Excellent teaching on sanctification and the salvation of the soul.
We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Brother David makes many of the same points as Watchman Need did in his excellent book : "The Salvation of the Soul”.
https://youtu.be/CMhr4L9e1Ew?si=h_nK8IkkLC1SC7sO
David Pawson
I find fault with David Pawson on a number of points: when it says that Jesus was tempted on all points as we are, I don't believe He was tempted to sin, but to depend on His human flesh that is, instincts etc. It is not speaking to those who are lost in sin and trespasses but to those who have been sanctified.
Jesus was born in the likeness of sinful flesh: A good summary of the text can be found in:
//Jesus cannot be tempted if he cannot sin ”“ if he can sin, he isn’t God//
Pawson says that we must choose each day whether we will serve in the flesh or not. If we are in the Spirit we do not go back and forth numerous times a day. We are delivered from the law of sin and death and walk in the light as He was in the light. Pawson is speaking of those who not yet attained that.
He speaks of original sin but it was not a doctrine the ECF's taught and the scriptural 'proof' is very weak.
He says that our adoption as sons occurs when we get our new bodies.
Romans 8:14-17 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons and daughters of God
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:13 and again, "I will put My trust in Him.” And again, "Behold, I and the children whom God has given Me.”
Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Adoption-Through-Christ
David Pawson was a wonderful preacher with a lovely gentle humble manner, and was 'illumined' on the pathway to holiness, but as many other preachers in the west, he was not preaching the fullness of the blessing which the ECF's said came in two sections after the period of training ie illumination before union with Christ. The breathing on of the Holy Spirit before baptism.
"I find fault with David Pawson on a number of points: when it says that Jesus was tempted on all points as we are”
Dear Sister, Jesus Christ the Son of God called Himself the Son of man. God in the flesh. The temptations of the devil which included the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life were real temptations that Jesus had to overcome. Jesus overcame these temptations the same way that we overcome the temptation to sin by saying "It is written” and quoting the Word of God.
"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:14-16).
"At that time Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. " (Matthew 4:11)
It was in the desert that Jesus was tempted. It does not say He was tempted anywhere else.
There, it was not sin that He should eat, it was natural appetite. He was tempted to obey His flesh.
Sister, you are in denial of the clear teaching of the Word of God that Jesus was tempted in every point, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
1 Peter 4:1-2
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
.'" And Jesus answered and said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.'" Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.” (Luke 4:7)
Please read Oswald Chambers on this in the book mentioned. It is really cheap.
Jesus was tempted by satan to obey God in the way that He understood and we are tempted by the same. It is from flesh even pious flesh.
So it seems both of you are limiting the temptations of Jesus to those that directly followed His 40 day fast. I find this a bit amusing if I'm honest - because to limit the teachings of Jesus overcoming temptation to that one event is to thoroughly miss the point. Jesus was tempted in all points, literally and exhaustively all points, as we are and yet, without sin and sins. Pure of sin (not being of Adam), and free from the committal of any sins (never having committed a trespass).
Jesus was daily and always tempted, perhaps more and on higher levels than we will ever be able to conceive - since He is God one would have to think the powers of Satan and his world system were working hard to try and thwart the Fathers will and redemption of creation.
Temptation is part of human existence, and in and of itself is not evil or sinful. Jesus faced and overcame temptation daily - and is able to help us in every event we are tempted.
I think if everyone took a step back and reevaluated this topic, you would see there isn't much room for debate - Jesus was tempted, and never sinned.
"So it seems both of you are limiting the temptations of Jesus to those that directly followed His 40 day fast. I find this a bit amusing.”
Brother, You must have misread my post. I have never limited the temptations of Jesus to his being tempted by the devil in the wilderness. I quoted the scripture in Hebrews 4:14,15). "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.”
I think His greatest temptation was in Gethsemane, although not explicitly stated.
Brenda you are parsing words for some reason known only to you.
To say that Jesus was not tempted to sin but was tempted to follow "human” reasoning (which would have been sin in that situation) is a distinction without a difference, and entirely circular.
If following the wisdom of his flesh would have fallen short of the glory of God, then it would have been sin. Ergo, He was tempted to sin.
It is not clear why you are averse to saying this.
OK, one of the reasons is this. When God has given me the blessing of entire sanctification, not because of my worthiness, l do not get tempted to sin. I am entirely uninterested in it. I want to obey God all of the time, and His power is in me to do so. So how can l think I do better than Jesus?
How can God sin anyway?
In that state however there is always the possibility of doing something in my own strength.
Scripture says Jesus WAS tempted. But you are saying you are not.
What gives?
Brenda,
I guess that Jesus' command to me to encourage you daily not to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin was unnecessary. Strange. We are to encourage one another daily to beware of being hardened by the deceitfulness of sin except that the second sanctification crowd is exempted from the need for this encouragement. If you are wrong and you don't get this encouragement, feel you need it or give it to one another, guess what ?
Likewise, I pose this question to you. In the Colossians letter, Paul prays for the saints that are well known for their true faith in Jesus and their love "in the Spirit" for all the saints. He says, based on the fact that they are walking in the light and in the the Spirit ( 1 John 1), that he constantly and without stop prays for them this prayer:
For this reason also, since the day we heard this, we haven’t stopped praying for you. We are asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, so that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him: bearing fruit in every good work and growing in the knowledge of God, being strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, so that you may have great endurance and patience, joyfully giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the saints’ inheritance in the light. He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. In him we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. -- Colossians 1:9-14 (CSB)
What is the point of praying for these things constantly for people who are already as you would suggest constantly walking in the light, in the Spirit, in His will, bearing fruit, etc. ? Answer, it is a daily need because it is daily to be asked for and daily to be given.
This point is made most simply and clearly in Luke 11 in the Lord's prayer when all the things the Lord says to pray for (His will to be done, forgiveness, fleeing temptation and being delivered from the evil one) are undeniably equated in the passage with asking the good Father for His Spirit (daily) and of course, when we do, for the purposes given in the daily Lord's prayer, He will gladly give. Maybe the Lord's prayer (commanded) isn't for everyone?
Todd l did say that there was the constant temptation to slip up and do things in the flesh from seeing things through the eyes of the flesh is not from a spiritual perspective.
Robert you still need prayer for wisdom and for strength to prevent one from falling etc.
No the Lords prayer is to ask for entire sanctification. It starts off with Our Father who art in heaven not within us via the Holy Spirit.
Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven is the giveaway.
Robert prayers in scripture depend on the spiritual condition of the one(s) prayed for.
"What is the point of praying for these things constantly for people who are already as you would suggest constantly walking in the light, in the Spirit, in His will, bearing fruit, etc. ? Answer, it is a daily need because it is daily to be asked for and daily to be given.”
Thank you Brother Robert! We should be praying the Apostolic prayers for the Church and ourselves on a daily basis. I don’t know any saint that has arrived at full maturity yet. The Apostle Paul said this: "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:12-14)
"and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors..."(Matth 6:12 ESV)
"Primarily, therefore, the words "our debts" represent sins of omission, and "trespasses" the transgression of a law, sins of commission. The distinction, however, though convenient, is more or less technical. Every transgression implies the non-fulfilment of duty in a more aggravated form, and the memory of both presents itself to the awakened conscience under the character of an ever-accumulating debt. Even the sins against our neighbour are, in this sense, debts which we have incurred to God, " (Ellicott's Commentary )
If we believe we don't sin anymore then we don't ask God for forgiveness anymore. We are accumulating our sins before God ! This is very serious.
Markus
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