from that, people can still have a discussion on a subject without going to that level.
Clearly the thrust of Francis Chan's messages and behaviour when it comes to this is that he may disagree with Bill Johnson and Mike bickel and others on some doctrine but he's still loves them and appreciates their ministry for what they bring to the body of Christ and if we all took that position we would have no arguments but fruitful discussion.
Its an encouragement for us to love one another as brothers in Christ.☺ï¸ðŸ™ðŸ•Ž
May God deliver us from a critical fault finding spirit, and may we build up the Church instead of always tearing it down.
Are You Destroying the Church?
By Francis Chan
We must be careful that we don't create within our own minds a false dichotomy, and that we don't equivocate the meanings of words. We say that anything critical is not loving and that anything loving is not critical. A false dichotomy and in many minds an equivocation of terms. To criticize means to look critically at a doctrine or a teaching, in this case, and carefully compare it to scripture to judge its veracity. We equivocate when we change the meaning to be mean spirited and unloving. The word criticism does not mean that. The word critical can have that meaning in some specific cases. So we have to be careful with our language.
But we are actually COMMANDED by scripture to be critical. Brothers, do not believe every spirit but test the spirits. This is criticism. Mark those that teach another doctrine and avoid them. This is criticism. The Berean were more noble than most and carefully compared what Paul said with the Old Testament scriptures to see if He was legitimate. This is criticism.
Its not that we are unloving. We should love even the vilest of sinners and the most heretical of false teachers. But that does not mean that we do not criticize them. We are commanded to do this, and to publicly call them out.
This used to happen on a local level. A small church would begin to be influenced by a book, a magazine article, or a travelling preacher. The pastor would identify these teachings as being damaging to the body. He would call them out publicly to his congregation and warn them.
With the inception of television and now the internet, these false teachers don't preach on one place geographically. They preach online. So, instead of being called out in one place geographically, they must be called out in the forum of the internet.
This does not mean we do not love them. It means we love the body of Christ for whom Christ died enough to warn them of false teachers.
Travis
"With the inception of television and now the internet, these false teachers don't preach on one place geographically. They preach online. So, instead of being called out in one place geographically, they must be called out in the forum of the internet.
This does not mean we do not love them. It means we love the body of Christ for whom Christ died enough to warn them of false teachers."
Brother,
I agree with you that we are to judge and call out false prophets, teachers, and speak the truth, and I could name you pastors that have mega churches that are not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ. They are not preaching repentance, and should be called out.
There are false accusations made very often on these forums concerning true brothers, movements of God, that are harmful to the Body of Christ, that is not true discernment at all, but is based on suspicion, opinions, and even reading articles from heresy hunter websites. It is sad when a brother in the Lord falls, and then critics are happy about it because they called him a false teacher or prophet, and now they can say, "I told you so." The bible has very clear instructions on restoring a brother that has fallen.
There were many heresy hunters, some on these forums that said that the Brownsville Revival was false because of the manifestations that were taking place. But those that were the accusers of strange fire failed to mention that the gospel was being preached under a strong anointing of the Holy Spirit, many were being saved, many back sliders were returning to the Lord, and the saints were being refreshed by the presence of God. Things really have not changed because you can go back to the first great awakening and the same things were happening then. There were many men of God that were greatly used of God at one time that got off in some error. So the right postion to take is to judge how God was moving through their ministry, and also judge the error so it can be used as a warning to prevent it from happening again.
There is much false accusation that comes because of jealousy, selfish ambition, and not rightly dividing the spirit and the soul, not recognizing that in any revival there can be a mixture. Young people need to be discipled, but there are many well meaning saints that quench the Spirit, because any emotional excitement that they see is strange fire to them.
Let us "prove all things and hold fast to that which is good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21).
Amen Travis.
Jeremiah 5:31
The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?
Matthew 24:24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
It is ironic as when I was working at the Christian bookshop I was looking for good Christian literature to give to my friends and books to recommend and my bar was set at walter Martin's kingdoms of the cults standard basically they believed in things like the trinity and the deity of jesus and other things that were not cult like
I found it very hard with the bar set very low
My heart breaks as all i would like is an in personal bible study but it is so hard as when you have read commentaries for fun as I so want the holy spirit and feel like the worst sinner
I.would love more in person bible studies
I have read Francis Chan books and can give you a synopsis with some of his quotes and his book crazy love he tries to give you the wrong cure for the problem
What amazes me it was people listen to and you see how many views false teachers get and it is not that hard to simply go through the bible verse by verse and actually learn something through the scriptures
I am terrible at greek and Hebrew my language side of learning a language is turned of and would take a miracle
I have wondered whether we are in the great apostasy but In the scriptures that the apostasy reveals the antichrist and then remembering the time of Martin Luther when the Catholic church was ruling
I have always wondered how the great apostasy reveals the antichrist
There were many heresy hunters, some on these forums that said that the Brownsville Revival was false because of the manifestations that were taking place. But those that were the accusers of strange fire failed to mention that the gospel was being preached under a strong anointing of the Holy Spirit, many were being saved, many back sliders were returning to the Lord, and the saints were being refreshed by the presence of God. Things really have not changed because you can go back to the first great awakening and the same things were happening then. There were many men of God that were greatly used of God at one time that got off in some error. So the right postion to take is to judge how God was moving through their ministry, and also judge the error so it can be used as a warning to prevent it from happening again.
The Bible tells us that the plumbline is not the appearance of how God is moving through a ministry. The plumbline is how what they are teaching compares to the Word of God. Many men have had very effective ministries with crowds following them and even "signs and wonders", but what they taught was blatant heresy. There are men today who have what appears to be great and successful ministries. For example, Jesse Duplantis. He has hundreds of thousands of followers. He ministers all over the world. Yet his teaching is Biblically heretical. He has denied original sin, replacing it with original goodness and very publicly proclaimed that the reason Jesus' return is delayed is because the body of Christ is not giving enough money. He claims to regularly visit heaven and have direct revelation from Jesus Christ. He is far, far removed from any form of Biblical Christianity, yet, he has a very "effective" and "successful" ministry. We must carefully compare teachings to the written word of God. Remember, in the last days we are told that there will be false teachers who perform many lying signs and wonders. There will be a strong delusion and deception that will deceive even the very elect if it were possible. So we must know the Word and we must compare carefully what we are hearing to that word.
Francis Chan - "God Might Kill You If You Criticize Church Leaders”
I heard that all the time from the abusive controlling pastor.
"The Bible tells us that the plumbline is not the appearance of how God is moving through a ministry. The plumbline is how what they are teaching compares to the Word of God. "
I certainly cannot debate with you on that point. The true Word of God being preached with God confirming His Word by the signs that followed.
How can we ever come into the unity of the Spirit with all the various denominations that are not teaching all of the Word of God?
I never have been impressed with Jesse’s ministry. He is from Louisiana, and there is nothing wrong with having a sense of humor, but he kind of went a little over board on that, and also on the false prosperity message.
By the way, there is a true prosperity message and a false one also.
How do we know something is truly is the holy spirit by the word of God
John 14:17
the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you
John 15:26
The Coming Rejection
"But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
Galations 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
The holy spirit is part of the trinity
Acts 5
New King James Version
Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
He is God, The bible talks about that the holy spirit testifies of Jesus, The holy spirit does not glorify himself
John 14:15-17
King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
The Bible talks about the holy spirit that if you love me keep my commandments, then I will send the holy spirit to be with you
You cannot have the holy spirit without knowing the word, you can as the holy spirit does whatever it likes
But the bible commands us to test all the spirits
1 John 4:1
Love for God and One Another
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Also Jesus is not going to contradict his word, why would Jesus contradict his previous word as deity
Who is Jesses ministry
If we have some denomations that are going directly against the word of God as there are churches that god takes away there lampstand
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place””unless you repent.
A church without a gospel is a social club and we have many social club denominations
I think Denny Kensington when he quoted the greatest deception is self deception and the lord deliver me from this
Quote: The Bible tells us that the plumbline is not the appearance of how God is moving through a ministry. The plumbline is how what they are teaching compares to the Word of God.
I can remember when I was a young Christian being told you can't just preach a message you must be the message incarnate.
Incarnate meaning: to give bodily form and substance.
In a nut shell you must be the message: it's not enough to preach a message, you must live that message.
Jesus incarnated the Gospel - scripture says that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. For thousands of years the heart of God was communicated through the Law of Moses and through prophets.
When Christ appeared and dwelt among us a new level of clarity of the nature and character of God was displayed.
Like wise we are to be a letter from Christ, with a message written on our hearts.
And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 2 Cor 3:3.
Amen Colin!
Colin: I agree insomuch as what you are saying is that the Holy Spirit living in us produces in us the fruit of righteousness. As believers, we don't simply ascribe to a written set of laws or rules, but we have had a rebirth by the Spirit of God. In that respect, we are a living testimony to the world of the power and grace of God to forgive and to transform. And I believe that is what you are saying.
There is a problem though, especially in the modern American church, of making statements similar to what you made, but with a totally different meaning. Those who hold that we absolutely must have sound Biblical interpretation and that we must learn to study the word are viewed as "religious" or "legalistic". It is said that they lack the power of the Holy Spirit. These same people often twist scripture, calling it "new revelation" from the Holy Spirit.
The problem is that 2 Cor. 3:3 is contrasting the approach to God under the law of Moses where man tried in his flesh to be holy, and the transforming power of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant. But I have heard this verse used so many times to contrast those who are diligent in the written word and those who are "led of the Spirit". I am NOT saying this is what you meant. I think I know better. But what you brought up highlights the false equivocation that happens so often in the American church anyway.
Mike: Unity must be around something. There is no such thing as unity for the sake of unity, despite what we teach and believe. True unity, as described by Paul in 1 Cor. 1-3, is a unity of the same mind and same judgement. This same mind must come through the word of God. We have become so loose in our interpretations, often taking scriptures far from their actual meaning to support our own ideas. This is the origin of so many denominations. Understandably we will never agree on everything. We all get things wrong. If I cannot admit I have some things wrong, I am very proud indeed. But those things will be of no consequence if we are properly interpreting scripture. The things dividing the church now are HUGE in their import and not able to be overcome by unity movements. We must get back to the word of God and study it diligently.
Travis,
This is the unity that God is looking for:
As you mentioned, It is unity based on the Word of God.
It is the unity of the Spirit.
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6).
It is the unity that Jesus prayed for in John 17:
"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. (John 17:20,21)
True unity is unity in the faith:
"until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
(Ephesians 4:13)
I would add:
1 Cor. 1:10: Now I beseech you brethren by the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgement.
This discussion is locked.
