Eternal Security Or No Eternal Security?

These passages seems to advocate for eternal security if you are truly saved and have received the grace of God.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6:37”­-”¬40

The will of God as Jesus describes is that he should lose none of his. That anyone who believes and was given to him by the Father (John 6:43-45) would have everlasting life. If when someone believes and are given everlasting life because that is God's will wouldn't it be God's will too, to not lose any of them that believe?

Jesus says about his sheep elsewhere:
"I know my sheep and am known by my own." John 10:14.
"I know them and they follow me." John 10:27.

If someone is really of Jesus' sheep it says they know him, are known by him and follow him.
How can Jesus say to his sheep "I never knew you." Matthew 7:23. Or "I don't know you." Matthew 25:12, Luke 13:27 if they could be lost after receiving salvation?

The other passage:
who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
II Corinthians 1:22

"Earnest" - arrabōn. Appears 3 times: 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:14.
"money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid."

Ephesians 1:13-14 says we are sealed and it's the earnest of our inheritance until the day of redemption. If it's earnest until the day of redemption, how can a true believer lose it? Jesus is "the author and finisher of our faith" and the "good work he began in us he will complete" is it really possible for Jesus to lose one of his sheep?

I cannot understand the other passages like these which are written to believers, they seem to advocate a believer can fall away? There are many more but for the sake of time here are five.
II Timothy 2:12
Hebrews 2:1-3
1 Timothy 4:1
Hebrews 6:1-6
Hebrews 3:7-19

Words to His disciples -
From John 6:

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
((((67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.))))
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

There are two trees ,…
Many feed on the "good” fruit from the wrong tree, or so it would seem.

Hey Justin3378,

If you think salvation can be lost, what conditions would precipitate it? That's something which you did not elaborate in your post.

I had penned a post on this issue of "eternal security" in another thread - check it out, perhaps it might speak to you:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=66391&forum=35

Paul blaming Peter in Galatians 2:11-14 indicates that 1. We are never immune to sinning 2. Peter is being censored because amongst others he should not continue therein (in sin) lest death should result - James says: ...and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

With this said, I would like to therefore maintain that any verse we think suggests unconditional eternal security is simply being misunderstood.

Peter 3:16 says: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I've been ministering in the woman's jail going on 17 years this year. when I first went in there, I asked all of them, "Who here has been saved?" BOOM! Every hand went up, I said awesome! But my spirit was heavy because I was taught different! So when I went home, I spent days praying about it.

Some reading this will believe me and some won't. It's ok, that's between you and the Lord. But during this time, the Lord spoke to me and showed me Romans 15:17: "and thus I make it my ambition to preach the gospel, not where Christ has already been named, lest I build on someone else’s foundation..."

He told me to NEVER tell them they are not saved but instead, to teach them how to walk with Him thus loving Him. And that's what I've done to the best of my ability for 17 years.

I used to love to come on here and debate (when it was the wild, wild west in these forums) but I've found that these discussions and debates are a distraction that keep us from hearing from the Lord on these matters.

What do I mean? From these discussions, we study to dig our heels into a matter, "OUR" opinion! And imho, we don't take time to pray and get "GOD'S" opinion on the matter.

Souls are at stake here, not our opinion. And I believe that the Scriptures teach both sides, depending on the situation, but who knows the situation? God does!! And we must yield to Him. We don't want to crush someone's soul.

God bless,
Lisa

I recently did a deep dive study on this. I would encourage anyone to make a list of all of the passages that seem to indicate more of a OSAS perspective. Then, carefully study them in context, read them in several trusted translations, and look at several trusted commentaries. Is the context salvation and whether or not you can lose it?

Then I would encourage anyone to make a list of passages that seem to indicate you can lose your salvation and do the same.

Do this with fresh eyes, as if you have never had an opinion on the subject, if this is possible.

I believe in a limited eternal security. By that I mean this. Committing an act of sin does not cause you to lose salvation. Rest easy, you will not fall away because you sinned. Salvation is much more secure than that.

Yet, you can cast away your confidence. You can fail to continue in the faith and reject your salvation. Some would say these people were never saved to begin with, but I think scripture refutes this idea pretty explicitly.

Travis wrote:
Rest easy, you will not fall away because you sinned. Salvation is much more secure than that.

***LIKE***

I find it interesting that threads concerning this doctrine always serve as a relief to people that they can sin and still be saved - or trying to figure out how many sins they can commit before God gets fed up - or someone else claiming God is a petty child that gets angry and throws you away every time you sneeze wrong - or any number of man centered and completely useless red herrings.

The whole emphasis and focus of this debate is wrong and to be completely honest, from the pit of hell.

I find it interesting that threads concerning this doctrine always serve as a relief to people that they can sin and still be saved - or trying to figure out how many sins they can commit before God gets fed up - or someone else claiming God is a petty child that gets angry and throws you away every time you sneeze wrong - or any number of man centered and completely useless red herrings.

The whole emphasis and focus of this debate is wrong and to be completely honest, from the pit of hell.

I would agree that there are people for whom the topic is self-serving. You are right about that. But I encounter a much greater number of people whose heart is to leave sin as far behind as possible. They would never sneeze at sin, but they find themselves being human and missing the mark. For those, it is an important question to answer.

Travis, this is a very important subject to discuss and many Christians are deceived on this issue. You have one type of Christain that when they sin, they get under the condemnation of the devil and the devil lies to them that they were never saved in the first place, or they wouldn’t have committed the sin, so there’s constant doubt and fear as to their salvation , so these Christians really need to be rooted and grounded in eternal security through faith and abiding in Christ. Their righteousness is through Jesus Christ and God promises that all those repent and confess their sins have forgiveness, and their sins are cleansed by the blood and forgiven. No condemnation to those that are in Christ. Now on the opposite extreme, you have another group of Christians that believe that they can sin without any consequences, because of saying a prayer to accept Jesus as savior. They are going to be shocked when they don’t make it into Heaven, and there are scriptures that I could quote concerning all of this and maybe I will at a later date, but those Christians that are abiding in Christ , God will keep them and save them to the very end, those Christians that do not abide in Christ, but continue in sin without repentance, The word of God says that the father will cut them off.

//always serve as a relief to people that they can sin and still be saved - or trying to figure out how many sins they can commit before God gets fed up -//

I have never met a person with this attitude who also claimed to be born again. If I did meet one, the simple answer is they are not born again.

Mike: I would say I see it about the same way. Looks to me like you are identifying two groups. The truly saved, and the ones who are not truly saved. It is interesting that the ones who say, "Lord, Lord, did we not do such and so?" are truly believing that they are OK, or at least seem to be sure.

John 15 is one of those scriptures that seem to indicate that we can lose a salvation that we once had, among quite a few others that are pretty clear in my opinion.

always serve as a relief to people that they can sin and still be saved - or trying to figure out how many sins they can commit before God gets fed up

Todd: I have met people in this category. It is usually someone who has a besetting sin in which they struggle with having victory. They are truly born again, but they have a weakness in the flesh that they struggle to overcome. They seem to be in the same category that Mike described. For them, knowing that their salvation is secure, even as they struggle to have victory and obey, is a big deal. And, I believe it is secure in this circumstance. When it is not secure, as far as I understand scripture, is when we turn away from the faith, when we choose to abandon our faith in God. That scenario is addressed in Hebrews as well as several of Paul's letters and the statements are pretty explicit.

How do we know that we are truly born again? Because the sins that we would commit when we were dead in sins did not grieve us, but after receiving Jesus as savior and Lord, there was conviction, the peace and fellowship with God departed, and we were truly miserable until we repented and confessed the sin.

Travis, you are right that many Christians find themselves in a Romans 7 experience. They hate their sin, but the harder they try to loose themselves, the more they sin, until they come to the point that they cry out "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me? Then the Holy Spirit can show them Jesus as their deliverer.

There are also many in the Church that have prayed a salvation prayer, but are not truly born again, have never repented, and have receiver a perverted grace message.

A person who hates their sin and wants to stop is a far cry from someone who wants to know how much sin they can "get away with.”

"One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely. This is what happens when one hears, believes, and does not rebel against the proclamation of Christ's Kingship. Baptism is the public submission to the Crown, and a pledge to loyally follow Him until death. Many reduce the Gospel to a decree of justification only. However, justification, in the context of the Kingdom of Christ, is simply the amnesty granted by the King to penitent rebels, as they return in submission to the Authority they formerly spurned.

One is not saved by 80% obedience””nor by 100% obedience (which actually is possible over short periods, by the way). One is saved by having genuinely embraced the King and the life that logically follows from having such a King. None obeys completely, but we are commanded to do so, and true disciples have every intention of doing so. Failure to obey completely is a breach of the King's law, but it is not, in itself, damning. To inadvertently violate the speed limit is not to renounce your citizenship. Likewise, a child is not disowned by his parents because he forgets to do a particular assigned chore. There is grace in this Kingdom for those whose disobedience springs from weakness, ignorance or temporary insanity (James 3:2), and not from rebellion (Matt.26:41).

The Gospel is not a message of performance-oriented acceptance with God. We are saved by the grace of the Crown, and we obey because we love the King. If we do not love the King, whatever begrudged obedience we may render is a sham. It is not salvation.” ~~Steve Gregg

Travis said:
"They would never sneeze at sin, but they find themselves being human and missing the mark."

It's interesting you bring this up. I just had a conversation with a dear brother where this exact excuse was discussed, that of being "merely human".

Paul's says, "I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, "I follow Paul,” and another, "I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.” (1 Corinthians 3:2-6)

Interesting how Paul condemns that mentality in this context, but I believe it's condemned in every context of the Christian life. We are not "merely human" as born again, sanctified believers. We are given the very person of Jesus Christ within, the divine nature, that is the mystery of godliness.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..." (1 Timothy 3:16)

A follower of Jesus is not just human, but humanity indwelt by deity - the great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ. It is NOT imitation of Jesus, but impartation of Jesus. God, manifest in the flesh of His people, Christ in you, the hope of glory. It is the great mystery of true faith - hid for ages and generations - the life of Christ in His people, nay - Jesus Himself in His people. Not power to be holy, but the impartation and sufficiency of the person of Jesus within by the Holy Spirit.

Just human... That word "just" is a villainous word. We are "just" nothing - just a man, just a sinner, just a worm... Just nothing. We are redeemed and purchased by the blood of God Himself. We are His purchased possessions, and He gives us nothing other than Himself.

We can always appeal to men to justify anything. I can find someone somewhere that will argue vehemently that 2+2=5, this doesn't make it true. Jesus and His book are final and ultimate - and His book removed all excuses and dethroned the pride of men (ironically its spiritual pride to revel in the fact we are just mortal, saved sinners no different than anyone else in the world) - it's the picture of humility to depend on Jesus and do only those things that please Him by virtue of He in us, as He did by virtue of the Father in Him.

Jesus is not someone to be imitated, but someone to be imparted. His life is a pattern of perfect humanity - humanity indwelt by deity. Jesus never strove to do, He was. He was resigned to His Father and as a consequence did only those things that please Him, His Father did the works. A disciple of Jesus is resigned to Jesus, doing only those things please Him, Jesus does the works.

"So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.” (1 John 4:16-18)

I have heard so many sermons on the fear of the judgment seat - but it's a deep and earth shattering revelation to know that when I stand before Him there is nothing that will come up that He doesn't already know, for I am fully known by Him. My entire thought life, and every deed I have done can be broadcast to every person to ever live and none of that matters, because I stand before Jesus, not men, in judgment. The judgment seat is a comforting thought, we will behold our Lord and our Savior, and He in His glorified flesh will stand in all of His glory, and I can physically fall before Him in worship. To the true saint of God, the conscious spiritual presence in which they live will simply become a physical and glorious presence before whom they fall - continuation into eternity rather than a jarring and fearful thing to live under the pressure of. He and His imminent return is our hope.

Jesus is plain when He says, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.” (John 14:23-24)

It's tragic that these doctrines of men essentially take an eraser to most of what Jesus said... It's almost like it's the world system trying to erase His words.

Todd quoted Steve Gregg as saying "One is not saved by the perfection of his/her obedience, but by the determination to obey completely." - this is just as satanic as saying someone is saved by the works of the law. In fact, it essentially changes the grace of the call of Jesus to follow him into a dead work of the law, and enthrones sentimental dedication in the place of sanctified obedience. This is saying we are saved by our good intentions - and is falling into the pit of beginning in the Spirit and being perfected by the flesh.

That entire Steve Gregg quote is one massive contradiction.

Would to God all could see the all sufficiency of Jesus Himself for all things pertaining to life and godliness, He Himself, nothing He gives us.

The idea that people have no control over their actions or have nothing to do with obeying is entirely foreign to scripture.

You calling that quote "satanic” is quite frankly disgusting. Steve Gregg has been a Bible teacher for over 50 years and is still on the radio daily answering questions about faith and the Bible and has never taken a salary for any of it.

You have got to be the most irritating prideful person to have ever posted on this forum. It utterly drips off every word you speak.

Just so you know I'm not alone in my views.

"Paul does not say, nor does the Spirit of God say anywhere, that after we are born again of the Spirit of God, Jesus Christ is put before us as an Example and we make ourselves holy by drawing from Him. Never! Sanctification is Christ formed in us; not the Christ-life, but Christ Himself. In Jesus Christ is the perfection of everything, and the mystery of sanctification is that we may have in Jesus Christ, not the start of holiness, but the holiness of Jesus Christ.” - Oswald Chambers

"The very spirit that ruled Jesus in His life now rules us. How has it come about? Read Romans 8:10. ‘And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.’ John the Baptist said of Jesus””‘He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.’ The Spirit of God who wrought out that marvelous Life in the Incarnation will baptize us into the very same life, not into a life like it, but into His life until the very holiness of Jesus is gifted to us. It is not something we work out in Him, it is in Him, and He manifests it through us while we abide in Him.” - Oswald Chambers

"We are too free from wonder nowadays, too easy with the Word of God; we do not use it with the breathless amazement Paul does. Think what sanctification means””Christ in me; made like Christ; as He is, so are we.” -Oswald Chambers

"With Jesus it is never ‘Do, do,’ but ‘Be, be and I will do through you.’” - Oswald Chambers

From what I've read, willful unbelief and disobedience.

Hebrews 3-4 talks about this, however what I'm confused with is when it says they didn't enter God's rest because of unbelief, why was there a warning to the believers by Paul about an evil heart unbelief in departing from God?

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Hebrews 3:12 NKJV

Starting in chapter 4:

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
Hebrews 4:1 NKJV

And another warning...

Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:11 NKJV

But in the verse preceding that one it says:

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Hebrews 4:10 NKJV

It says that those who have ceased from his works has entered His rest. When is this exactly? I've been comparing Romans 4:5-6 because it seems to fit,

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Romans 4:5”­-”¬6 NKJV

If God's rest is something that is future tense, what are the works that someone has to cease from. It seems to be pointing to salvation since salvation is by grace through faith apart from works. So if entering His rest is salvation, why does Paul say to be diligent to enter that rest if they are already in it?

//Just so you know I'm not alone in my views.//

Do I need to quote all of the OC devotionals where he talks about active obedience?

You can look those up yourself.