No New Testament justification for war or killing?

I have not been able to find any justification in the New Testament for a disciple of Christ Jesus to physically take up arms with an intent to use deadly force in self-defense, protecting the innocent, or even going to war.

Are there any NT scriptures to that end (before Christ Jesus physically returns again), and I’m just missing them?

Of course the Old Testament is replete with stories of the children of God obeying his voice to kill pagans, that is not what I’m asking about.

Hey Caleb-

What do you think Jesus would have done if he had come upon a man sexually abusing a child? Or even physically abusing a child?

TMK,

What is your answer to that question?

Speculations like these are what lead men to idolatry. We begin to formulate our opinions about what God does, or would do, rather than form our views based on God as He has revealed Himself, and as He actually is.

I am genuinely curious about how your answer that question however.

Rhetorical questions shouldn’t require an answer.

Let’s just say He wouldn’t have turned and walked the other way.

I do know what He did when he saw men abusing His Father’s house.

TMK said:
"Let’s just say He wouldn’t have turned and walked the other way."

What would he have done (not rhetorical)?

A teacher was asked by his students, "What does it mean to love my neighbor as myself." The teacher replied to them this way;

There was a woman going downtown on Broadway to Times Square, when she was attacked by a rapist. He stripped her of her clothes, and he began abusing her. A church-going man happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw what was happening he passed by on the other side. Then , a businessman happened to be going by that way , and when he saw what was happening he passed by on the other side as well. Then a skeptic was traveling by that way, and when he saw what was happening , he had pity on the woman, grabbed the rapist and threw him off of her. His head hit the curb and he laid there unconscious. The skeptic then covered up the woman and brought her to the hospital. He paid the hospital bill in full for her
to be treated and cared for. The next day it was reported that a man was found dead on the side of the road due to a head injury.

Which of these three men do you think illustrates the meaning of "love your neighbor as yourself?" The students replied, "The one who rescued her from the perpetrator.”

"Go and do likewise”, the teacher said.

Thank you for the replies brothers. Todd, that is a very common question I get when discussing this. People go to the extreme "what would you do if?" scenarios.

While I've not come upon someone sexually abusing a child "in the moment", one of our children has been sexually abused by a relative. You can imagine the range of emotions we experienced when we learned about this. We are still dealing with the fall out too. It is excruciating on so many levels.

Savannah, thank you for that parable. Very well written. I see the compassion of the one who came to the rescue of the victim, and hope that I would do the same. Still, it would sadden me if the perpetrator died apart from Christ Jesus, heinous though their crime is. But I must have faith that God will always do what is right and perfectly just with each precious soul He creates. I must admit, it does seem as though justice was served in that parable, with the perpetrator reaping what they sowed.

As for no new testament scriptures supporting disciples of Christ Jesus using deadly force for self-defense, protecting the innocent, or fighting in war, I am not surprised.

May all disciples of Christ Jesus on earth unite in walking as he walked! Lord, help us all.

Force need not be deadly. But it may have to be violent. I agree that we would not want to kill someone in 99% of circumstances. Well we would never *want* to. And 99% of us (not in military or police type jobs) would ever be faced with such scenarios. I think God created us to protect when possible. It would not be godly to allow evil men to rape or kill loved ones or innocents.

What was to be done when the menace of Communist, Nazi, and Japanese expansionism put millions in danger along with their countries?

I'm not thinking you have no God given right to right to self defense if you are being threatenend with bodily harm or death. And as the God appointed head of the home, I believe it would be a man's responsibility to protect his family if say his home were broken into and everyone was being threatened.

Turning the other cheek etc. is when you are being insulted, not when you are being threatened with great bodily harm.

Meanwhile, I don't have all the answers. Just sort of thinking out loud here.

It would not be godly to allow evil men to rape or kill loved ones or innocents.

I hear you brother.

And yet God allows it to happen.

And Paul exhorts us to not be overcome by evil, but to overcome evil with good, leaving room for God’s wrath and vengeance.

And Jesus commands us to love our enemies.

I am with you in not wanting to allow evil acts if we come upon them happening in real time, but I trust the Spirit would lead us in the moment to take the appropriate inspired action.

As for the military and police, as disciples of Christ Jesus, I see no caveat or exemption to act with physical violence. Yet for the professing Christian men and women I’ve known that have served in both capacities, I do not judge them. Each person will answer to God.

I will say that it grieves me when I come across professing Christian’s that have militant spirits wanting to act violently against people they are angry with. That is not the Holy Spirit that I know.

All that said, and this is where I am often conflicted, there are countless times I have felt a deep sense of respect and appreciation for law enforcement officers or members of the military.

It is so mysterious to me how God clearly appoints people to those positions of authority, who He seems to use at times to enact what I perceive are righteous judgements and justice, and yet I am called to be a man of peace.

Then of course there are other times when I’m grieved by those same authorities abusing their power.

Ultimately Christ Jesus is the answer to solving every problem.

I’m just working through a lot right now.

Thank you for the conversation everyone.

I'm not thinking you have no God given right to right to self defense if you are being threatenend with bodily harm or death. And as the God appointed head of the home, I believe it would be a man's responsibility to protect his family if say his home were broken into and everyone was being threatened.

This is really a tough one brother and I know what you mean. Yet Jesus provided the perfect example for us regarding what to do when threatened with bodily harm. At times he slipped away and escaped, and we know what sacrifice he ultimately made. Likewise history recalls many saints who have been martyred without defending themselves.

As for the head of the home argument, we live in inner city Minneapolis and have been robbed multiple times on our own property. We were blocks from the riots that broke out after George Floyd died. People have been shot on our block and on the block next over from us. Two cars have been stolen from right in front of our home recently. Yet in my spirit I still do not have peace owning a firearm, much less using one to stop someone. I have really questioned the Lord on all of this asking for his guidance and leadership. How ought we to live in this neighborhood? Or is it time to move?

I have also searched the scriptures extensively on the matter, and see no other way than that of prayer, peace and loving our enemies.

It seems so counterintuitive to instinctive manhood though.

Thus far, my sense is that Christ Jesus within my heart has led me to this place of peacemaking and non-(physical) violence.

There is a deep settledness in my spirit that God is our defender and protector and that He has preserved our families lives thus far, and will for as long as He wills. We might move, but nothing is imminent. Lord knows we talk about it and have prayed about it a lot.

Yet the violence continues and seems to only increase.

I am clinging to passages like this one, longing for effectual warfare….but groaning in the meantime, as it seems like the darkness grows.

2 Corinthians 10:3-4
For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.

Much grace is needed here for the divine power to destroy strongholds. I sure hope that it’s happening, even if I can’t perceive it or see it at this point in time.

Increase my faith, dear Lord!

I sure don’t have all of the answers either dear brother David. Well, actually, we do. KING JESUS! 🙌👑 Hah! But I know what you mean brother.

Caleb, firstly thank you for your humble and relatable treatment of what will inevitably be a sensitive topic due to the personal nature and current circumstances in the world, it clearly shows your kindheartedness and empathy, not to mention your commitment to the cause of Christ and remaining true to your faith 🙏🏻

Secondly, and I’m writing with a huge smile on my face, because my general perspective is that the scriptural structure is basically a military operation. One that’s repeated until completion. Not to say by way of violence of any kind, but operationally, the structure of the 5 fold is (for me) very much akin to a military operation, albeit a spiritual one, with the Church as its base and the Holy Spirit is the commanding officer of us all.
The scripture in 2 Tim 2 comes to mind…
3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier

There are different analogies both literal and prophetic and I’d say even typographic. Joshua 9 & 10 come to mind where I see these events typographically to foreshadow Christs triumphant return and the subsequent death and destruction that follows Him. The judgement of the earth in physical form 😳 it’s something I honestly can’t even begin to comprehend tho I’ve tried.

Having said all this, and more to your point or question- (for me) it’s literally the opposite question 🤷🏽”â™‚️ which is to say, is there a New Covenant scripture that says I should not defend my wife or children or that I can’t ?
Again, for me it’s presumed that anyone, everyone everywhere throughout the span of history has an obligation to defend not only others but also themselves. This is evident even in the animal kingdom, where a momma of most species will defend her offspring. So it would be presumed to be the established norm, as a basic feature of life, even plants defend themselves when they can and sometimes through the most amazing ways (I’m a nerd). Point being is that our God, the one true and living God the Father of our Lord and savior Jesus of Nazareth, is the very one who gave us all the inclination to protect and preserve, which would inevitably include defending due to the fact that we live in a fallen world where sin and violence abound.
I do concede however that this is an individual issue, just how Timothy was far more timid than Paul, and as such would have different boundaries… unlike Stephen who went into the Synagog under the influence of the Holy Ghost and picked a fight on their territory, where for him to defend himself in that context would be contrary to the faith.

I hope that helps to make sense out of why I think like I do 🙏🏻

This article was written iin 2000 and the author was in fellowship with Rousas Rushdoony and the Chalcedon Foundation. I think they were dominoinist and perhpas post-millennial. At any rate, naturally you don't have to agree with everything he wrote. I'm not sure I do, but he raises some interesting points and insight in my opinion. For what is may be worth,see below.

(BEGIN)

WAR,THE BIBLE, AND THE STATE

That the Jehovah God is inherently opposed to war is a pacifist fiction. Israel's wars of extermination, outlined vividly in the Old Testament, refute the suggestion that God is opposed to war at all times and under all conditions. It is essential, however, to understand the objective of and context within which those wars were to be waged. In a unique dispensation, God granted Israel the land of Canaan. The tribes and nations occupying it at the time were blatantly heathen, and their sins were particularly repellant (Dt. 9:1-5). Israel as God's covenant people were called to expel these nations from a land rightfully Israel's own. In essence, they were defending their own property.

War and the State

This is a key element in the Biblical justification for war, and it relates directly to the Biblical role of the state. According to the Bible, the state is a legitimate institution, but its scope is severely limited. In Romans 13, St. Paul makes clear that it exists to punish external evildoers. By what standard? By the standard of God's written law.1 In large measure, this reduces to a defense of what the early Americans considered that great trio of "rights," life, liberty, and property. It employs the force of coercion to protect against murder, rape, pillage, kidnapping, and so forth. It does not exist to redistribute wealth. It does not exist to furnish education. It does not exist to guarantee medical and retirement benefits or any "social security." In fact, according to the Bible, the state is a greatly decentralized institution, growing out of the family (Dt. 1:13-17). Local magistrates are charged with "keeping the peace," and families authorize their role. In modern terms, we may say that the strongest politician in the country should be your local sheriff. His sole job is to suppress external evildoing ”” defined according to Biblical law.

Protection from Foreign Invasion

But if he is called to protect life, liberty, and property, he must protect it not only from domestic offenders, but also from alien offenders ”” foreign invasion. The Biblical state protects against tyranny from within (crime) and tyranny from without (invasion). There is no Biblical justification for war except to protect against tyranny from without ”” invasion. This means, in modern terms, that the state must be a "dove" when contemplating the invasion of any other nation's borders and a "hawk" when protecting its own border.

The Tyranny of the "Nation-State"

The fundamental flaw of almost all modern ideas of war is that they are undergirded by a fallacious view of the state. Today the state is almost always seen in terms of the "nation-state." It is a mammoth, maternalistic entity depicting itself in virtual organic terms (this began in earnest during the European nationalism of the nineteenth century). In blatant violation of God's law, the modern state extorts an excess of property from its citizens in the form of taxation, conscripts its citizens to fight illegitimate wars, and employs coercion to guarantee its own bloated bureaucracy (1 Sam. 8). The modern state is really nothing more than a legalized cartel. These legalized cartels ”” whether fascist, communist, Nazi, or Western "democratic" - have developed a habit of bullying their wishes on other nations. This is the cause of the vast majority of wars in human history though, in the last 200 years, this cause has been dressed up by appeal to certain ideologies, "defending human rights," "preventing ethnic cleansing," and so on. Hitler's totalitarian perversion was more straightforward ”” we Aryan racists need more land. Stalin's justification for his totalitarian perversion was more high-sounding though no less horrifying: we must free the world's workers from capitalistic exploitation. Hitler and Stalin were both monsters at the head of legalized cartels, though Stalin was by far the more destructive of the two. Western democrats more readily accept justification for murder under the guise of protection against capitalist exploitation than murder under the guise of protection against polluting the master race's gene pool. Both are godless and abhorrent, though Western democrats are more inclined to accept godlessness and abhorrence when it salves their envy and hatred for the accumulation of property, rather than their envy and hatred of some other race. The recent American wars against Iraq and Serbia are not materially different from Hitler's invasion of Poland and Stalin's invasion of Eastern Europe. All three employed the power of coercion ”” of a legalized cartel ”” to impose its will on another nation. Both Saddam Hussan and Slobodan Milosevic are in fact little tin-pot dictators who routinely deprive their citizens of life, liberty, and property ”” as all legalized cartels tend to do. But the American bombing missions did not solve this problem ”” it only deprived many more people of life, liberty, and property.

Godless, totalitarian regimes like those in Islamic nations and communist China can be gradually overcome by the methods Christians employed in overcoming the godless totalitarian regime known as the Roman Empire ”” self-government, personal godliness, covenant faithfulness, and patient perseverance under the lash of persecution.2 The Bible does not permit bombing missions, legalized murder, and the incineration of innocent civilians as an instrument to overturn the tyranny of evil regimes.

This general Christian approach toward war is the heritage of America's Old Right (conservatives). Murray Rothbard notes:

The Old Right applied its aversion to [civil] government to foreign policy as well as domestic. It held the increasing interventions of the American government in the affairs of other nations to be illegitimate, and even imperialist, intrusions that benefited neither the American people nor the world as a whole.3

Most pre-World War II conservatives were known as "isolationists" (really they should have been called "non-interventionists"), for, as Rothbard observes, they feared both the domestic and foreign intrusions of civil government. Most of today's conservatives have abandoned their great Christian heritage, and have adopted the rabid military internationalism of William F. Buckley, National Review, George W. Bush, Bob Dole, John McCain, and other establishment Republicans. All these have joined the international militarists on the Left (i.e., Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Bill Bradley) and the great collaboration of America's legalized military cartel. Power tends to corrupt, asserted Lord Acton, that great defender of Christian liberty, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Power in the hands of a legalized cartel is dangerous indeed - particularly when it is devoted to murder, pillage, and holocaust in foreign nations.

The only possible solution is a return to Biblical Christianity and its program of overcoming sin by peaceful change: the glorious gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, self-government, and godly families and churches, and a free market undergirded by moral premises.

Notes

1. Rousas John Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (no loc., 1973).

2. Ethelbert Stauffer, Christ and the Caesars (London, 1955).

3. Murray N. Rothbard, "The Foreign Policy of the Old Right," Journal of Libertarian Studies, Vol. 2, No. 1, 85.

P. Andrew Sandlin

P. Andrew Sandlin is a Christian minister, theologian, and author. He is the founder and president of the Center for Cultural Leadership in Coulterville, California. He was formerly president of the National Reform Association and executive vice president of the Chalcedon Foundation. He is a minister in the Fellowship of Mere Christianity.. He was formerly a pastor at Church of the Word in Painesville, Ohio (1984-1995) and Cornerstone Bible Church in Scotts Valley, California (2004-2014).

Btw Caleb, I live in Bemidji, MN. About 4 hours north of you. Howdy neighbor.

This is an interesting question

Even thou I do not believe in war
I do not want a Muslim caliphate in London or in my country

Matt 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up again thy sword into his place, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

I also don't want to see Christians wiped out like they are in Armenia

From a biblical perspective it says flee but what happens in the world if there is no where to flee

Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

What if you had vast hordes of people attacking you and doing what they did in the Oct massacre such as beheading people , raping women and children

As previous generations fought for our freedoms I think we have lost

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

So to answer the question concerning what God does to the rapist or abuser? Well, this is the answer. Seems foolishness to the world, and only the disciple can truly understand.

The judgment seat is God's business, and He will judge every man according to what he has done. But in this life, we are called to follow Jesus, and this is what He said.

We can offer interpretations and ask "Did God really say...", but that's the trap of Satan, dating clear back to the garden. Jesus calls us to simple obedience, and He will figure out the rest.

Amen brother Evan!

It’s so simple.

Yet it’s not easy (for us).

In fact, it’s impossible for us, apart from Christ Jesus.

We need his life lived in and through us.

In my first say 10 years of a Christian walk I would have considered myself a complete pacifist but after more study of the Bible and trying to keep the bible into practical context I think the Bible doesn't teach that when a person is converted that they have to give up their job as a Centurion or a law and order person like a police or even a military defender so to speak or a king or a magistrate or any of those types of law promoting jobs.

I don't think John the Baptist taught against the new covenant reality when he told the centurion to be happy with their wages and not to take it any further than that by extorting or doing violence I think the only thing that's good in the world is when to radical authoritarian governments and societies are actually penetrated by Christian morals and Christian thought.

The early church as it spread would have had Christians in all walks of life and I don't believe Paul the apostle taught them as gentiles that they need to leave their areas of work or areas of influence, Paul said to remain in the calling that you were in and I believe that would include whatever job that you may have had not to be concerned about it but to take the gospel take prayer take morals into that area whether you're Centurion a treasurer his thought was to get everyone converted Paul said he desires that all men all types of men may be saved so therefore pray for Kings and governors.

These types of positions were responsible for defending and were responsible for the punishment that was dealt out by the ministers of judgment as Paul put it who was sent to punish evil doers and to reward those who do good.

I actually think it's one of the biggest mistake Christians make that they pull out of society because they believe society is evil and had nothing to do with government or lawmaking magistrates or defending the vulnerable and weak through the police force or even the army.

Not to defend The corruption that has taken place within Christiandome as a whole through the Dark ages but as far as what's good in the world is thanks to Christian value system that has actually penetrated into the culture and the government and has overcome the Antichrist system of the Dark ages brought us out of living like peasants under the rule of authoritative wicked rulers where we can actually have a civilized world I think that is truly what the kingdom of God is meant to do. It was to affect the kingdoms of this world. Recall in revelations a verse that says the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ so there's a transferral of kingdom culture and morals that when it affects enough people good can come out of that.

If we can compare the governments that were raised up during the first and second great awakenings and then after that we're living in a time where we actually have more freedom to practice religion and that would be the goal and that is why Paul said pray that we may live a quite in peaceful life for God desires all types of mento be saved.

It was thanks to men who had a purified heart through out pourings of the Holy spirit and revival and awakenings and the postmilinial mindset that Satan will continue to lose ground even one person at a time, was the reason that we're not ruled completely by the Antichrist spirit that had control of many of the kings and the pope and the church itself.

Being persecuted for your faith is different from being accosted by evildoers in your home or on the street who mean to do you or loved ones harm. They are not even enemies in the true sense of the word. They are wicked thugs.

Loving my neighbour includes protecting the weak and vulnerable