The gift of death.

When Adam disobeyed and sinned the WHOLE human race received a gift of death, We all died and where made disobedient sinners not by what we did or did not do but just because of what ONE man did - Adam. WE ALL RECEIVED THIS GIFT AUTOMATICALLY AND WE COULD NOT EVER UNWRAP IT. Wherefore as by one man, sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. For unto the law sin was in the world, but it was not imputed where there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. So sin entered into the world by one man.

The result of that ONE act of the ONE man - Adam, the whole human race had SIN living in them. So now we could only freely express the devil's nature because it was the Devil who was living, working and dwelling within us who did both the willing and preformed the actual doing of his (sin) own pleasure. We all became PARTAKERS of that evil nature without any effort or choice on our part; we all were the children of wrath by nature alone. Not by our deeds but because we were indwelt by SIN continually causing our outward actions. The Devil was our father and we were forced to do his lusts. We were totally and completely free from righteousness. We had no free will to do otherwise.

Let me make this clear, this is totally sinful state was totally absolute and 100% pure sin. How could it not be? It was the devil's spirit who ruled and governed us. In this state righteousness is impossible!!! We were all WALKED according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience.

Now, this sinful condition that we lived under did NOT belong to us. It is NOT ours. When God created us it was not possible for us to be good and it was not possible for us to be bad. We did not have ANYTHING that belonged to us. While we lived in this sinful state - condition, we where dead in sin and filled with corruption. This was NOT by our CHOICE but by what man - Adam did.

We may have thought we were just doing our own thing but that is IMPOSSIBLE. We did not have a thing and had no FREE will to do anything else but to express the sin that LIVED inside of us. We where not the get away driver that ran away from a crime scene. Paul made it very clear that he did things that he truly hated to do but then said it was not him doing it but the sin that lived in him made him do it. Was he responsible for those sinful acts - NO!! That is why he said he was so wretched because he was a slave of sin and could not help it.

We lived in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Even the fruit that looked good was never really good. So you may have avoided certain sins but that does not matter at all because the LAW declares you GUILTY of EVERY possible sin. This tree Never could provide life. That was impossible. We all were dead in sin and filled with corruption as the person over there that is murdering people every hour of every day. There is no distinction. There is no distinction in Adam. Why? Because our own deeds did not determine this sinful condition. The man Adam determined it. It's never assessed by external actions. You can go to church, become a Sunday school teacher, a deacon, elder or even a pastor but none of those things could ever free you from this sinful condition

We all lived in the kingdom of darkness. When God's light was seen we loved darkness rather than light. This was not us loving darkness but the SIN living within us loving that darkness. It really could not do anything different because of nature of sin. We all received the GIFT of death because what Adam did. Why it is a gift? Yes because we did NOTHING to get it. We did not have to accept it. We did not choose it. We did not have to believe it. We did not have to confess it. We did nothing to deserve it. It was automatic. It was by ONE man's disobedience that caused us to be sinners, what Adam did, made us sinners. Romans 5:19.

Now this gift of death contained the Spirit of satan and who ruled and governed us every second of every day and caused to be slaves of sin.

Here is what Paul says. Their throat is an open sepulcher. With their tongues they have used deceit. The poison of ash is under their lips whose mouth is full of mercy and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their way. A way of peace have they not known. This is the works of the flesh in just other words and other descriptions. There is no fear of God before their eyes. We know that whatsoever things the law saith is saith to them that are under the law. So that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may what? Become guilty. Be seen guilty. That means the law was given so sin would abound and be seen as it truly is. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in God's sight. For by the law is the knowledge of sin. The law was not a list of instructions for to us to keep or to follow so we could be perfect. The law COULD NEVER GIVE LIFE!!

Here is a description of that evil spirit. They're all gone out of the way they are together become unprofitable worthless. There's none that do with good. No, not one; their throat is an open sepulcher or grave and with their tongues they have used the seat poison of asked for snake is in under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursings and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood destruction and misery are in their ways. And the way of peace have they not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes. .

As it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."

Look at it. Look how conclusive and comprehensive the state of sin and death really is. There is none righteous, not one. Not one. Why? Because he's seeing them in a state that is defined not with themselves in view, but with the man to whom their soul is joined. This all was the result of the gift of Adam. And he can make a sweeping statement like that because he's seeing a man in whom that state abides and continues forever.

He's not speaking about specific individuals but of the seed of Adam, the man of death and sin, that which governs us from within. He was assessing the Adamic creation. Mankind as a whole and saying there is nothing good there. None are holy. None are righteous, none that seek God. They're all unprofitable, evil, sin. There is no one in that condition that are holy, no one of who seeks God, none righteous. Even in Christ you're not holy independently, you are holy because the holiness of God is in you and by grace you were brought you into all that He is. Righteousness never becomes your possession.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

We where always living in the flesh and never in the spirit. It was like we had a big ugly black dog living inside of us. There was not a war going on inside of us. We could never please God. Because we have received this gift of death we were in the flesh continually and in a in a state of enmity. Our mind, our pursuits, the seeking is always at enmity with God. Remember this is not a choice you've made. The real issue is we had an evil spirit, satan's spirit governing us 24 hours a day just because of the GIFT of death that we ALL received because of what Adam did. The person who is habitually committing sin has the devil as his source, so it is the source that is a problem, not just a choice but the source, because from the beginning, the devil has been sinning.

Edited for clarity

We have no nature of our own. We can not be good - we can not be bad. We never had anything that belonged to us. We never had an independent will of our own. We did not have any desires of our own. When we were sinners - righteousness was IMPOSSIBLE. We were dead in trespasses and sins!!

Sin is a man. Righteousness is a man. Just One, It's him or it's Him. Sin or, righteousness. Death or life. When you see the ONE, it's all simple. Christ is here - not satan. Christ is the One who is here now living inside of you providing LIFE. There's no you in the sight of God to compare anything to. The only comparison is this or this. And actually, this comparison is no longer there because Christ has put the old away. Christ is the one. This is all that is. The spirit of Him that raised Christ from the dead dwells in you, it quickens your mortal body NOW!! Your body is motivated and animated by this LIFE. And you serve in newness of life and not in oldness of letter.

There are only two conditions possible for us to be in. The sinful condition - this is one that we all once lived in as the result of what Adam did. We were made sinners because we had satan living, abiding, governing and walking us. Sin was just completely normal and righteousness was impossible. We were under the LAW of sin and death and could do nothing about it. This sin did not really belong to us. It was satan's sin within us ruling and governing us.

The other condition is righteousness. This is the result of what Christ did. We were made righteous as a result of what Christ did. We were made righteous because we now have Christ living, abiding, governing and walking us. Righteousness is now just completely normal and unrighteousness is impossible. We are now under the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and we can do nothing about it. This righteousness does not really belong to us. It is Christ's righteousness within is. These two conditions are totally absolute. They are no gray areas here. It is impossible to be in partly in one condition and partly in the other. It is simple it all depends on our source.

With Christ as our master now we can only freely express His divine nature because it is Christ who is living, working and dwelling within us who does both the willing and performs the actual doing of His own pleasure. We all became PARTAKERS of that divine nature without any effort or choice on our part, we are now children of God by nature alone. Not by our deeds but because we are indwelt by righteousness continually. God is our Father and we are caused to do His will. We are totally and completely free from the domain of sin and have no free will to do otherwise.

This is in verse 18 of Romans 6. being made free from the bondage and servitude of sin because He calls you a servant of sin in verse 17 being freed from that enslavement you become servants of righteousness meaning you become enslaved to another master but see this master and this master that takes control over you that now owns you as a slave owns the soul provides to the soul all things.

It is in that enslavement in that captivity in that enclosement that all things of God all things of spiritual reality are provided or given or gifted to the soul and they will not be accessible they are not realized they are not yours separate from this enslavement to this greater master. The enslavement about sin so many people think that that enslavement is synonymous with the inability to stop doing bad things bad deeds bad activities and so we think that that's the enslavement. We think we see the evidence of that by things you do - listen that is not the evidence of enslavement to sin that is not the evidence of your enslavement the actual enslavement of the soul is an inward matter because you are automatically listen to that word automatically in servitude to the life and the seed of which you were born.

The condition that we live in is determined by the man (the man of sin or the man of righteousness) who resides in the soul by the seed who is in you. You don't determine this, You have no power to determine the state of being that your soul has. That is determined by the seed that's in you by the seed of which you are born that's determined there.

Look at how this is worded in the Weymouth translation. Col. 1:13; "It is God who has delivered us out of the dominion of darkness, and has transferred us into the Kingdom of His dearly-loved Son". He did rescue us out of the authority or the master lordship dominion of the kingdom of the darkness and did translate us into the kingdom and reign of light and life. That's a kingdom but it's reign, It is a place where He has full sovereign reign which is the reign of the Son of His loves.

I love the words that are used here because what you first face one of the things you face is that when you are translated by this work into this reign or dominion or sovereign kingship of the Son of His love you first realize you are not brought into this place to be the object of His love you are brought into the one who is the object and the substance of Hs love and you stand before Him in love. That is not God looking assessing you looking at you determining whether or not He should love you or not or whether or not He should love you or you're worthy of His love. The answer is no.

The seed that's in you that determines His perspective toward your soul is His love. He is the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the holy Spirit. He is the love of God that nothing can separate us from just because he's there see this is part of the liberty of this enslavement that I'm talking about because this is the love of God that nothing can separate us from just because he's there this relationship this standing with God that is unbreakable perfect and unoffendable do you hear that unoffendable is not capable of being your condition outside of the confines of this enslavement.

So what is the real difference between sinner and Saint? It all depends on who your Master is. Who is your Father? What law are you under: Who is walking and governing you? You can not govern yourself - impossible. The life of Christ which operates in us - as us knows nothing of alternatives. There is no good and evil. The LIFE of CHRIST disconnected us from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We have no part of that tree. The spirit of error is replaced with the spirit of truth- LIFE, thereafter there is no choice. In our immaturity and dual vision, we have the illusion of choice, but really there is none.

The difference is not the captivity, but the one who is doing the keeping. Either we are kept by satan or kept by Christ. We are only made subject to one or the other. Were are either free from righteousness or free from sin. There is no other choice available. The soul has never existed as an independent entity, but it's always enjoyed a full incarceration within a particular sphere of being, death or life. The soul has never been identified or known of God without any reference or association with the man. The soul is not destroyed at new birth. Unfortunately, I think when we say not I but Christ, we like that not I part and we just act as if there's nothing on this side of the cross and we say we don't live here. Well, that's true, but my soul, the soul is still a partaker and a participant of this fullness that Christ is.

At one point we where married and in union to death himself, sin himself. Now we are freed from that state by being married to another that it may bear fruit or fruit may be the result of such a union. So when we say in Christ it is not I, we can't make that the same as saying the soul doesn't reside in the realm that is called Christ. We must understand that it is about the context in which God now relates to my soul. We say not I but Christ. Previously in Adam, God related to my soul, your soul, as dead and in a state of separation from Him because of the man to whom my soul was joined and the man to whom my soul at that time was joined.

Adam enjoyed that separation and that death as his condition. Now in Christ, my soul is related to or is known of God as having His seed, His beloved Son as its one and its only life and as its one and only righteousness exists because that beloved Son now resides within my soul and is made unto the soul, the fullness of Himself, that includes His own relationship with His father, it is the spirit of adoption, the spirit of the Son crying out Abba father, that is happening in your soul whether you comprehend it or not, that is the relationship that keeps you.

Edited for clarity

double post

I'm ok with what you have written but I'm not sure death is a "gift" in the normal biblcal use of the word. It seems more like an inevitable penalty that could not be refused. Gifts can either be accepted or refused. Not so lowith death.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honour him. John 12:24-26

The gift of death.

For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Vern presents a twisted Gospel, some kind of New Age philosophy.
I have to reject it completely.

Markus

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. Rom 6:5

Markus, you should read the whole of Romans 6.

No death, - no resurrection.

The gift of death also means, the gift of eternal life, but it goes far deeper than just eternal life.

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

I believe that Vern is a Friend - and he is presenting the deeper work of the cross.

Hi Colin,

The "gift of death”, in the original post by Vern, is from Adam. It is not the identification with Christ in His death on the cross.

When Adam disobeyed and sinned the WHOLE human race received a gift of death,

Hi Vern,

You wrote:

We were made sinners because we had satan living, abiding, governing and walking us………This sin did not really belong to us. It was satan's sin within us ruling and governing us.

Was Satan living in Adam when he sinned? Or did he sin by his own soul?

Ezek. 18:20 -- The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

It is the soul that sins and die.

Isn’t there a "self” within us that we must deny to follow Christ? Doesn’t this "self” has its own will? After all Jesus prayed, ” yet not my will, but yours be done.” And He said that "the ruler of the world………has nothing in Me.”

Note:
This is a serious question. Not just to challenge what you wrote. Hope you will reply.

Blessings

You are my dear sister in the Lord and He is extremely pleased with you and treasures you as a Precious jewel.

I used to correspond with you and the last time I emailed you I did not get a response. I wish there were a way I could talk to you.

You are correct that Adam did not have a sin nature nor was Satan living in Adam when he sinned. He sinned and disobeyed by his own choice.

Adam did die spiritually that day and we were all MADE sinners by his disobedience.

Rom 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please reread my post again for it does give the answer to your question.

Now let me ask you some questions

Did you not live in the kingdom of darkness before God translated you into KINGDOM of HIS dear Son that was filled with light and love?

Were you the slave of sin but now the slave of God and are now HIS child?

Where you not once a child of wrath gratifying the cravings of your flesh and following its desires and thoughts and were by nature deserving of wrath?

Does not the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead continuously dwell, abide and give life to your mortal body?

Did you not once live in the flesh but now live in the Spirit?

Did not the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus make you free from the law of sin and death?

Are you not crucified with Christ and it is Christ who now lives in you. Is not this the ONLY life which you now live in the flesh? Is it not HIS faith and HIS righteousness within you this very second?

Are you not rooted and grounded in HIS LOVE which is in you?

Well that is enough for now.

Your bother Vern

Brother Vern,

We had a good conversation. I guess we said all that we wanted to say and the conversation naturally concluded.

I agree with you in many things. But not totally in everything.

What I do not agree with in your post is specifically this:

We were made sinners because we had satan living, abiding, governing and walking us………This sin did not really belong to us. It was satan's sin within us ruling and governing us.

I do not agree that Satan lives in sinners. Sinners are ruled by Satan but Satan does not live in them.

Except in the case of demonic possession, Satan does not live IN people. He is the ruler of the world and rules people externally. When Adam fell, he fell out of God and out of God’s Kingdom of Light. He fell into himself ("self”) and into the world and became ruled by Satan who is the ruler of the world. This is the kingdom of darkness.

Adam fell because he wanted to become like God. That was Satan’s sin that became Adam’s sin and the inherited sin of all his descendants.

Isa. 14:14-15 ”“
‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I WILL MAKE MYSELF LIKE THE MOST HIGH.’
"Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol,
To the recesses of the pit.”

Gen. 3:4-5 ”“
The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, AND YOU WILL BE LIKE GOD, knowing good and evil.”

Gen. 3:22-24 ”“
Then the Lord God said, "BEHOLD, THE MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever””” therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Self-exaltation is the pride and the evil that is the greatest enemy of God. It is by self-exaltation that God is dethroned and "self” enthroned. "Self” then takes the place of God in all things: self-glory, self-wisdom, self-effort, self-ambition, self-righteousness, etc. But the self-life is the evil life that God detests. It is the life of utter futility and lack. It is the life that falls short of the glory of God. It is not the life that God created us for.

Jer. 2:13 ”“
"For My people have committed two evils:
They have forsaken Me,
The fountain of living waters,
To hew for themselves cisterns,
Broken cisterns
That can hold no water.

Eccl. 1:2 ”“
"Absolute futility,” says the Teacher.
"Absolute futility. Everything is futile.”

God is now calling us away from "self” so that we may know the life of glory and abundance and rest and peace and joy in God. God is now calling us into the true purpose of our creation.

John 10:10 ”“
I came that they may have and enjoy life, and have it in abundance [to the full, till it overflows].

Ps. 36:7-9 ”“
How precious is Your lovingkindness, O God!
And the children of men take refuge in the shadow of Your wings.
They drink their fill of the abundance of Your house;
And You give them to drink of the river of Your delights.
For with You is the fountain of life;
In Your light we see light.

Luke 9:23 ”“
And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Sinners are indwelt by "self”, powered by "flesh”, lovers of "self”, lovers of the world and ruled by Satan who is ruler of the world. This is the place of darkness and anger and death.

The righteous are indwelt by Christ by the Holy Spirit, powered by Christ by the Holy Spirit, lovers of God, ruled by Christ by the Holy Spirit in the Kingdom of God. This is the place of Light and Love and Life.

Ps. 115:1 ”“
Not to us, O Lord, not to us,
But to Your name give glory
Because of Your lovingkindness, because of Your truth.

So much contrary Scripture to the quote. Amazing.

Robert
Can you be a bit more specific ?
Who is quoting what contrary to Scripture.

Just trying to clarify and avoid misunderstandings
Thanks

Markus

I would say that CofG's post is against mine.

This is a discussion forum, not a teaching pulpit.

Anyone who does not agree with me is free to disagree.