A ? Regarding Motives for Entire Sanctification

Jason

First off, l believe l have attained ES, through grace alone. My motives have always been to please God in gratitude for the encounter l first had with Him that gave me a reason to live.

// l believe l have attained ES, through grace alone.//

But what exactly does this mean? You never plainly answered my question- ie does it mean you believe you no longer sin?

If you would answer that question plainly without a lot of gobbledygook it would be helpful.

Todd l thought l had. As far as l know l do not sin but l have lost the blessing before without realising it.

Jason and Brenda: If I assume the role of a third party observer to this conversation, some interesting observations come to mind. Jason, the question you ask is an important one. Motive for a belief or a doctrine is important. Sometimes asking, "What is my real motive here?" unmasks something at work in me other than the pure word of God.

So here is what I am noticing. PLEASE tell me if I am incorrect in what I am thinking about each of your perspectives.

Brenda: Are you coming at this from the perspective that God sanctifies you, therefore it is a complete or entire work? In other words, Jesus would never sanctify us partially. He would do it entirely or fully. There is scripture with that basic wording. I would guess that you do not equate entire sanctification with a moment when you reach sinless perfection and will never again do anything sinful.

Jason: Are you coming at this from the perspective that a believer, although sanctified, is still in a process of being transformed by God more and more into His image as He continues the good work that He has begun in us? You would say that we still occasionally stumble and commit a sinful act, but that God is bringing us more and more into a place of victory over those things?

Your answers to these (Please correct me if I have missed it. I am not trying to put words in your mouth. It is just what seemed to come off the page at me when I read your comments.) probably help me understand what you actually believe.

You see, I was taught "a" doctrine of entire sanctification growing up. The version I was taught said that "standing grace" was the power to live a sinless life. It said that a person should, after praying through to this second definite work of grace, live a life in which they did not sin anymore. It was tied to sinless perfection. This doctrine, as it was taught, really had a very negative effect on my walk with God and my ability to allow Him to change me and cause me to grow in Him. I have seen a sinless perfection teaching have a debilitating effect on many other people as well.

So I guess I have a motive for not ascribing to entire sanctification when it is tied to sinless perfection. It kept me from growth in the Lord for a number of years. (age 14 to age 18) I also do not see it in scripture. But I guess this is why I actually have an already sanctified and yet being sanctified perspective. Sanctification happened, and then its working out continues to happen.

I guess that is my motive if you will.

Travis sorry to hear yet again another story of damage done in America by the holiness movement. In the UK we never hear of it.

I believe l was sanctified and set apart then entirely so about ten years later and was freed from the presence of anything not God's will in my heart where sin originates. I did lose the blessing a few times but not through deliberate sin. I had no interest in sin at all at that point.

It is nearly impossible to describe what it is like apart from a new creation.

That helps me understand a bit. I believe every believer will have lost the desire to live in sin. It is definitely a function of the new creation. When I do fail (commit an action of sin), It bothers me greatly and I want God to so work a change in me that I never fail in that way again. Remorse over sin is one of the proofs of being born again. If I was not born again, I would sin because I wanted to and feel no remorse.

I am not sure you one can lose their sanctification. If it is God who sanctifies, and if it is an act of grace, then it seems incongruous to me to say it can be lost by an act of sin. Is not every sin we commit willful? We always think before we act, so there is always a choice in the matter. That seems to me like saying we can lose our salvation by committing an act of sin. It is also a gift of grace right?

I agree with you. I am not interested in sin. I hate it. But what happens when I fail to love my wife as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it. What happens when I am selfish in this manner. According to the word of God, I have sinned. I am commented to love her as Christ loves the church. But my salvation is not complete yet. It will only be complete when I receive a glorified body at the end of all things. There is a battle with the flesh until then.

I hope this makes sense. How would a deliberate sin cause one to lose the blessing of sanctification that was given as a work of God's grace and not cause that same person to lose salvation, given as a work of God's grace?

By the way, as a person raised in the USA, I am unfamiliar with many of the denominational distincives that exist in the UK.

Travis, Romans 7 deals with the sins you talked about. Oh wretched man! The answer is moving on to Romans 8, life in the Spirit. It got so bad that l could not bear the unintentional sins but God provides the answer.

I have not lost the sanctified state but l could if l turn away from Him. We are not robots! However the sinless state is taken away like as Job as part of our training.

Travis

How can we have peace and joy when we are overcome by the flesh? We are to be overcomers. If we say we cannot stop unintentional sin then we won't. It is a lie from Satan that we cannot.

Brenda: I don't see Romans 7 as talking about a believer's struggle at all. It seems to me that Paul was pretty clear in saying that this was his struggle under the law, trying in his own effort to please God but failing due to the lack of the power of God in his life.

I don't believe that a Christian struggles constantly with sins that they cannot overcome. However when they do sin, they have an advocate with the Father. Quite the opposite, this brings me great joy. A born again believer has turned from sin, and hates sin. A born again believer has been set free from the dominion of sin. But a born again believer is still in human flesh, and as can still sin. Reference the example about not always being able to fulfill the command to love my wife as Christ loves the church. In that sense, technically, I sin every time I am self-centered and don't give myself for the good of my wife. In those times, I repent and rest in the forgiveness that came through Christ.

Hope that makes sense. I'm not sure but what I might not have communicate well. Seemed like maybe you got out of my comments a level of meaning that I did not intend to put into it.

//Reference the example about not always being able to fulfill the command to love my wife as Christ loves the church. //

Not only that, but what about loving God with *all* your heart, *all* your soul and *all* your strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself? How many times do we fall short in these areas, likely on a regular basis? Someone who says they do not is quite frankly not being truthful.

I honestly just want to please my Lord! Behind the scenes we have no ideal what He is doing within the lives of others as we step out in faith! Brother to through Him become a bright light, that is a star shining bright through all eternities! Stars are different in all proportions, but shine because of Him, and for Him, and through Him, they must! This is our calling, to call all to Christ within our God given creativity. Oh, that Christ would receive all the glory as we point to Him, and more stars are brought forth, because of Him! Too shine unto others through Him. Reflection is our strong suit, through Jesus. Till we fizzle out like the stars I watched as a child on the ground, but still His light will remain, always for all eternity's!

Quote: So, here is my question (as dumb as it might seem to each of you) - Why are you pursuing Entire Sanctification? What is the motive behind it? I guess I am saying, what are you hoping to get out of it for yourself?

Why are you pursuing Entire Sanctification, I would first of all change the question.

Why are pursuing Holiness:- scripture says Hebs 12:14 Pursue holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. This then leads into the reason why I pursue holiness.

After leaving church while praying to let God know that I was going back, I started praying about my calling on my life. I said I didn't know how he was going to do it but believed he would do it.

Then the soft whisper of Holy Spirit:- "You'll be like Job"

Then in the future - many years later I broke out in boils on my body. It was there I remembered - "You'll be like Job"

I went to pray and fasting after this time, I had this thought "what makes a man of God a great man of God". So of I went looking for testimonies of men of God. I got hold of a Duncan Campbell testimony.

When I listened to his testimony, I heard about how he was made clean and pure when lying on battlefield during the 1st world war. Then I was listening to his testimony Duncan said these words "Go for God whatever it takes"

These words cut through time and cut into my heart from that moment God began to open up eyes to condition of my heart and how sin remains after conversion.

I started looking at the book of Job, I saw that in Job 42 he cries "My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you".

Through all the testing and trails Job went through something happened to him, he went from hearing God to seeing God. As we know from Heb 12:15 without Holiness you can't see God.

The motive for it - when I first heard the Spirit of God speak to me, he told me about the calling on my life. I was excited about, I am still excited about it.

However he said at the time "I must become the message"

The motive for Holiness was not my own, God desires me to be Holy. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-13 NCV.

//Brenda: I don't see Romans 7 as talking about a believer's struggle at all. It seems to me that Paul was pretty clear in saying that this was his struggle under the law, trying in his own effort to please God but failing due to the lack of the power of God in his life.//

It is not about the "normal" struggle of a believer agreed which is what Calvinism says. It is indeed Paul's struggle under the law trying to please God but not as a Pharisee when he says that he obeyed the law perfectly.

But as a believer, it describes the crisis one comes to when one has been convicted by God of ones walk in the flesh instead of in the Spirit, whereby the person acknowledges their utter failure in the unintentional sins marring their testimony and letting down their Saviour due to lack of power as you said.

One easily excuses these unintentional sins by blaming childhood abuse, present circumstances etc but one day they realize they are inexcusable if indeed they have not been quenching the Spirit and they come to God for deliverance. If that does not happen in the life of a believer they are in a very sorry state indeed and face great shame/rejection if they reach heaven like that.

I have yet to read the entire thread but I came to understand what it seeks.

My answer is, if entire sacrification is God's will for every earnest child of his (it does seem so on 1 Thesselonians amongst others), then I am under obligation to see to see to it that I partake therein amongs other Christian cross-obligations.

And also wish to add that when I observe the clash between my not feeling unsanctified and sister brendaM's thinking I am, makes me strongly doubt the foundation on which her ES message version stands.

So I will, for Christ's sake, try to candidly read through each of her arguments on the topic to see if I will eventually get what she is presenting. But this must also mean that I will, again for Christ's sake, also labour to refute (not in a bad way at all) any position I might feel she is unjustly maintaining. This is important because for a man's conscience to get sold, doubt should be eliminated so far as possible.

For example, I also feel her usage of Romans 7 is not very accurate, but yes I should read her recent arguments to see where I get to.