Just Seeking Your Thoughts. Many Members One Body

There has always been a remnant, the very body of Christ placed around the entire world. Those who are born again, born anew through repentance and faith by Christ alone and the Holy Spirit's indwelling, by the very will of God the Father! I had never heard the term remnant before until brother Frank, nor testing brethren till brother Greg anyways. Now I grasp there are some stark differences concerning, and somethings even perhaps some ways God communicates with us depending on our part in God's body that are different. The same way He uses us in different ways many times! However, through the Holy Spirit within us there should be some kind of inward knowing through His Holy Spirit who has indwelt us as a seal of things to come, to be able to recognize our brothers and sisters in Christ. I know all do not have distinguishing between spirits, none of us have all the giftings, except Christ our Lord! However, for us to love the brethren with the love we are commanded to love the brethren with through Christ Jesus, the Spirit has to have a way He reveals that we are brethren to each other within the different members of Christ body. Myself I feel the Spirit within past and present writings of brethren alive or gone, or when meeting other brethren in person I'll feel the Spirit within them. Do all Christ body parts navigate in that same way, or is it brought forth in a different way? Perhaps based on scripture concerning the essentials of our Lord? I'm just curious how our Lord reveals this amongst the other body parts and thought since I have learned a great deal from constantly reading each of your thoughts for years and years, and almost daily checking out the quotes section:) I would ask you your thoughts. As I try to understand our Lords body as a whole clearer. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

Hi Billy,
I cant understand the relationship you are making between Many members one body and the remnant?
Many Members One Body is interesting though because its about the gifts and the working of the gifts in proper order.When the New Testament talks about Unity its only when the gifts are mentioned,most people miss that.In my opinion most people think Unity is "getting along" together or even "working towards the same vision" but according to the New Testament Unity is the gifts working fully and in order.Thats why the word Unity in the New Testament is only,only mentioned when the gifts are listed .Its not a buddy ,buddy type unity ,its not a sibling type unity where we are "keeping the peace" because we are all one family,no its much more functional ,its the gifts working like body parts and doing only what that part was meant to do in relation to all the other parts i.e
Paul says>
If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body. The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" so that there should be no DIVISION in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.

This is the controversial thing I will say and others will find offensive even if they cant scripturally prove it wrong ...Their can be no real Unity in the Body unless the gifts are working correctly and that means that all the gifts are for today ,they didnt die out 2000 years ago.The Church cant function without the gifts,its like functioning without the Holy Spirit,
urs staff

Thanks for your thoughts, Staff! This was from another brother concerning the question. I thought it edifying as well.

The truth is, true believers with discernment can most certainly detect the Holy Spirit operating in another believer. In fact, in some countries, it is a life or death necessity to be able to "know" whether one is "of the Lord" or "of the enemy," with little or no interaction (no words being spoken). This was the case in communist Romania, for one example, when believers were being tortured and/or killed for simply meeting together, or for openly confessing Christ.

I also found it revealing that this very real, very deadly communist oppression in Romania didn't allow for any sort of courtship, as we know it, among Christians, before marriage. It was well documented that the Lord joined man and woman together in Holy Matrimony based entirely on their mutual subservience to Christ; His leading and His timing. Sometimes they didn't even live in the same community, prior to the Lord joining them together.

My Wife and I can also witness to the Lord truly, in every practical way, joining us together, in this context of mutual subservience to Him . . . and we can witness to sometimes having a clear sense of the Lord's Holy Spirit in other believers, upon first meeting, sometimes before any significant interaction that would reveal "fruit of the Spirit."

So, yes, discernment goes far deeper than just "feelings," but one can understand how it is also difficult to describe in concrete terms. "Our knower simply knows." As Western culture continues to spin into darkness, evil and death, similar to that forced upon those behind the "Iron Curtain" decades ago, this sort of discernment will, once again, become a life or death necessity.

Curtis Egge

I wonder if an emphasis on the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a bit misled? I don't see this in the tenor of the new testament. I see Paul stressing a unity in suffering, doctrine, purpose, but most of all, a unity in our fellowship with Jesus Himself. John echoes this when he says "our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ". This would seem to teach us that unity is only found in a shared communion with Jesus Himself through the cleansing of His blood, and the fellowship of His suffering.

Emphasis on gifts was actually the error of the Corinthian church; and this emphasis on miracles, signs, wonders and "gifts" is also said to be the error of many in the last days, our days. A simple and single eyed following of, and obedience to Jesus is the litmus test of truth, "if you love me, obey my commandments", and it is this obedience that leads people to a true knowing, and a true discernment of who is, and who is not "in the light" and walking with God. These are they that share our fellowship, the ones obeying Jesus, suffering with Him, and have their sins forgiven by, and a covenant sealed with the Father by the blood of Jesus Christ.

One body is the organism of Jesus disciples all indwelt by the same Lord, Jesus Himself. He is abiding in His people, and they become His body through this union of "it is no longer I, but Christ". They share in this fellowship "by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me", walking in the light as He is in the light.

Gifts bring just as much division as unity, or at least they do when they are emphasized above the true foundation of our fellowship, Jesus Himself.

Hi Evan,

If you look at Ephesians 4, it seems like the body is supposed to minister to one another by speaking the truth of the knowledge of Jesus in love to each other for the building up of the body unto Christlikeness. Spiritual gifts distributed and exercised together amongst all the body are supposed to be an essential tool of that process.

1 Corinthians 14 does not, it seems to me, check the Corinthian church in its spiritual gift seeking but only tells them to focus on, even earnestly desire as in "chase after", and seek spiritual gifts as a key expression of God ministering to us through brotherly love for each other. The overemphasis on self edifying gifts and viewing the gifts as a self promotion vehicle was Paul's problem with the Corinthians. I have not always been a proponent of spiritual gifts and this does not come from a predisposition to them.

As I see it, the centralization of gifting into only the leadership is contrary to the mutual building up that I see in Scripture but especially in Ephesians 4 and is counter productive as it is contrary to the plan of God. This is a huge problem in my experience as it is contrary to God's plan and keeps the people under it in perpetual spiritual immaturity and that is the huge problem of the church, especially in places not the US (although I would argue that there are a lot of spiritual babies with huge heads of knowledge in the US)

Suffering with Jesus is likewise critically necessary as a means of knowing Him as you have indicated. In fact, if you avoid it, you won't know Him. Both walking and joining with Jesus in His sufferings as well as the one anothering commands, including the use of spiritual gifts, are all part of the "narrow way".

I get that you are probably reacting to movements and theologies that are way over on the side of focusing on giftings/signs and wonders, etc. I agree that is a big big problem, but we shouldn't stop doing what God said to do which is pursue brotherly love and, consequentially, earnestly desire the spiritual gifts for building up those whom we love.

There are tons of churches that are devoid of the ministry of the saints to one another. They aren't on YouTube of course. The more "public" error, as you point out, is by the international or public focus on "big spiritually gifted" people leading people everywhere and nowhere all at once (muddying the waters for the sheep) instead of a focus on local churches enabling its people to love one another in all kinds of ways including through spirtual gifting.

I said all that to sound out with you and others to see if I'm right in how I read Scripture and in how I am ministering in the churches I serve. I would be full of fear and trembling if I'm approaching it wrongly.

My understanding tracks with yours Robert.

Focus should not be on gifts but they are the means through which God uses his people. Gifts are developed in the secret place and in commitment.

Great athletes display their prowess on the field or court because of countless hours of drudgery in the gym or practice. They may have natural talent but regardless it needs to be developed. People don’t see what’s gone on behind the scenes, they just see the overflow.

So spiritual gifts that are the overflow of devotion and yes even suffering look like 1 Cor. 13. Too many "movements” focus on displaying gifts. People that operate in the gifts without even consciously doing so "have a sacred and inexpressible charm about them that is very satisfying to Jesus,” as Oswald Chambers says.

Robert,

I don't deny the gifts of the Spirit, so please don't misunderstand me. I just don't see them as being taught in the context of unity within the body, or in the context of what it means to be the body of Christ (being and doing are not the same).

The United States, I dare say, is perhaps the most spiritually immature country in the world. We could do with some foreign missionary work here.

It seems to me that Jesus has been dethroned as the cornerstone of our faith, and things have been sought to replace Him, good things all, but not Jesus nonetheless.

I wonder if we gathered around He Himself, what changes in the church we would see.

I agree Evan. Exalting Jesus is the end all of everything, including why any of was created in the first place. Gifting is supposed to be about the supremacy of Jesus also. Yet, often, the gifts or those gifted get idolized more than the Gifter and His purpose for everything which is that Christ would be preeminent in the church.

Just a thought, but what if, instead of saying all of these side issues are ultimately for the glory and supremacy of Jesus, we just focused on that singular point, the glory and supremacy of Jesus, and waited to see if everything else simply followed and flowed naturally from that?

It's one thing to say it in hopes it is true, when more often than not is is blatantly not true. It is quite another to just say it, and believe it to the exclusion of all else, and see what follows. It's a searching question, but do we really want Jesus Himself, come what may? Or do we have some religious box of theology we have to fit Him into, to the detriment of His ultimate will?

It's seems off topic, but I believe being part of one body, and unified in Jesus starts and ends at this singular point.

You still have to deal with Paul’s statement to desire the gifts.

Evan

Is this an approach you could embrace?:

There is a ministry that we are called to do unto Jesus through being one with Him by the Spirit through our adoration, praise, treasuring and love. There is also a ministry we do unto Jesus which is loving the least of his brothers and sisters by meeting their needs....spiritual and physical, because Jesus said whatever you do unto them in meeting needs (or not) you actually in a very real and even critical way, have done directly unto Jesus (or not, which is actually damnable equating serving the saints with worship of Jesus).

In like manner, in order to walk with Jesus in a Koinonia way, we have to be one with Him in His own ministry to the saints such that as we minister for Him we fellowship with Him.

I'm trying to understand your point of just focusing on Jesus and the rest flowing from that. Not trying to be difficult but Jesus said He will manifest Himself or reveal Himself to us as we love Him and obey His commands and this is His command that we love one another (through Him, by Him and for Him). Am I off track with you and if so I'd love to understand more what you are saying?

Obviously, abiding in Jesus is the key and we remain in His love when we obey His commands especially the new commandment to love the brethern. We can't claim to know Him unless we walk in this love. So here your point is well taken, know Him more and thus walk in more brotherly love. Yet, something else is also true. As we walk in the light (especially in loving the brethern), we then have fellowship with the brethern, the Father and the Son and our joy is made perfect.

I know you know those verses so I lay them out as a context for where I'm coming from.

So it seems to me that loving Jesus and loving the brethern is more like a circle going deeper and deeper into God than a straight line of cause and effect.

If you read carefully Paul's exhortation was not to desire gifts - but rather since the Holy Spirit divides gifts as He will, to desire the BEST gifts. He taught the Corinthians to desire those that are for edification of the body, not gifts in general, but as Robert states, those that best show forth a love for the brethren.

If you notice throughout Paul's teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he constantly redirects attention away from the gifts to the giver. It's almost like he is trying to show them that the gifts are not the point, but the giver of the gifts that matters; which I think is why the book doesn't end at chapter 12.

To partially address what you said Robert, I would say as John says, even our love for the brethren is only manifest in our love for, and obedience to Jesus. We know we love the brethren because we love and obey Jesus, the one flows from the other.

It's becoming more and more clear to me as time goes on how literally everything is wrapped up in the person of Jesus, following Him in faith and obedience. I have been coming to Paul's understanding as of late, knowing nothing but Christ and Him crucified. Every answer to every question is right there, Jesus Himself.

I don't know how you can get around these verses that are directly pointing to the gift of tongues and prophesy and explaining how to use them.....

If you read carefully Paul's exhortation was not to desire gifts

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men, but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries in the Spirit.

3 But he who prophesies speaks to men for their edification, encouragement, and comfort.

4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

5 I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, UNLESS he interprets so that the church may be edified.

12 ...Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, strive to excel in gifts that build up the church.

13 Therefore, the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret.

18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

20 Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

21 It is written in the Law:

"By strange tongues and foreign lips I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to Me, says the Lord.”

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for believers, not for unbelievers.

23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who are uninstructed or some unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
24 But if an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes in while everyone is prophesying, he will be convicted and called to account by all,
25 and the secrets of his heart will be made known. So he will fall facedown and worship God, proclaiming, "God is truly among you!”

39 So, my brothers, BE EAGER to prophesy, and DO NOT FORBID speaking in tongues.

God bless,
Lisa

Lisa,

Don't forget that these teachings all have larger context, especially this one. Paul's exhortation here is the same as in chapter 12, but since we have a piece missing from this one, proper interpretative principles would dictate the addition, not subtraction, of Paul's exhortations elsewhere.

I don't understand the incessant need in people to be contrary to one another.

And per usual, if you are responding to what you quoted from me, you have taken both Paul and I out of context then.