The attributes of living the sanctified life.

It is depressing, is it not brethren, how those here are not of one accord as in Acts 1:14:

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren."

One accord meaning of one mind. Our stark differences regarding sanctification shows this, surely THE most important thing for us to understand - how are we acceptable to God if we don't go on to perfection or entire sanctification?

" Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God" Heb 6:6.

I say that it was due to the 'breathing on of the Holy Spirit' by Jesus that we were made one with our fellow believers, so what is going wrong here? It seems obvious to me that if we have had the scriptural 'breathing on' in this case for the uniting of the brethren we have the unity which becomes entire sanctification at baptism.

So I thought it might be useful for us to describe in our own experience, what the attributes of living the sanctified life apart from the fruit mentioned, look like for a practical demonstration, not to show off, as it is all through grace, but in the hopes of finding more unity and helping those who have not progressed this far, to yearn more for it.

It would also help I feel if those who claim they live it would say what difficulties they experienced beforehand. I will start with:

Matthew 22:37 KJV: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

Ask yourself do I? If there is any pause at all, then look into it deeper. This was a problem I had pre ES baptism of the Spirit. I feared God and was grateful to Him, respecting Him but love? I had to ponder on that and actually did not want to but when I did, He was not my all and everything whom I would die for in a flash. But now, after the baptism that has united me fully with Christ, there is no hesitation. He is all I live for.

Brenda.

I agree that it is perplexing to find such divergence regarding such a critical point to salvation. Aren’t you a little concerned for the millions of Christians that don’t have access to all these writers and testimonies of a second experience ? I’m not saying that in a derogatory way. What concerns me is that the path to this seems dependent on perspectives and testimonies that the huge majority of Christians haven’t heard of. How do they find it if indeed that is the right understanding and path ? I know there is some Scripture to point to but most proofs seem to be from Church history and testimonies. Am I seeing that right?
The Christians that are outside all that source material are supposed to do what ? Practically for their life?

Robert

I don't see it that way. For me, it is just a matter of not grieving the Holy Spirit, which prevents Him from bringing one to the state for which God created us. It is only when we don't do this that we have to depend on history and testimonies which unfortunately are hardly to be found these dark days.

George Fox taught this as it was through this means that he reached that stage, revealed to him by God alone when no-one in the area of England he wandered seeking the answer could help.

We read it our Bibles in 1John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God."

So even if we do not have a Bible, we have the witness of the Holy Spirit who will lead us unto righteousness if our hearts remain tender and receptive. However that is hard today with so much against it. Suffering though is a shortcut to it. In my life, everything was stripped away so that I had nothing left but Him thanks God.

There is an unfortunate teaching in Protestantism that prevents it and it is sola scriptura which leaves us unskilled in hearing God ourselves.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 King James Version 17 Pray without ceasing.

This one always puzzled me. Until I was entirely sanctified as a further work of grace. Then I found myself constantly before His throne and my mind was filled with Him and the 'instruction' from Paul became a living reality.

Brenda are you claiming that you no longer sin? Is that what you mean by "entire sanctification?”

@brother Todd, the understanding I came to regarding the ES subject is that you gets out of the sinning state. But you remaining fully able to sin and can do so any time. In sister brendaM's word 'necessity' if you can grasp that. Its just unfortunate that there remains differences regarding the time at which it comes, whether it is once-off or life-long. May God intervene in mercy for understanding.

@brother Roberts: I did note to sister brendaM as well previously, that if the supporting & understanding of ES doctrine comes largely from sources not accessible to all, how then shall they (those without) too come where we belive these sources have brought us to. So yes it will be nice to be able to preach this doctrine sufficiently without heavily relying on extra-biblical writtings (though very much appreciated) we do not all have access you.

I will start this off by reminding brethren that:

"...Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth." 1 Cor. 8:1

I wonder if there is hope for anything good that may come with this route because:

Firstly, it would seem to me that both our dear brethren (sister Brenda and brother Evan) who seem to be prominent advocates of ES (I do not mean this in a bad way at all - but only in a factual sense) do not agree with the timing at which ES comes. (Someone also said Ravenhill belived ES came at bapstism as well by the way).

So, is it not fair to seek to find out why they (brother E and sister B) thus differ in their view on ES timing before we move any further into the bolts and nuts of ES? I say this because on another thread, brother Evan said to sister Brenada, I am glad to see in the forums - so as to imply she was amongst those whose Christian-person he esteemed (and I already knew it was so with sister Brenda too).

Well one relevant reason for the timing is that, according to sister Brenda, if I have been HS baptised, then I am ESd. On the other hand, brother Evan needs to look for something different to tell if one is ESd as he believes it is not tied up to HS baptism.

One interesting aspect is that, I do not rember Paul asking any: Have you been sactified wholly since you believed? But I remember him asking: Have you received the Holy Spirit since you belived? Do we ask men this?

I told sister Brenda during a discussion that I had avoided exploring these terms (justification, sactification, etc) in the name of thelogical study because it seemed men I already esteemed seem to understand each slighly different. But bless God who will not withhold his blessing because you have no accurate theological discription of it - as long as you meet the requirements.

1 Thess. 5:23

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The above seems to me more like a prayer/wish (for an operation that only God can perform) than a commandment. I then understand that as we continue to seek God (who works in us to will and to do of his good pleasures) by following all other explicit commandments or instructions, we doubtless must eventually get sanctified wholly by him if we were/are not.

But again, it seems to me that we tend to eventually get these things differently for some reasons.

I went to look at the Moravian Revival lately because one who wrote of it said essentially, they agreed to shelve aspects they disagreed on and focus on those they agreed on - and on that note jointly sought God to reign over them and God did. So while there are explicit heresies that needs to be fled from altogether, it seems there are also minor matters, the dwelling on disagreements over which may only indicate a cold spiritual climate (the answer to which must be revival from those willing to pay the price - in prayer and otherwise).

Dear brothers

I did not come to my understanding from reading unavailable (to most) writings. It came after a very long period, from when I first came to Christ, spent three weeks in great joy, then slowly went into a sort of backsliding state possible due to having no evangelical church.

Then after I moved, I found a Reformed church and learned Calvinism but during this period had a great struggle with my faith. I just did not seem to be the sort of Christian I was reading about in my Bible and the Christians around me, who were leading comfortable, privileged middle class lives, did not seem to have the same problems as me, who had never been able to work due to sickness and coming from a poor background.

It was the inward sins I had trouble with, including a lack of joy, like lack of trust and peace, anxiety, discouragement and sometimes anger. Then someone gave me a monthly bible study by Oswald Chambers and I marvelled at these writings and could never imagine being at that spiritual level which I longed for. I began to pray for that.

So time went on and I met a woman who was exactly how I wanted to be and she could even hear God speak to her whilst she was talking to you and would stop and listen then come out with some mind-blowing message from Him. She gave me Watchman Nee Normal Christian Life and with that I entered into the next phase which I now call Illumination as that the truth was revealed to me that it was not in our strength that God works in us and we must allow Him to be in charge and Lord of our lives.

I am certain that had these two people not been available though, that God could have got the message to me as I was seeking with great intensity.

It was a long time after that I began to read revival writings and 48 years after conversion that I began to read the ECF's. It has mostly been direct communication with God especially after the first event where I was for three days in a heavenly place where God taught me from scripture all about the new state I was in both from the New and Old Testament. It is through the whole Bible. I was barely conscious of anything else for that three days and even had to ask Him to stop pouring His love out on me as my poor heart could hardly bare it. More later.

I was now delivered from the previous problems and spent my whole time in worship but knew before too long that I would sometimes slip up without meaning to especially my besetting sin, anger which had come from my abusive childhood I believe and not having my needs for love and protection met.

There was no help now in various writings as they were from the Keswick stable, who only believed in the two step stage of sanctification - justification and sanctification as a second blessing, Nee, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Andrew Murray etc until I came across an old book from a charity shop which really stopped me in my tracks. It was The Royal Invitation by Havergal Francis Ridley a day to day devotional. She said that if there is sin in your life then you are not in Christ and although I was able to stop sinning with most things as my only interest was in Christ, I felt there was something else needed.

This book delivered me completely from the realm of the flesh so that there was no sin AT ALL in me in that I was no longer slipping into my own flesh to serve God. There was nothing that came into my mind that was not in God's will. I had the pure heart that scripture speaks of. It stayed with me for about 18 months and then it went, in that I was back in the previous state of Illumination knowing the truth but not quite being there.

From then on, after times of desperation when the Lord would return the blessing I eventually found the answer in the ECF's writings about Theosis and that it was normal. It was a time of training and would lead to a steady state. This brought me great joy and peace.

It is not surprising that there are differences as a lot of people only reach the Illumination stage and know the basic truth of it and even amongst holiness teachers. We are all at different stages and have different personalities but as long as they know that we cannot serve in the flesh, even pious flesh which loves the Lord, they are on the right track and will be on my 'page'. More later.

It is no wonder that there is so much confusion and disagreement about this doctrine of holiness. Guess who does not like it! Our enemy will cause discord and strife around the subject because he hates sinless Christians as they no longer are able to be deceived by him. His greatest deception is that there is no sinlessness in this life and we have to wait for heaven.

Scripture says that death is our enemy and not our friend and there is a verse in the OT that says something like; as a tree falleth so it must lie. Gradual sanctification as understood is also a lie although there is a process before and after, but there must come the delivery from sin.

The Bible is filled throughout with the principle, first in the washing of everything that goes into the temple, that is the symbol of our hearts. It was a setting aside but more than that. Everything had to be set aside for a special use then cleansed.

It is our sin though that makes us spiritually sluggish but God promises us that He will give the will if we ask Him. Time is short brethren, He is returning before too long and things will get so bad that he faith of many will be tried and they will fall away. I have suffered greatly in enemy attack because of what I say but my love for the brethren keeps me continuing to say it. May God open minds and hearts Amen.

Thanks Todd for your question.

My last remark for now is, that you must learn to listen to the Holy Spirit speak deep inside your souls.

Early on, we will tend to stifle the things we do not want to hear, and the convictions of sins, so we must learn how to get back to that and OBEYING every little thing even if it sounds stupid.

You must be guided by Him foremost and not others or books. I had no-one who could teach me everything so the Lord had to do it mainly by books. Trust Him and obey Him.

I hope I am not misunderstanding anything. But I will still consider it as pride for you two dear brethren to upbraid your audience for not seeing ES as you do when you two differ on your view of ES timing.

I can understand your frustration. I didn't even know where Evan differs exactly so hope he comes on to make it clear.

Also, regarding knowledge, God did not intend for each one of us to 'know it all' but to be dependent on each other to get the full picture. He reveals certain things to each one of us by that rule and it was how the early church functioned. At the early councils, the leaders (bishops) would gather, not for consensus but to stay together till all were of one accord especially on a matter of heresy. They waited on God to speak to others.

Things began to fall part though when less and less of the bishops were in ES and therefore not in direct communion with God so that they could discern His voice after waiting on Him.

I myself on becoming a new Christian had a fascination with all things dealing with sanctification and how to obtain it. I remember watching Billy Graham crusades and him telling the audience that Christ can give you power over sin. I thought how marvelous that would be. I too found Watchman Nee's book The Normal Christian Life and read that several times but looking back I realize that having intellectual understanding of a doctrine does not necessarily cause one to 'be in the good of it'. I remember particularly reading an analogy pertaining to one being 'dead to sin'. It was stated that just as a corpse cannot respond or react to a pin being jabbed into its flesh, so we as Christians who are reckoning ourselves dead to sin likewise will not feel or in any way be swayed by sinful temptation. In fact, there will be no temptation any longer. I was elated and went about reckoning and reckoning in earnest. I want to stop here and say that Romans 6 and 8 do lay out a path of leaving the old life behind and entering into spiritual life from above. Briefly, our part is to:

KNOWING THIS, we are dead to sin because of our having died WITH CHRIST.
RECKON this true of yourself.
YIELD yourself to God
DO NOT PRESENT yourselves as slaves any longer to sin
PRESENT YOURSELVES unto God as slaves of righteousness, a living sacrifice.
THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT of life in Christ Jesus sets and keeps us free from sin.
THOSE LED BY THE SPIRIT are the sons and daughters of God.

I now have a better understanding of that phrase, 'dead to sin'. It does not mean that we cannot be tempted just as a corpse cannot feel a needle jab. Instead, think about what death is. Death is when someone's spirit leaves their body and so now the spirit has no more relationship with the body. In the same way, we being dead to sin no longer are tied to sin as a life principle. Of course, we can use our free will and pursue that old life if we want to. We still have flesh that enjoys living independently of God and enjoys particular sinful pleasures.

And I would also like to emphasize that this process of sanctification is not something that is accomplished in one fell swoop and then it's done. Old holiness teaching that you need to attend a 'tarry meeting' hoping to receive a second blessing so that you would become sinless from then on was and is a grave error. So many dear saints being led down this road of deception could not understand why they never received this 'second blessing' even though they were sincere and earnest in their search. They fell away from the faith feeling rejected and dejected. And this teaching also created a caste system within the church. There were those who had received 'entire sanctification' and those who had not. Now imagine what is was like being in church where one group were the blessed ones and the other group were left out and struggling. And the testimonies of the ES crowd about how they don't sin any more but then if you were to point out any failures in them they would claim that it was 'mistakes' and not sin. They can claim it was done without intention or even knowledge and thereby keep their sinless image intact.

The best book that exposes the problems with old holiness teaching (second blessing, entire sanctification) is "Holiness, the False and the True" by Henry Ironside. You can read it from here:

https://archive.org/details/holinessfalsetru00iron/page/n3/mode/2up

-Daniel

Daniel

Pleased to hear from you and your own walk. I agree that the doctrine has been sorely misused and has caused grief to many from the holiness people.

Many who claimed sinlessness were not actually sinless and it has caused the problems you outline but just because something is misused does not mean it is untrue and I know of the book you quoted.

But yes it does happen in a twinkling of the eye as did the baptism of the Spirit on those at Pentecost. The devil is very much at work to discredit it.

Paul himself placed believers in two categories: the carnal believers and the saints.

The way to the blessing was to just believe that it was obtained on the cross and 'step' into it but it is not an intellectual exercise true. You need the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I am reading through the book Daniel has posted. It is a long time since I read it and it very well confirms what I have learned since then, about Keswick but it is very sad indeed the damage it had caused.

There is sanctification and then there is entire sanctification and many stop a the first stage. I was saved from a lot of grief as no-one I knew was teaching this when I got into it so the Holy Spirit did the leading.

Any questions on what the book claims I will gladly try to answer.

Daniel
Thank you for your post
All we can do is to try and warn people and point them back to the Gospel and the simplicity that is in Christ.
It is truly "Amazing Grace..."

Markus

Did not read in full but also thought brother Daniel was making good points.

I would like to change something I said, for which I believe the Lord has given me insight today.

When Jesus appeared to the disciples when He arose, He breathed the Holy Spirit on them and I believe now that was the breathe of life so Born Again by the Spirit and not at Pentecost.

I love it when the Lord gives insight.