On tongues

To sister Brenda. Whenever you shall have streanth to consider, please see the following:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

John Welsey commentary:
14:2 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaks, in effect, not to men, but to God - Who alone understands him.

Source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/wes/1_corinthians/14.htm

Speaking in tongues is not enough.If we turn men from unchristian religions to christianity we must produce miracles which convince men that Christ lives and He is real today.

T.L. Osborn

:"It is a wonderful thing to pray in the Spirit and to sing in the Spirit, praying in TONGUES and singing in TONGUES as the Spirit of God gives you utterance.""God has ordained this speaking in an unknown TONGUE unto Himself as a wonderful, supernatural means of communication in the Spirit."*I believe in the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the speaking in TONGUES, and I believe that every man who is baptized in the Holy Ghost will speak in other TONGUES as the Spirit gives him utterance.”

Smith Wigglesworth

John G. Lake said " I want to talk with the utmost frankness and say that tongues has been the making of my ministry. It is that peculiar communication with God when God reveals to my soul the truth I utter to you day by day in the ministry ….. many times I climb out of bed, take my pencil and pad, and jot down the beautiful things of God, the wonderful things of God that he talks out in my spirit and reveals to my heart.”

Amen

Corinthians 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

I will pray with my spirit - I will pray with my mind also

I will sing praise with my spirit - I will sing with my mind.

Singing in tounges for those who want proof in scripture.

I cannot understand why so many people take offense about such a simple basic gift of God.

In essence, they are telling God, we are wise and mature, this is too foolish, why do you give such a gift of babbling to children. How can you take glory from such unintelligable sounds?

It is for building up yourself in the spirit - then they say this is selfish, you should build up others.

I would reply, I can build up others better, when I have built myself up by this precious gift.

Luke 10:21

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

On a cautionary note, I must sadly remark, most of the tongues I have witnessed indeed sound like a repetitive "banana backwards", but as for me, I speak in a structured unknown language, and so do all who have the true gift.

Amen & amen

Same here (very structured and seems also to be in more than 1 variant - the control over which is not my own)

PS. Cannot force them out at will but when standing in prayer, the working is so clear and cannot be simply dismissed without a feeling of grieving the Spirit (ready to thus give utterance)

narrowpath

//On a cautionary note, I must sadly remark, most of the tongues I have witnessed indeed sound like a repetitive "banana backwards", but as for me, I speak in a structured unknown language, and so do all who have the true gift.//

It is those to whom you have an issue, not the ones who have only witnessed them. And no:

//I cannot understand why so many people take offense about such a simple basic gift of God.//

They just find it unscriptural and my now in depth study on the subject, from scripture, will give me that much needed full understanding on the subject. I hope we can discuss it with respect without any name calling and insulting.

Interesting how I have (few minutes ago) just over heard a neighbour praying aloud (for the first time) in what sounded like tongues. It seemed to come from the only family we have known to profess Christianity around.

We tried to associate with them but found their walk quite shallow. My wife visited their church in hope to join but came back cast down at how fleshly the service seemed. My older (10yrs) boy called his younger brother 'crazy' one time and when I asked where he heard it he said it was from the 5yr old from the said home (calling him crazy I reckon).

As I heard the tongues sound, I sought to search for positive as well as negative markers brought up here. He eventually died out before I could make clear sense. But he did seem to run out of utterance at some points - wherein he brought in, at one point, some heee! and haaa! sort of (heard such from a singer too). To me comes the church of Corinthians. A truly baptised someone who is getting carnal with his gift. Babes?

This is just a side note and may be ignored entirely. I just liked the coincidence.

We should all read 1 Corinthians Chapters 12, 13, 14 and also read John 15.
If we believe all of God’s Word we will embrace both the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit. All of the gifts of the Spirit are for the building up of the Body of Christ, but it is sad to say that many Charismatics have not exercised the gifts in the proper way. That is why the love chapter 1 Corinthians 13 was placed in between chapter 12 and 14. The gifts of the Spirit especially the gifts of tongues was being abused in the church at Corinth, and it is still being abused to this day, especially by Pentacostal denominations that teach that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues is necessary for salvation.

On the other hand the cessationists and those that deny the reality of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues are rejecting the very power of God that has been give to the Church for ministry to the Body of Christ. There have been ministers of the gospel that have been faithful for years preaching the gospel that have seen little fruit in their ministries, but after receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Word was preached not with enticing words of man’s wisdom but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, and in many instances they saw a dramatic increase in souls saved, and much more fruit in their ministries to the glory of God.

Good idea Mike but I suggest that we start in the Old Testament, and I will give verses when I have them.

Cessationists by the way do not deny the baptism of the Spirit. They say that it happens at conversion/ first coming to Christ. And they have good scriptures for it and is what I believed myself till I began to read holiness teachers speaking of a second blessing.

It would be good to know what others think about the 'second blessing', baptism of the Spirit.

I must admit that 1 Cor 14 is a tough one, and I have not really gone in depth with it as it seemed too difficult but now I will face it, scripturally.

I do not deny that the fastest growing church is the Pentecostal one with it's 'pop' music and tongues. Brethren we must be very careful in these last days as we have been warned about the great deception. So I would also like to ask what others think this deception is, especially as the conservative churches are withering away in the UK.

I think the love chapter 13 is crucial to understand the baptism

@brother Mike, Ravehill said to have told someone that the cross was not a symbol of Christianity - that power is.

Edited
Since the Spirit cannot be bought with money as Peter told Solomon the sorcerer, anyone who will do signs and wonders but without the accompanying solid tokens of a true Christian must have gotten their power from the enemy. This said, counterfeit is not denied.

But the devil is not dumb to make his schemes easy to decifer. But Jesus came and said, you shall know them by their fruits. If anyone bear godly fruits, no matter how much an issue we make of them, God won't prevent them from entering heaven in that day - just something to remember.

Ravehill said someone asked him if so and so was a Christian and he said I do not know - I never lived with them. So as to say I can tell best if one is a Christians after studying how they get on with the lives.

Unfortunately, it is not practical to physically live with all that we encounter. So often time we have nothing more than their word of testimony to work with. Do we reject that because it is not the same as staying with them.

Of cause I may not be able to ordain them simply from their verbal testimony but that is a good starting point and is better than nothing. And may for example take communion with them, with only just their word of testimony.

38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. 39But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. 40For he that is not against us is on our part.

The desciples found it strange that anyone should be a Christian/disciple without following. But Jesus' answer could be an answer to you too, sister. You are not informed about the to tongues we bring we understand (so did the desciples in a fugure). But will you not consider the fruits?

PS. For he that is not against us is on our part.

Edited

I should be done for today here:

"15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."

If one looks only outwardly, then they should, in their attempt to take strict safety precautions, flee from real sheep too (baby with the bathing water?). So it is very important to look at fruits too.

by brendam
Cessationists by the way do not deny the baptism of the Spirit. They say that it happens at conversion/ first coming to Christ. And they have good scriptures for it and is what I believed myself till I began to read holiness teachers speaking of a second blessing.

It would be good to know what others think about the 'second blessing', baptism of the Spirit.

I've met immature Christian's that speak in tongues.
I've met mature Christian's that do not speak in tongues.

God is no respecter of persons. It rains on the just and the unjust, He gives gifts to those who ask, whether we think they are deserving or not.

I can only speak for myself, over 45 years of having the gift of tongues, I have found what Paul said was least of the gifts to be the most powerful gift to me (and others) at times. Like the old song says, "I wouldn't take nothing for my journey now!!!"

Paul says that prophecy is far preferable as it blesses others whereas tongues benefits ourselves as we feel proud.

Derek Prince has excellent teachings on Baptism of Spirit. If you believe that you have it all when you received Jesus as savior, you won’t seek for anything more..
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.” (John 20:22)
This was the disciples born again experience.

A number of objections are often raised against our conclusion that the manifestation of speaking with tongues is the accepted New Testament evidence that a person has received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. For the sake of clarity and thoroughness, therefore, let us consider some of the most common objections.

One standard objection takes the following form: every Christian automatically received the Holy Spirit at conversion and therefore does not need any further experience or any other evidence to have the assurance of having received the Holy Spirit.

Much confusion and controversy will be avoided once we establish one important, scriptural fact: the New Testament depicts two separate experiences, both of which are described as "receiving the Holy Spirit.” This means it is possible for a Christian to have "received the Holy Spirit” in one use of the expression but not in the other.

A simple way to distinguish these two experiences is to compare the events of two Sundays, each uniquely important in the history of the Christian Church. The first is resurrection Sunday; the second is Pentecost Sunday.

On resurrection Sunday Jesus appeared to the apostles in a group for the first time after His resurrection.

"He breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” (John 20:22)
Jesus’ breathing on the apostles was suited to the words which accompanied it: "Receive the Holy Spirit.” In Greek the same word pneuma means both "spirit” and "breath.” The words of Jesus could therefore be translated, "Receive holy breath.” Furthermore, the tense of the imperative form "receive” indicates that the receiving was a single, complete experience which took place as Jesus uttered the word. It is therefore an incontestable, scriptural fact that at that moment the apostles did actually "receive the Holy Spirit.”

In this first encounter with the resurrected Christ, the apostles passed from "Old Testament salvation” to "New Testament salvation.” Up to that time the believers of the Old Testament had looked forward, by faith, through prophecies and types and shadows to a redemptive act which had not yet taken place. Those who enter into "New Testament salvation,” on the other hand, look back to a single historical event: the death and resurrection of Christ. Their salvation is complete.

There are two requirements for receiving this New Testament salvation.

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Rom. 10:9)
The two requirements are to confess Jesus as Lord and to believe that God raised Him from the dead. Prior to resurrection Sunday the apostles had already confessed Jesus as Lord. But now, for the first time, they also believed that God raised Him from the dead. Thus their salvation was completed.

This was the point at which they experienced the new birth. The Holy Spirit, breathed into them by Jesus, imparted to them a totally new kind of life ”“ eternal life ”“ which had triumphed over sin and Satan, over death and the grave.

Lord Jesus, thank You for the incomprehensible richness of Your Holy Spirit who comes upon Your children when they receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit and which gives them so much power and supernatural presence of Yourself. Amen.

Derek Prince

//This was the point at which they experienced the new birth. The Holy Spirit, breathed into them by Jesus, imparted to them a totally new kind of life ”“ eternal life ”“ which had triumphed over sin and Satan, over death and the grave.//

I don't see it that way.

1 Peter 3:21 says it is baptism that saves: "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

We know that the baptism is not the water one, but the baptism of the Spirit which was prefigured, and fire which came upon them at Pentecost. This can only be the born again event.

Yes I know things have to be shifted around to put that in, but it is what scripture says regardless.

So what was the breathing on of the Spirit? The ECF's had the answer to that one. Having the Spirit breathed on brings the enlightenment we need to wait for the baptism and salvation.