Hi everyone, I would love to hear your thoughts on this topic. To avoid putting everyone in a box, I am not giving any premises.
How do you reconcile the idea of biblical self-loving and biblical self-abandonment?
My hope is to have a better understanding of who God is, and to effectively convey Him to His people and His creations.
God bless.
Not loving yourself even though God created you and always looking within can cause you to end up submerged in a sea of subjectivity. Abandoning yourself to God remains difficult because if you could just "fix" yourself He would be more inclined to work with you. The sin of subjectivity hinders.
The biblical idea is that you don't truly love yourself until you've rejected possession of yourself and given yourself to God, offering yourself as a living sacrifice,
and understanding who owns you and who bought you and given yourself to him this is evidence that you really do love yourself
In the same way when you love others you want them to be given over to God and serving God and pleasing God and that's what makes us happy and joyful is the thought of other people giving themselves over to God through their life and in praise and worship.
The carnal man or natural man never truly loves himself even though they boast about how important it is.
Being proud of yourself and esteeming yourself and treating yourself better than other people, lavishing carnal delights upon your self and tantalizing your fleshly nature is actually the opposite of loving yourself and will do nothing but create character flaws and vices and play into Satan's agenda.
I believe the only Safe way to experience loving yourself is when you become immersed in the love of God and experience how much God loves you Himself.
Understanding how much God loves us through his word and through experiencing his spirit being poured out upon us, gives us reason to not treat ourselves badly but to want the best for us and others also.
The spirit of prayer and supplication teaches us how much God loves others in the same way.
Both these expressions of of God's love for us are indescribable and life-changing. ðŸ™âœï¸
Both these elder brothers in the faith answered your question. Both tried and true, different giftings assured! Praying for you and your brother Doc, though I didn't even need to tell you that! You already knew. To add to their already answered question. We are to die to self! However only God can make this happen. However, if you are twice born there is a lot that is going to transpire within your life to decompose you and release Christ within you. Only the broken bread can be distributed! Only the broken perfume bottle fills the room. Only A person controlled by the Holy Spirit brings forth Christ life! Unless a seed goes into the ground and dies, it's not ready to be given new life yet. Who creates the seed, who puts it into the ground? Who causes it to die to itself? Who causes it to then grow? Yeap it is a work of God, so have patience. Like I tell the younger brethren, you cannot yell at a seed and tell it to hurry up and, die and then grow:) It is all in God's timing. Hope I added something to both these older brothers in the faith's thoughts, and experiences.
Amen Billy, broken perfume bottles, love that!
17 Because there is one loaf, we who are many are one body;
Hi Jimzzz,
You might find this Youtube video useful, which discusses what the "self" is and whether there is a godly form of "self-love":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEKPb7o5syg
Definitely something for you to think about.
Thank you so much for your respond docs.
I find it a little challenging to understand your point. I appreciate if you don’t mind to clarify them a little bit more.
Thank you so much for your respond brothagary.
I love your last four sentences. Ultimately, we grow to love and appreciate ourself through God’s love for us by the Scriptures and experiencing Him.
"And he was saying to them all, ‘If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself…’” (Luke 9:23, NASB).
Jesus said we must first do something about our self in order to follow Him: deny or disown it.
Let’s take a closer look at the meaning of the word most Bible translations use in this Scripture: deny. I don’t know about you, but self-denial brings up an unwelcome feeling of deprivation, like depriving myself of something delicious or ignoring my heartfelt longings. One dictionary definition for deny is "to restrain oneself from gratification of desires.” By applying this understanding of the word to this first invitation, one might conclude that to find the treasure Jesus has for us is a life of saying "no, no, no” to everything we want. In order to follow Jesus, we need to withhold pleasure and suppress our passions. It’s either me or Jesus, and there is no in-between. If I want something, it must not be from God.
This is a common and pervasive interpretation of this passage. For instance, one popular Christian writer said it this way: "Your biggest problem is you. To follow Christ means you need to learn how to say no to you … deny your wants, desires, and will in exchange for following the wants, desires, and will of the One you are following.” Is this what Jesus really meant? Does this sound like the abundant life He promised when He came "that they may have life, and have it to the full?” (John 10:10). How can deprivation lead to fullness of life? While there is a place for saying no to one’s self, the meaning of this word goes beyond simply dismissing our desires and replacing them with God’s, as if these are in complete contrast to each other; as if we are all wrong and must be denied.
A closer look at the Greek word used here gives us more details about this first invitation. The base of the word is arneomai, which means "to refuse a person, not to know or recognize him, to reject him, or renounce a relationship.” Simply stated, it signifies the denial of a relationship with someone.
This word is also used when Peter denied Jesus prior to His death. In Matthew 26:34, Jesus predicted that Peter would disown Him three times that night. As Peter was recognized as someone who had been with Jesus, he renounced or denied his association with Him, saying, "I don’t know him.” Peter acted as if he had no relationship with Jesus.
Here’s the crucial distinction: This invitation is less about depriving the self and more about disowning, or renouncing a relationship with the part of our self that is not what God created us to be.
A similar dismissal of relationship is found in a more disturbing passage in Matthew 7:21-23:
Jesus said: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers.’”
How could He then say to any of us, especially if we’ve wanted to follow Him, "I never knew you?”
Maybe it’s because God doesn’t know what He didn’t create! What is it that He didn’t create? The self or persona that we have fabricated in our own image. It’s the seed coat we cling to and rely on for our identity. It’s our way of being our own god, which was Adam and Eve’s first temptation. It’s the self that tries to meet our own needs by our own striving. It’s the persona we want others to see to ensure we receive love, find worth, stay safe, and maintain control.
From "Self to Lose - Self to Find" by Marilyn Vancil
Thank you so much for respond billy.
Ah, the parables. Love the mysteries of life which we shall understand when the time comes, or I would say, when the Spirit comes. I guess we let the Holy Spirit help us to understand them, wouldn’t we?
I appreciate your thoughts.
Thank you so much for the link yuehan.
I love how he clarified the challenge and the hope for the person who asked the question.
Thank you so much for the respond truewitness.
Very insightful.
Thought I would just add a quick thought.
The reoccurring theme seems to be "denying what I want" as denying self. I think this is misguided.
When someone is born again, they become new. I think the thing being missed is that when we are born again our desires and wants become aligned with Jesus. So we can say, I am a Christian and I do as I please, because in sanctification God works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Self denial is deeper than "saying no". It is putting off the old man completely in death. Our identification by faith with the death and resurrection of Jesus is the finished work that puts off the old self. We are dead, hid with Christ in God.
Self denial is death. The old self is denied and the second clause of the call can never be neglected, taking up our cross - upon which the old self is crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that lives, but Jesus living in me.
Jesus crucifixion is also ours; His resurrection is also ours; His ascension is also ours. Jesus is our substitute completely before the Father so that the old man can be truly crucified. We reckon this so in faith and, walking in the spirit, we live it out practically. When we are joined with the Lord, just like in physical marriage where two become one flesh, our spirit and the Holy Spirit are joined together in union - he that is joined to the Lord is one spirit.
So I guess my point is that self denial is, in Jesus estimation, a denial of self that leads to crucifixion and death - at which point there is no more self to deny and our wills and desires are bound up in the will of God in newness of resurrection life.
The Holy Spirit makes this real in the believer as he walks sensitive to, and in obedience to His leadings. The "saying no" to self is only an issue if a person again walks in the flesh, and the "self" they assume they are denying is actually just the desires of the flesh reanimated by law and temptation. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, and just about every situation we find ourselves in Jesus has had a counterpart to in His life, and will help us stand up under them. He is a faithful friend, high priest, and redeemer.
To deny self is to crucify it, so it can be a different "I" that lives, "Christ in you, the hope of glory". It's a mystery that was hid for ages and generations until Paul was given the grace to articulate it. Before Jesus, the fathers of our faith (Moses, Enoch, Abraham, Jacob, David, etc.) had to learn the ways of the Spirit through many hard knocks and deep lessons - our way has been completely sign posted by Paul. Praise God.
Anyway, to reduce denying self to "saying no to what I want" is to completely remove the new birth, regeneration, sanctification, the Holy Spirit, Jesus and honestly, the entirety of the redemption found in Jesus.
To be a new creation in Jesus is to be brought into the first fruits of the entirety of new creation - the kingdom of God within us now, and soon to be fully realized in the earth when Jesus returns. It is putting off everything that has to do with the old, fallen creation, and putting on the new man, created in Jesus in righteousness and true holiness. This means not only things pertaining to our egocentric views that revolve around our little sphere of existence, but everything in the fallen world and it's system.
The actual, and most pervasive error in these last days is the ignorance of new birth and the experience of encountering Jesus both as He comes to us in revelation and reveals Himself within. Paul experienced Jesus both outwardly on the road in His conversion, and inwardly as Jesus revealed and formed Himself within by the Holy Spirit. Sadly, almost no one in these last days has had either experience with Jesus Himself, and settle for philosophy and soulish explanation, thinking this is the same as possessing Jesus and His life within, ie. Salvation. This is why so much of the soul (mind - mental gymnastics) is thought be spiritual revelation (inward, intuitive knowing and walking). God is Spirit, and those that worship Him must do so in Spirit and in truth. Definitions and explanations cannot teach this the truth of denying self and taking up our cross, only spiritual experience can do this, and when we are strengthened in our inner man, our spirit, the soul (ie. Mind) can be brought into line with our spirits and we can only then articulate what this truth actually means. Inner to the outer, not vice versa.
But that's just my feeble two cents, and my view has always been heralded as to lofty for anyone to actually attain (and it is, which is the point - only Christ in you can attain it) - whether or not it's in the Bible. Jesus commanded spiritual perfection, and for us to do any less is to fall short of His glory.
This is another portion of truth where I feel sometimes like my Bible must be different than most peoples...
I tried to think about all the passages that speak to what part of self or nature of self that is crucified and came up with this list from various Scriptures. There are probably more but these were helpful to me to consider this list. If we can love self after crucifying all this, I guess it would be something to talk about. I don’t think "abandonment” would be the right word given the idea of crucifixion.
Self promotion
Self elevation
Self indulgence
Self righteousness
Self glory
Self first
Self focus
Self dependence and independence
Self provision
Self strength
Self concern
Self valuing
Self preservation
Self wisdom
Self ambition
Self protection
Self plans and agendas
Self exaltation
Self condemnation
Self deception
Self as god.
"Self promotion
Self elevation
Self indulgence
Self righteousness
Self glory
Self first
Self focus
Self dependence and independence
Self provision
Self strength
Self concern
Self valuing
Self preservation
Self wisdom
Self ambition
Self protection
Self plans and agendas
Self exaltation
Self condemnation
Self deception
Self as god."
Powerful list. Once this is all on the cross there is only one thing left - Jesus Himself.
For me to live is Christ.
Amen.
The false self is constantly offended
The true self (in Christ) is never offended
-Daniel
ESchaible, that quick thought was a breath of fresh air. Thank you for posting it and a hearty Amen concerning it too!
"to whom God willed to make known what the wealth of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles is, the mystery that is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Colossians 1:27
I am overwhelmed by the meditation that God has given
me Jesus and His Life in exchange for my Self and mine.
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