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Latest Developments in the Middle East Crisis

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ESchaible Nov 15, 2023

This article is not current, I am unsure of the date of its original writing. But it is significant nonetheless. Much of the things needed have since been fulfilled in regards to a "final war", and the rest is quickly approaching fulfillment, but we see through a glass darkly. May we see things as God sees them.


Latest Developments in the Middle East Crisis
By Reggie Kelly

The situation in Lebanon is surely another installment along the long road of tragedy in the region. It is part of an insoluble impasse that has existed since the quarrel that began in the tents of Abraham. Ezekiel called it the "perpetual hatred” (Ezek 35:5). It is the historical culmination of a dilemma that is divinely intended to defy any human solution. "Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which He hath made crooked?” (Ecc 7:13). "I will overturn, overturn, overturn, until he come whose right it is …” (Ezek 21:27)

Given what Israel represents to the eschatological vision of fundamentalist Islam, it is clear that nothing short of the complete annihilation of the Jewish state, if not the elimination of every Jew, could ever assuage this deeply religious form of hatred. The apocalyptic world-vision of Islamic fundamentalism views the very existence of Israel as an insult to Allah.

Since my earliest study of prophecy, I’ve been convinced that the scriptures make plain that the "ten nations” that the Antichrist will lead against Israel is not a so-called "revived Roman Empire” of the Western European common-market countries, but rather the modern equivalents of Israel’s ancient enemies described in Ps 83; Ezek 38 et al. These original descendants of Ishmael and Esau currently constitute the modern lands of the Arabic and Islamic world.

It behooves us to declare from the roof tops all that God has spoken by the mouth of His ancient prophets concerning these very days, and the impossible dilemma the will crowd the nations into the final crucible over Jerusalem. It is the final face-off between God and the demonic powers, the culmination of Satan’s age-long war against the covenant. It is destined to evoke all the great questions of God and history, discovering to the core the disposition of every heart towards the claims of God’s sovereign right and rule, His election and covenant.

The issue of the Jew and the Land is divinely calculated to reveal our deepest heart towards the nature of grace and the gospel. It is remarkable how profoundly the question of Jerusalem ("the controversy of Zion;” Isa 34:8; Jer 25:31) is bound up with ones understanding of God, the wisdom of His choice, and the glory of His purpose in history. Regardless of modernity’s distance and indifference to this ancient divine claim (the everlasting covenant), the nations are no less accountable, and will be held liable for their presumptuous defiance of it (Ezek 38:18; Joel 3:2 et al). Hence, the nations are ultimately tested by that age-old question: "Has God really said?” This is what is always at stake; and if you think about it, it is the essence of every test.

Regardless of which side your sympathies are with in any relative sense, to know the situation ‘after the flesh’ is death. In the natural, the issues are so multiplex that to mention any part of the equation in isolation from the bigger picture is to evoke righteous indignation from either side, and this is understandable, because no one part of this insoluble conundrum can do full justice to this subject. Its very design is to test us to the quick, and to eventually draw out every aspect of divine contention that has existed since the beginning. With Israel, it is "the quarrel of my covenant” (Lev 26:25; Micah 6:2) With the nations, it is "the controversy of Zion.” With the church, it is the issue of how one understands the nature of grace, as shown by the church’s historical tendency to "boast against the branches,” in costly ignorance of "this mystery.” Since the controversy of Zion will test all nations, what of the church? What of Peter’s warning that "judgment must begin at the house of God?” This will also sift the church.

Where this most current and particular resurgence of the "everlasting hatred” will lead in the immediate future, I do not know. But this much I can say: There is much still that must transpire before Jacob’s trouble can take place. The prophecy of Daniel provides the important details (let him that reads understand). There it is seen that certain preliminary conditions must be in place before Jacob’s trouble can begin. A careful comparison of the literal details and depictions of Daniel’s prophecy implies a dramatic contrast with the present political situation. Hence, a radical shift must come. But how? There are many formidable obstacles. What will it take to accomplish such enormous change?

It is difficult to conceive that anything less than a regional war of a serious magnitude, perhaps even threatening the near loss of the modern state, would be sufficient to bring about the kind of political changes necessary to provide for the conditions that precede and signal the beginning of Jacob’s trouble, particularly if these are to receive, as I expect, a very soon fulfillment. Therefore, I suggest that we will likely see a radical reconfiguration of the political landscape, and such change will most likely come as the result of war that Israel will survive (momentarily) in contrast to the final desolations of Jacob’s trouble. I’ve written briefly concerning this preliminary order of events in an email that Simon posted on our website under the title "Avoiding the False Alarms of Prophetic Speculation.”

If we are not to ignore certain clear scriptures that describe a definite set of events that mark the approach and signal the beginning of Jacob’s trouble, then we may well expect a regional war on a potentially tremendous scale, sufficient to affect the kind of radical changes implicit in a literal reading of prophecy. If so, then Jacob’s trouble is not an imminent event; other things must happen first. Jacob’s trouble (the ‘great tribulation’) awaits a political situation whereby the religious orthodox will have a controlling jurisdiction over Jerusalem. A league (Dan 11:23) or covenant with Antichrist (Daniel’s ‘little horn’ which I believe will be a regional neighbor) must be publicly ‘confirmed’ (sanctioned, ratified, approved, not created). Sometime shortly after the peace agreement with the Antichrist, the orthodox will begin restoration of the institutions of the ‘holy covenant,’ i.e., temple, sacrifice, etc.

This is not always a welcome interpretation because it seems to postpone the end, but it is the only interpretation that shows itself consistent and harmonious with the larger context of Daniel, particularly in chapter eleven where a number of events are detailed, intrigues, and regional conflicts, all depicted as preceding Jerusalem’s final desolations. Therefore, we can be certain that Israel will survive whatever comes until that time.

Unhappily, any momentary triumph over the Arab and Islamic threat will only contribute to an even greater presumption, as Israel enters into its ill-fated "covenant with death and hell.” This peace lie brings a momentary euphoria of false hope ("When they shall say ‘peace and safety’ ….”). It is the ultimate delusion that signals the imminent fall of Jerusalem to the ten nation confederacy of Antichrist (Dan 11:45; Rev 17:16).

According to prophecy, after 3 ½ years the momentary euphoria of presumed peace and security ends ‘suddenly’ in a flood of invading forces from many countries that make up the modern Islamic block of nations (Ezek 38). This will mean the unleashing of the full fury of the Islamic world on an unsuspecting Israel (Isa 28:15, 18; Ezek 38:8, 11, 14; 39:26; Dan 8:25; 9:27; 11:23-24 ASV; 1Thess 5:3). I personally believe we could begin to move rapidly into this last formation of events at almost anytime. However, as things stand now, it will require a considerable reconfiguration of the political and regional situation in order for the stage to be fully set for Jacob’s trouble, also called the ‘day’/ ‘time’ of Israel’s "calamity” (Deut 32:35; Ezek 35:5; Obadiah 13).

As for the current situation in Lebanon, I can only speculate. I do not know what Hezbollah hoped to gain by this (but it is certain that such a calculated provocation had much more in mind than the exchange of prisoners). I do not know where this stage of the conflict is headed. I only know that the prophetic scripture makes clear that there will be a false peace before the final war. But knowing you have close friends and loved ones in Lebanon, I will tell you what I count most important: That is the urgency by which we must guard our hearts in the days ahead. Jesus warned that "because iniquity shall abound the love of many shall wax cold.” Truly, there is nothing that more excites anger and hatred than ‘an outraged sense of justice.’ Therefore, if we permit the appalling scenes of injustice to prevail against our love, then regardless of the accuracy of our theology or political sympathies and ethical assessments, all is lost. The test will only get more impossible as time goes on, but that’s precisely where grace will be magnified the more ("Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound”). The whole situation and all the issues that it evokes are divinely intended to test the ground of our standing, whether our trust is in nature or grace (Hag 2:6-7; Heb 12:26-29).

As for what’s been said around here about this latest outbreak, really nothing very definite, but a sober sense that we are at another critical juncture and transition point (Art compared it to how he felt at the beginning of the intifada), as we see in all these things the inexorable approach of Jacob’s trouble. We simply pray; mostly with groans hard to articulate. In view of what must come first before the kingdom, the prayer for the "peace of Jerusalem,” like the prayer "Thy kingdom come …,” becomes a very costly prayer indeed (Acts 14:22).


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deltadom Nov 29, 2023

Why can't people stand for Israel

When talking about theology , theology simply means knowledge of God
It is whether our knowledge of God fits what it says in the bible

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savannah Nov 29, 2023


deltadom writes,

Why can't people stand for Israel

When talking about theology , theology simply means knowledge of God
It is whether our knowledge of God fits what it says in the bible

___________________

Some people (christians) can't stand for Israel because their knowledge of God fits what it says in the Bible.


2 John 7
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Yeshua The Messiah has come in the flesh; such a person is a deceiver and antichrist...
So then, if some come to you who do not bring this teaching, do not welcome them in your homes; do not even say, "Peace be with you."


2 Cor. 6:14-18
Do not become allied with those who do not believe, for what partnership is there between righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What agreement has The Messiah with Satan? What lot has a believer with an unbeliever? And what mutual agreement does the temple of God have with idols? For we are the temple of the living God, just as God said, "I will live in them and will walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” Therefore "come out from their midst, and be separate,” says the Lord, "and touch no unclean thing, and I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters,” says the Lord Almighty.

1 Corinthians 16:22-24
Whoever does not love our Lord Yeshua The Messiah, let him be accursed, our Lord has come. The grace of our Lord Yeshua The Messiah be with you, And my love is with all of you in The Messiah Yeshua.

Matthew 12:30
He who is not with me is against me; and he who does not gather with me, shall be dispersed. Jesus

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36

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ESchaible Nov 30, 2023

Savannah,

"Christians" who do not stand for the Jewish people are not Christians. I am not sure what you intended to convey in your post, but antisemitism is the antithesis of Christianity, and Jesus. If you do not stand for the Jew first, and then the gentile, you do not know God as He has revealed Himself. The gospel itself is for the Jew first and then the gentile. Jesus came for the Jew first, and only after they rejected Him were the gentiles even offered salvation. Gentiles were given the crumbs from the table, and thank God for His mercy in this.


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savannah Nov 30, 2023

ESchaible writes,
"I am not sure what you intended to convey in your post, but antisemitism is the antithesis of Christianity, and Jesus."

_____________________________

Why are you not sure what I intended to convey? My post contains what God has said. Your question ought to be, "What does God intend to convey in His Word you read in my post?"

You also said,

"Christians" who do not stand for the Jewish people are not Christians." Your words, not God's Word!

Because one doesn't hold to your view of the jewish people does not = antisemitism. I have been involved in the evangelization of both jew and gentile for nearly 40 years.

God says,

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."

"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. And since we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ"

Christian or non-christian is only to be answered by God's Word. The marks of each are clearly delineated & defined by Him in His Word, as He knows those who are His and those who are not.

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ESchaible Nov 30, 2023

Savannah,

I don't understand... as is common in threads that dare to mention the Jews.

I really don't see a point at all, in anything you posted so far. At least not a point that has any relevance to the topic.

I guess I'll just ask this question: what is your opinion of the Jew?

EDIT: Something about your changing of those scripture verses in your original post makes my spirit recoil, almost like it is completely for show and to try and sound "hebraic", when in fact it is no more hebraic to change Greek to Hebrew than it is to attend synagogue on a Saturday. A sentimental Jewishness for show, when a gentile, is in fact horrid misappropriation of the culture, and in fact, to fall victim to Judaism in your shallow love for phrases and sayings. It's all for show.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy, showmanship, pretending.


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JFW Nov 30, 2023

Could peace actually be possible….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph9XF39yjgU

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savannah Nov 30, 2023


"I guess I'll just ask this question: what is your opinion of the Jew?"

________________

Relevantly speaking:

I don't have any opinion regarding anyone's ethnicity.

Mankind is made in the image of God. Any value that humanity (born & unborn) posseses is due to Whose image they bear by creation. You may as well ask,"What Is your opinion of the Asian, African, Mexican, Palestinian, Ukrainian...", and so on, fill in the blank. My answer is the same. As all God-fearing, Christ-loving people ought to answer.

And, so far as your false accusation of me, "changing of those scripture verses" or exhibiting "A sentimental Jewishness for show", or having a "shallow love for phrases and sayings", it is summarily unwarranted and unfounded. The Bible translation I copied and pasted those verses from used those words and phrases. So according to you, they are also guilty of having a "shallow love of phrases and sayings."

In reality, it's your own bias and cognitive dissonance leading you to have such an opinion of me as a son of God who has passed from death to life.

"THE LORD knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are worthless.” Therefore, let no man glory in the children of men, for everything is yours, Whether Paul, or Apollo, or Kaypha, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things future; everything is yours. And you are The Messiah's and The Messiah is GOD'S." 1 Cor. 3

"And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29

That same verse has been translated by one you'd accuse of having a "shallow love for phrases and sayings, thus;

"And if you are of The Messiah, you are therefore the seed of Abraham and heirs by The Promise." Gal. 3:29

I was not aware that this was a truth or dare thread!

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ESchaible Nov 30, 2023

Yes, I would say the same regarding that "translation".

Heirs ACCORDING to the promise, not however, according to the flesh (wait for the numerous out of context scriptures regarding the flesh).

It's funny how Paul is never read as Paul should be read, in context.

These discussions are impossible, because no one can just read the Bible anymore, everyone has to interpret it. "Hath God really said...?" - it's the oldest rebellion in the book, but I guess that depends on your interpretation.


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savannah Nov 30, 2023

Thanks for that clip JFW, you may find this one of interest as well. Maybe you have seen it already though.

https://youtu.be/k-sIbtnz1eI?feature=shared

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deltadom Nov 30, 2023

What you don't understand with this conflict it is more a spiritual war

Sahih al-Bukhari 2926
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Messenger (ï·º) said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.

the Muslims attacked all the way up to Spain

In this broadcast you will understand the nature of the Muslims
https://www.youtube.com/live/vHtQv_YsQBc?si=7jhZlcOAkKYPz6B8

Qur'an surah 4.4
Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land is death, crucifixion, cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, or exile from the land. This ˹penalty˺ is a disgrace for them in this world, and they will suffer a tremendous p
Ounishment in the Hereafter

Qur'an 96:6
Sahih International: Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.


David wood explains about the conflict
https://youtu.be/BJiX9_spvak?si=Y4IhNu8bQgUrH3fn


Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it


What you don't understand is that Muslims don't care they want to make the whole world islamic and once they go after the Jews they will go after Christians

Lebanon is an example as it was formerly a Christian nation

What you don't understand is that Hamas who is part of the Muslim brotherhood want the destruction of Israel that is why they chant from the river to the sea which is the destruction of Israel entirely

As 80 percent of the bible is based in Israel , the apostles were Jewish , jesus is Jewish

Piers Morgan is very ignorant on the subject as he had some skeptical people on his show when he had rabbi schumley and the islamic person wanted to kill him

With standing for Israel
Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

Jer 31
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

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JFW Dec 1, 2023

Yes this (how Alan Dershowitz framed it) situation where Israel had to respond and there would inevitably be civilian casualties (lots of children due to the population density) that could then be used to leverage Israel, on the world stage, from their moral high ground. By attacking the Israeli people in such a barbaric way, they guaranteed their would be an opportunity to trap them as it were, in that because of Israel’s superior military capabilities and wealth, it will appear to many that they are bullies with bombs and at the same time draw attention to the subjective experience of the Palestinians, which will inevitably draw sympathy from many people, whose views of Israel will be changed for the worse.

This, in my view, is especially troubling because Jewish people tend towards a herd mentality and it’s why I had said in Docs original thread, that I thought Israel was being "set up” I just wasn’t sure by who yet-
The natural disposition of the Jewish people is being effectively weaponized against them, by drawing them into a lose lose scenario that could ultimately become, tho we pray not, extremely costly, in ways we have not yet really imagined.

The issue regarding the peace agreement with SA and the subsequent (proposed) canal in/through Gaza really helps to bring everything into focus.
Due to the fundamental restructuring of region of that were to come to fruition, there are many vested interests on both sides with lots to lose/gain…
This would make the Suez Canal and all that depends on its profitability suddenly on shaky ground if not virtually obsolete. This is why Elon Musk said recently "He wanted to rebuild Gaza”… it’s a veritable goldmine for the future movement of goods out of Asia, thru UAE -SA, into Israel, thru the new canal and into Europe. Effectively making Israel the defacto gatekeeper of the flow of goods from the Far East to Europe. Obviously the implications strike both hope and fear in the hearts and minds of those affected. A situation where one group’s prosperity is another group’s peril….

It is embarrassing tho, that secular humanists apparently have a better grasp of the situation than the church,… this should not be so.
"Blessed are the peacemakers”, comes to mind as well as "I would not have you be ignorant”.
And as such we, the body should be leading the way because we have the remedy, the only peace to be had, is through Christ ✝️


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deltadom Dec 1, 2023

Do you know how much aid has gone into Gaza and do you know what they have done with that money they used pipes to build rockets and they used concrete for housing to build terror tunnels so that they can attack Israel
Elon musk putting massive amounts of money into Israel is not going to change the ideology of the people living there
As before 2005 when Israel controlled the region there was no rockets firing from that area
It is alot different if you have actually been there as I was in Israel in September
If you had people firing rockets from Mexico what would you do on a regular basis
As I have been on a zoom call with people in Israel and they have had to rush to there bomb shelters because more rockets are being fired from Gaza

People who are secular don't understand the situation out there as they would not be calling for a 2 state solution as when we are dealing with this situation the problems are rooted in islam

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JFW Dec 1, 2023

Well, (for me) it’s less about Judaism or Islam and more about both groups patently rejecting Gods messiah, His cross, His gospel, His kingdom… again (for me) "if” (and that’s a big "if”) we the body of Christ actually love these people, then we will unashamedly minister the gospel of repentance to them all, otherwise our words and deeds are devoid of life and (in my view) constitute hate towards both parties -

While I have personally not yet travelled to the region, I do have very close personal friends that are native Jewish Israelis and even amongst them there exists a great division on these issues. Interestingly I’ve seen and read how many of the religious groups in the region are opposed to the occupation.
It’s such a convoluted situation with so many conflicting interests that, in the absence of Christ, there remains no hope but only certain destruction of all whom reject Him -
As a side note, my brother in law spent a little over 6yrs in Israel, Syria, Jordan digging human remains on biblical sites to obtain his phd in anthropology and when he left initially to go, he held the traditional starry eyed view of Israel but it seems his time there and the things he witnessed caused him to reform his views/understanding and is patently against the Israeli occupation of the area.
Primarily it was the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians that helped to form his perspective. I can remember the disgust (bordering on disbelief) with which he spoke of the things he’d witnessed. This is not uncommon as dr Maté explained in the video.

(for me) it’s important not to, tho we often do, credit the people of Israel with the idea and subsequent liberties of being saved and regenerate , as yet they remain unrepentant and as Christians this should be our sole objective regarding the issues and people there. Which is to say, if you want to unite the two parties, then simply go and boldly proclaim Christ and Him crucified and you will find that these parties will unite in their hate for you and the gospel 🤷🏽”â™‚️
But as Christians we have no NT scriptural basis to advocate much less participate in any other endeavor regarding these respective people as all other sides are squarely under the wrath of God until which time they repent and obey the gospel 🙏🏻

While I am obviously biased towards Israel due to my personal associations , the acts against the people of Gaza appears to no longer be tolerated by the greater international community. This could, and likely will, result in secular Israel being stained in a way they lack the capacity to overcome, due primarily to their tendency towards group think/heard mentality. In my understanding, this holds the potential for consequences far beyond what has been considered thus far. Meanwhile, the western church, can’t seem to agree on whether drag queens in the pulpit are kosher 😳 wether same sex relationships are sinful, wether abortion is a right, etc…
Everyone seems far more concerned with not offending each other effectively being judged by one another, rather than fearing God… being concerned about offending Him and being concerned about His judgement. We can’t even keep our own house in order,… not because we don’t understand the conditions of the covenant but because we refuse to abide/enforce them in our own lives much less in our assemblies.


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deltadom Dec 1, 2023

That's a more rounded belief as if you have been there as a Christian there are areas that I cannot get to because of the Palestines as Hebron and that region have links back to king David

I agree that all groups whether you need the gospel whether Jewish or Arab

I am not starry eyed when it comes to Israel as I have evangelised to orthodox Jews in Stamford hill and no the plight that some of my Jewish Christian friends not only fact as the orthodox Jewish community is harder to witness to than Muslims and any other community

There are 47 Arab countries in which the residents of Gaza could go to
I have worked with both Arabs and others when I did a dig in 2016

As a Christian there is no Israeli occupation as that land fairly belongs to Israel and even with Gaza , Israel does not occupy that land

The coins and the pottery point to the fact that Israelis have been there a very long time

As Christians , the word comes from the word Messiah
We worship the real Messiah (Christ)
We cannot detract that when we are talking about the gospels as luke was the only gentile who wrote a new testament book

We are in a war , the problem is even with our society I do not want a Muslim state

When you are in Israel you hear the Muslim prayer calls in the morning or them shooting wildly in the air with guns on Ramadan or the crazy things you see them do in Jerusalem

I want the Arabs saved as much as the Jewish community and I would say the Jewish community
The context of Jesus Christ and him crucified makes no sense if we are not dealing with the jesus of the bible

There are many other Jesus out there but even when he was nailed on the cross , he had nailed jesus King of the Jews
That is the jesus we are dealing with

Jesus was nailed on a Roman cross during the 1st century in Jerusalem under the Roman occupation of Israel

This is what is insane as most of the bible when it talks about Israel it talks about areas in Israel such as the Galilean foothills or the Judean desert in which John the baptist or Capernaum where peters mum got healed

The bible out of its Israel context makes no sense and would be as confused as the gobdlegook of the Qur'an

The reason I stand with Israel because jesus the Messiah is Jewish and his people are not perfect and neither is the government in Israel but I would rather stand with them than the Muslims

People don't know history they don't know the fact that if it wasn't for the crusades , England would be a Muslim country and so would be America

I have evangelised up speakers corner and saw many Muslims go and fight for Isis

It is so ironic that people do not consider Hamas as bad as Isis

You cannot as most western thinkers think that Israel and Gaza is simply like the situation like northern Ireland and the IRA and can be solved through diplomatic means

When we had the war with Isis we understood we had an enemy and as a Christian is worthwhile that we know we have an enemy who is the devil

When we preaching Jesus Christ and him crucified
We are talking about the jesus the Messiah who was prophesied in alot of old testament passages and who fulfilled alot of old testament passages regarding him being the Messiah
Jesus was crucified on a Roman cross during the first century and buried in the tomb of a Jewish sage

The previous time I was there in Jerusalem during Easter time and when celebrating jesus resserection I do not want Jerusalem to be split into two

I would love to go back to the garden tomb area which is in the heart of a Muslim area and celebrate the fact they my jesus rose from the dead
Which would be impossible to do at the moment because I do not have the money

I walked through massive amounts of Muslims who were celebrating Ramadan on Easter Sunday or resserection Sunday in Israel
If we are celebrating the fact that jesus rose from the dead

I do not want to be in a Muslim area in which I celebrate Christmas and Easter rather than Ramadan and Ede

I do not want to hear the Muslim prayer call and I would rather hear the church bells for revival

When jesus returns and he will
Do you think he is going to be happy about those that have not supported his people

Are degradation in the west is that we have lost our focus , like you I am upset concerning the fact that are Christians are discussing same sex marriage and all other types of perversity
While the Muslim birth rate increases , with things like same sex marriage , abortion , porbography succeeding to decrease our population and succeeding very well

If we dont stand for Israel will the UK and America be next b

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ESchaible Dec 1, 2023

I would just add this right now to the discussion:

Rather than make our stances and doctrines rest upon our human perspectives, affinities, political leanings or anything else, we should be aligning our views with those of God Himself. There is a danger in looking at any situation, this one especially, in interpreting circumstances and where our affections and loyalties lay based on our past experiences, friendships, loyalties, what we have witnessed or seen, or anything else that is not the clear written expression of God in scripture.

Jesus and His teachings are to be the foundation upon which we build our views of anything at all, not least of all our opinions of all things pertaining to the Jewish people. The scriptures are clear and explicit regarding these things, and to juggle them, or reinterpret them based on anything is a strong delusion.


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JFW Dec 1, 2023

Thank you for your candor :)
I can totally relate/understand where you’re coming from and can agree with most of it, and the parts we don’t agree on are for us both quite personal and neither are likely to change-

Having said this, the issue facing the world today is that the argument for artifacts being a basis to lay claim to current land holdings is flimsy at best and would, if enforced on that basis, turn the world upside down, and not in a good way -
So that leaves their claim according to the scriptures which aren’t exactly commonly accepted….
Meanwhile they are in violation of international law, resulting in the destruction of people, not dehumanized animals as they are often portrayed.
As such, the international community will at sure point be forced to respond and this can only be bad for Israel….
Uou are correct in saying that Jesus is the Kimg of the Jews, and just as it was before "in those days Israel was without a king, and everyman went about doing what appeared to be right in his own eyes and became a law unto himself” so it is today - until they accept Christ there is no hope only trucks and lies from a depraved and crooked generation 🤷🏽”â™‚️

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deltadom Dec 2, 2023

Maybe you don't understand that scripture

Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

International law is not god's law

Deu 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not

Our bible that we use on a daily basis is the evidence that they should be in the land and the Arabs have no right to the land as even the Arabic names of cities are taken from Jewish ones

I do not understand as a Christian how many can hate Israel to me it does not come from jesus
If you love jesus , you must love the bible and so love Israel

Jesus is returning not to new York the home of the un he is returning to Jerusalem

We would not have a bible as most of the apostles are Jewish who wrote the scriptures

In scripture god calls Israel the apple of his eye and would you mess with someone who calls the apple of his eye and the thing is even when we are talking about the new covenant it was made with Israel

Has the whole Christian world turned crazy the hatred for Israel can only come from one place

Psalms 2
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? note note

2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. note

6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. note note

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. note

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


We live in a world with many jesus,s and until we worship the right one and not try and make one in our own image and our own likeness
We worship a Jewish Messiah and who lived in the Galilee region for most of his life , he did not come from new York or England but in Israel
Getting the right image of jesus as you are right people have come up with a jesus made up in there own image and own likeness and it is not the jesus of the bible

Is it us who is coming up with a jesus in our imagination

S
savannah Dec 2, 2023


deltadom wrote,

"I do not understand as a Christian how many can hate Israel to me it does not come from jesus
If you love jesus , you must love the bible and so love Israel"

_________________________

The reason that you don't understand is because you make not holding to your view of Israel = with hating Israel.

I know of Muslims and other religious sects who hate both Israel and christians. But I don't know of any christians on sermonindex or elsewhere who hate Israel.

Would to God that all christians would stand with,defend, support, and love Jesus. And that they'd do so infinitely moreso than they love anything or anyone else.

Yet there are some christians who want to argue with, and try to persuade God's people, to stand with, defend and support those who hate God's Son, our Lord and Savior and King.

"If any place will not receive you nor hear you, departing from there, shake off the dust which is under your feet, for a testimony against them....And whoever will not receive you nor will hear your words, shake off the dust of your feet going forth out of that house or that city! Truly I say to you, on the day of judgment, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and of Gomorrah than for that city." Jesus

E
ESchaible Dec 2, 2023

Dom,

I heard it said that God created man in His image; and man, ever the gentleman, returned the favor.


Savannah,

Why is it always what man thinks and feels toward God as your reply, and never what God thinks and feels?

The error in discussing this topic lays squarely in that one thing, focusing on man and his feelings, thoughts, loyalties, and ignoring what God has clearly outlined in scripture as His.

Your posts about caring for, and defending Jesus and all of the rest sound pious, but it is simply a way to avoid the actual discussion, and rest in trusted religious piety rather than follow the teachings and clear words of Jesus.

Jesus didn't say blessed are they that speak piously, or even correctly; He said blessed are they that do, for they will know.

When you say things like that, appealing to mans fears of seeming like they don't actually love Jesus, and using that as an argument to persuade, well... Frankly that is from the pit of hell, and manipulative through and through. It's a common tactic on this forum, and is void of any real pathos or substance.

Why not reason from scripture and God's point of view? Do you really think Jesus needs our defense? Support? He is God Almighty, not some religious leader trying to start a movement. He is glorified in the heavenlies and the earth is His footstool.

Without going to far off on a tangent, it's already plain that when you speak of Jesus as He actually is, your views of Him needing some support or defense from us is a rather strange stance to take.

Jesus deserves the entirety of our lives, top to bottom. The call to follow is the call to give up everything, even our piety and religious affections in order to truly be His disciple.

What a strange day when Jesus Himself casts people into hell for not standing with the Jews, the least of those, HIS brethren. The church at large today is the prodigals older brother, and will complain and whine when they realize gentiles will have a lesser place even in the new earth/Jerusalem (or I guess in "heaven", as it were), when the 144,000 Jews are saved (the true remnant, not some cliche of religious men), and and Jesus fulfills His prophetic parable, judging men by their treatment of the Jew (for example when they flee judgment and are sifted through the nations in Jacobs trouble - how will you treat them when YOUR life depends on it, and helping them could mean you and your families lives are taken?) , how many will be heard asking, "when did we see you thirsty, naked, in prison?". Jesus will make it plain in that day, His Jewish brethren are dear to His heart, and even the argument of equality, other than under the law as sinners, or in our standing before God when they are born again and in Christ, is not found in scripture (and no, I am not a Jew). There is no Jew or gentile because in God's point of view, all is through, for, to and because of Jesus.

The greatest irony in this discussion is that God came to earth as a man, a Jewish man, and those who claim His salvation and to follow Him, always forget this in some superficial spiritualization of everything Jesus said concerning the Jewish people.

I sometimes think my Bible is a different Bible than some of those on this forum, and I don't think that is accidental. I don't think it is possible to come to such glaringly different conclusions on these crucial matters and all have the Holy Spirit, the same faith, Lord, baptism, and be of the same body. The errors are to grievous and obvious, and to much the opposite of God.

Am I saying stand with political Israel? Absolutely not, that is not Israel, Jacobs descendants are. Standing with Jacob, and that issue, has, is, and will always sift the church, and reveal those who are actually in Jesus, and have Jesus in them.

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