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Heresy of Cessationism

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brothagary Feb 6, 2024

An interesting look into the history of cessationism and words from the church fathers what stood out was John Wesley defending continuism, an arguing against cessationism with Middleton in an old letter

A very thought provoking interesting podcast by Daniel Kolinda


In Episode 9 of the "Heresy of Cessationism" series, Daniel delves into the history behind cessationism, drawing inspiration from John Wesley's response to Conyers Middleton. The episode challenges the cessationist stance, revealing its potential to undermine fundamental Christian beliefs. It emphasizes the dangers of a rigid, Procrustean interpretation of scripture and urges listeners to reevaluate their views on the supernatural within Christianity.


https://youtu.be/VS64t6Rp4jE?si=EBtvLF5S-GzniUA1

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

I hope to watch the referred podcast soon, myself.

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brendaM Feb 6, 2024

Thanks, this was very interesting for me, an ex-cessationist during my early years when I ended up in Calvinism. My own experiences of the Spiritual realm, and holiness writers delivered me from that and I later left the denomination.

Daniel Kolenda however, makes many suppositions that are not correct, the very first one being that 'the church' in the early years was very corrupt. He is speaking of that heretical sect called the Roman Catholic Organization, whereas, the One, Holy, Apostolic catholic church, continued on in unity and without the anti-Christian developments later on ie the Enlightenment, Reformation and Rennaissance which all worked together to destroy true Christianity inside the church and out. It was not a good thing but those blinded by historians think it was.

His theory is wrong. The main reason why cessationists ie Calvinists and definitely genuine believers though mistaken, reject miracles, is because of the Bible verse:

1 Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

They say the perfect is scripture which was held by them to the same place as the Roman pope whereas the true church held direct communication from the Spirit to be first. Of course confirmed by scripture.

They do not however, as the speaker says, discount all miracles. They accept healing by God (but not a healing ministry). They accept the word of knowledge in the form of guidance outside of scripture, like when seeking a new home or job. They may accept tongues as miraculous foreign languages today if needed.

So he is taking things to extremes.

On Wesley he is not correct, that Wesley was an 100% continuist. I think he had a very healthy attitude to the manifestations that were occurring during revivals. He would not condemn them. During visitations of the Spirit, men would often be overcome with their emotions and it would not be conducive to start judging them. Of course, unless they were interupting the services.

"Wesley admitted that genuine spiritual revival seldom happens without outburst of fanaticism. Fanaticism in the Methodist movement had many facets, going on from simple excitement-seeking attitude, which often resulted in uncontrolled and ecstatic behavior, onto the more elaborate theological departures.

Already in 1739, at the earliest stage of the Methodist revival, Wesley was directed to meet some descendants of French Huguenots who spoke ecstatically in unknown tongues without interpretation and calling it "gift of tongues.”

At first, Wesley did not want to hinder their enthusiasm but after several of his members lost taste of religion due to extravagancy of these prophets, Wesley concluded that these individuals were not sent by God and earnestly exhorted **"all that followed after holiness to avoid as fire all who do not speak according "to the law and the testimony.”** 22

22 The only certain test for Wesley was the test of "the law and the testimony” a reference to Isaiah 8:20, which he interpreted as a description of God's Word.

Several drop down as dead and are as stiff as a corpse, but in a while they start up and cry, Glory! Glory! perhaps twenty times together. **Just so did the French Prophets, and very lately the Jumpers in Wales, bring the real work into contempt.** Yet whenever we reprove them, it should be in the most mild and gentle manner possible. "

Wesley’s Diary of June 22, 1739 in WRJW 1:205, 206.

https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=aussj


So we see how Wesley dealt with the charismatics of his day The French Prophets, and there is the story about when he and Charles were travelling and had to share a bedroom with one of them, to which Charles said he would get no sleep with the man speaking gibberish.

I am very suspicious of some of the 'evidence' presented when Wesley talks of tongues but could easily mean foreign languages so I don't know why he is used so much apart from that he taught a baptism of the Spirit.

By the way, it is being spread about me that I condemn the baptism in certain brethren which is a lie as I have maintained yet it continues.

I said that here is a counterfeit and one must look at the fruit produced and test it. It is not up to me to do that. Please do not propagate lies on a Christian forum thanks.

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brendaM Feb 6, 2024

1 Corinthians 14:11

Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

"14:11 I shall be a barbarian to him - Shall seem to talk unintelligible gibberish."

John Wesley commentary

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

The Church in Corith is a good example of the fact that we are never immune from getting off to fanatics. But may that not be the means to steer us well away from welcoming the manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God. The Bible says despise not prophesy. I guess it was because of the counterfeit ones that would contaminate the legit ones - that would leave folks completely averse thereto. My understanding is that baptism that that gives one victory over sin and leave them grieved by those continuing in evil around him like Lot in Sodom cannot be of the enemy. Baptism that leaves one with the Spirit of travail in prayer for the lost - that they too may flee the wrath to come. Or how else should we test it?

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brothagary Feb 6, 2024

Paul said to the church you give thanks well but the others are not built up , this is not fanaticism just an immature use of the gift .

It's was never inherently bad or evil to give thanks well , they didn't put others first this was the root of the disorder rather, not the gift.


Many Christians when they flow in any sort of gift weather it extraordinary and ordinary don't put others first ,

Pastors do this charity workers do the this heresy hunters do that , the self professing entirety sanctified in may case are even more likely to be snared with a spirit of Pride .

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

I am following brothagary - and will not object. I may have mis-used the word 'fanatism'. But I sought to use it to demonstrate that anything that may seem off in a revival can be likened to what ensued at Corith. And not a reason to null and void the entire work.

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

Edited (tongues part removed)

"They accept the word of knowledge in the form of guidance outside of scripture, like when seeking a new home or job."

What you are saying, sister, is that the Holy Spirit can now do the same that he did 'only' through gifts without a gift? If so, then which verse implied that this would eventually be the case?

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brothagary Feb 6, 2024

Oh that is true , we can throw the baby with the bath water . Amen 🙏

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murrcolr Feb 6, 2024

Pentecostal Outpourings in History

From the book: With Signs Following by Stanley H. Frodsham

There are some who state that all miracles, including the speaking with tongues, ceased with the Apostles, this, however, is not the case. During the past nineteen centuries, in times when spiritual life ran high, the Holy Spirit has been received just as at Pentecost, with the accompanying manifestation of the speaking in tongues.

Chrysostum, who lived during a part of the fourth and fifth centuries, wrote: "Whoever was baptized in the apostolic days, he straightway spake with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit; not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God’s grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spake in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongue, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it ‘the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal.’” [1 Corinthians 12:7]
Irenaeus, who was born in Asia Minor in A. D. 115 and who died in Lyons, France, in A. D. 202, who was a scholar of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John, states in his Adv. Haer VI, page 6, "We have many brethren in the churches having prophetical gifts and by the Spirit speaking in all kinds of languages.”

Tertullian, who lived in the second century, speaks of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues, as being still manifest among the Montanists to whom he belonged.

Augustine wrote in the fourth century, "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

Chrysostum, who lived during a part of the fourth and fifth centuries, wrote: "Whoever was baptized in the apostolic days, he straightway spake with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit; not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God’s grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spake in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongue, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states that the glossolalia (or speaking in tongues) "recurs in Christian revivals of every age, e.g., among the mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, among the Jansenists and early Quakers, and persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, and the Irvingites” (Vol. 27, pages 9 and 10, 11th edition).

In the history of the Christian church by Phillip Schaff, Vol. 1 page 237 of the edition of 1882, He shows that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues reappeared from time to time in seasons of religious revival, "as among the Camisards and the prophets of the Cevennes in France, among the early Quakers and Methodist, the Readers (followers of Lasare) in Sweden In 1841-1843, in the Irish revivals of 1859, and especially in the ‘Catholic Apostolic Church,’ commonly called Irvingites, from 1831 to 1833, and even to this day.” In this church history it speaks of Vincent Ferrer who died in 1419, "Spondamus and many others say, this saint was honored with the gift of tongues.” This work also tells of Francis Xavier, who died in 1552, that he "is said to have made himself understood by the Hindus without knowing their language.” The Catholic Encyclopedia also speaks of him preaching in tongues unknown to him. Xaviar was a truly converted man and a most remarkable missionary.

In a German church history, Souer’s History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, page 406, the following words are found: "Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit.”

Writing of the revivals among the Huguenots, Pastor A. A. Boddy states: "When Louis XIV of France in 1685 revoked the Edict of Nantes which had given religious liberty, he strove by dragonades to drive Protestants into the Roman Catholic Church. The Huguenots were led by John Cavalier, a farmer, into inaccessible mountains. Among these persecuted people were those who spoke in tongues. There are records both by enemies and by friends as to their prophetic gifts.

"Prophets came from the Cevennes to Holland, and on to Germany. At that time among the professors and students there was a great receptivity to God’s power. In 1714 they brought the gift of tongues and prophecy to Wetterau, near Frankfurt-on-Main. their leaders were an ejected Wurtemburg pastor named Gruber and a Brother Rock, a saddler. They and their ‘gifted’ followers were called ‘the inspired ones of the Wetterau.’”

in the diary of Thomas Walsh, one of Wesley’s [John Wesley] foremost preachers, March 8, 1750, the record stands: "this morning the Lord gave me language that I knew not of, raising my soul to him in a wonderful manner.”

Mr. O. P. Simmons of Frost Proof, Fla, writing in "A Call to Faith” in November, 1909, states: "While I have been a church member for sixty-two years, I have associated with those who talk in tongues for fifty-two years. In Southern New England, among the Second Adventists, A. D. 1857, I learned that some had for three years previously in their religious worship spoken in what is termed as ‘the unknown tongue.’ From 1824 down to the present time, from Maine to Connecticut, quite a good number of the Adventist people (known as ‘gift Adventists’) have had more or less talking in tongues and also the interpretation of tongues. Some gifted men of their ministry had been thus exercised. The most talking in tongues has been that of Wm. H. Doughty, a minister for over forty years. He was the leader among the Gift Adventists. the writer knew him well. He was a very sweet-spirited, humble Christian, of great power in prayer. He was often called to lay hands on the sick, when some instant faith healings of chronic diseases were the result.”

Miss Maria Gerber, Who spent many years of faithful service in Turkey as a missionary and at one time was head of a large orphanage there, has told us how in the days of her early experience as a Christian She would go along the roads in Switzerland singing for joy, and frequently she would have a song in other tongues. After she was marvelously healed of the Lord she went to New York to receive training as a missionary at the school of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. She could only speak German when she arrived in New York (she came from that part of Switzerland where only German is spoken) but while praying for a sick person the Lord gave her the ability to speak in purest English. She could understand perfectly some of the teachers at the training school in New York but others she could not understand at all. She stated that she could always understand those who spoke under the anointing of the Spirit but she could not understand those who did not speak in the Spirits power, and so she ceased to attend their lectures.

Pentecostal Outpourings in History


There has never been a time when the gifts of the Holy Spirit completely ceased to function in the Church of Jesus Christ. History undeniably refutes the claim that it has.

Read the below chapter from Stanley Frodhsam’s book, With Signs Following, as that chapter gives many examples from history of the continuation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

In Northwest Ohio, my (Chet Swearingen) ancestors were severely persecuted by denominational churches as those churches opposed the reviving work of the Holy Spirit at the turn of the last century. Now that Pentecostalism (Charismatic) has gone mainstream, it is common to find churches that once embraced those doctrines, now being embarrassed with aspects of the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

Pentecostal Outpourings in History

From the book: With Signs Following by Stanley H. Frodsham

There are some who state that all miracles, including the speaking with tongues, ceased with the Apostles, this, however, is not the case. During the past nineteen centuries, in times when spiritual life ran high, the Holy Spirit has been received just as at Pentecost, with the accompanying manifestation of the speaking in tongues.

Chrysostum, who lived during a part of the fourth and fifth centuries, wrote: "Whoever was baptized in the apostolic days, he straightway spake with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the ancient Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit; not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God’s grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spake in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongue, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it ‘the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal.’” [1 Corinthians 12:7]

Irenaeus, who was born in Asia Minor in A. D. 115 and who died in Lyons, France, in A. D. 202, who was a scholar of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John, states in his Adv. Haer VI, page 6, "We have many brethren in the churches having prophetical gifts and by the Spirit speaking in all kinds of languages.”

Dean Farrar in his book "Darkness to Dawn” in which he states: "Even to the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority,” refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

Tertullian, who lived in the second century, speaks of the spiritual gifts, including the gift of tongues, as being still manifest among the Montanists to whom he belonged.

Augustine wrote in the fourth century, "We still do what the apostles did when they laid hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues.”

Even in the "dark ages” God gave some gracious revivals. From the twelfth to the fifteenth century there were revivals in Southern Europe in which many spoke in other tongues. Foremost among these revivalists were the Waldenses and Albigenses.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states that the glossolalia (or speaking in tongues) "recurs in Christian revivals of every age, e.g., among the mendicant friars of the thirteenth century, among the Jansenists and early Quakers, and persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, and the Irvingites” (Vol. 27, pages 9 and 10, 11th edition).

In the history of the Christian church by Phillip Schaff, Vol. 1 page 237 of the edition of 1882, He shows that the phenomenon of speaking in tongues reappeared from time to time in seasons of religious revival, "as among the Camisards and the prophets of the Cevennes in France, among the early Quakers and Methodist, the Readers (followers of Lasare) in Sweden In 1841-1843, in the Irish revivals of 1859, and especially in the ‘Catholic Apostolic Church,’ commonly called Irvingites, from 1831 to 1833, and even to this day.” In this church history it speaks of Vincent Ferrer who died in 1419, "Spondamus and many others say, this saint was honored with the gift of tongues.” This work also tells of Francis Xavier, who died in 1552, that he "is said to have made himself understood by the Hindus without knowing their language.” The Catholic Encyclopedia also speaks of him preaching in tongues unknown to him. Xaviar was a truly converted man and a most remarkable missionary.

In a German church history, Souer’s History of the Christian Church, Vol. 3, page 406, the following words are found: "Dr. Martin Luther was a prophet, evangelist, speaker in tongues, and interpreter, in one person, endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit.”

Writing of the revivals among the Huguenots, Pastor A. A. Boddy states: "When Louis XIV of France in 1685 revoked the Edict of Nantes which had given religious liberty, he strove by dragonades to drive Protestants into the Roman Catholic Church. The Huguenots were led by John Cavalier, a farmer, into inaccessible mountains. Among these persecuted people were those who spoke in tongues. There are records both by enemies and by friends as to their prophetic gifts.

"Prophets came from the Cevennes to Holland, and on to Germany. At that time among the professors and students there was a great receptivity to God’s power. In 1714 they brought the gift of tongues and prophecy to Wetterau, near Frankfurt-on-Main. their leaders were an ejected Wurtemburg pastor named Gruber and a Brother Rock, a saddler. They and their ‘gifted’ followers were called ‘the inspired ones of the Wetterau.’”

in the diary of Thomas Walsh, one of Wesley’s [John Wesley] foremost preachers, March 8, 1750, the record stands: "this morning the Lord gave me language that I knew not of, raising my soul to him in a wonderful manner.”

Mr. O. P. Simmons of Frost Proof, Fla, writing in "A Call to Faith” in November, 1909, states: "While I have been a church member for sixty-two years, I have associated with those who talk in tongues for fifty-two years. In Southern New England, among the Second Adventists, A. D. 1857, I learned that some had for three years previously in their religious worship spoken in what is termed as ‘the unknown tongue.’ From 1824 down to the present time, from Maine to Connecticut, quite a good number of the Adventist people (known as ‘gift Adventists’) have had more or less talking in tongues and also the interpretation of tongues. Some gifted men of their ministry had been thus exercised. The most talking in tongues has been that of Wm. H. Doughty, a minister for over forty years. He was the leader among the Gift Adventists. the writer knew him well. He was a very sweet-spirited, humble Christian, of great power in prayer. He was often called to lay hands on the sick, when some instant faith healings of chronic diseases were the result.”

Miss Maria Gerber, Who spent many years of faithful service in Turkey as a missionary and at one time was head of a large orphanage there, has told us how in the days of her early experience as a Christian She would go along the roads in Switzerland singing for joy, and frequently she would have a song in other tongues. After she was marvelously healed of the Lord she went to New York to receive training as a missionary at the school of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. She could only speak German when she arrived in New York (she came from that part of Switzerland where only German is spoken) but while praying for a sick person the Lord gave her the ability to speak in purest English. She could understand perfectly some of the teachers at the training school in New York but others she could not understand at all. She stated that she could always understand those who spoke under the anointing of the Spirit but she could not understand those who did not speak in the Spirits power, and so she ceased to attend their lectures.

At an international conference held in England in 1885, Mrs. Michael Baxter, the widow of the late Michael Baxter, the author of the well-known book "Forty Future Wonders of Scripture Prophecy,” and the founder of the Christian Herald of London and the Christian Herald of New York, told of being able to preach for thirty-five minutes in German when she was almost entirely unfamiliar with the language. She was well understood and one soul was converted. She stated, "After that He led me to speak almost every day, and often twice a day to hundreds of people, although when I went into a shop I could not make myself understood, nor could I understand the people.”

Some years ago Dr. F. B. Meyer visited Estonia, one of the Baltic provinces of Russia, where he found some simple peasant congregations of Baptists. He wrote to the London "Christian” of the wonderful work of the Holy Ghost that he saw among them. He stated, "It is very remarkable, at a time when the Lutheran church of this land had lost its evangelistic fervor and is inclined to substitute forms an rites for the living power of Christ, that God raised up a devoted nobleman, Baron Uxhull, To preach the gospel in all its simplicity, and is renewing among the peasantry those marvelous manifestations which attended the first preaching of the gospel when God bore witness to the message of salvation ‘With signs and wonders and gifts of the Holy Ghost’ [Hebrews 2:4]. To have come across a movement like this is intensely interesting. The gift of tongues is heard quite often in the meetings, especially in the villages, but also in the towns. Here at Reval (now Tallinn, Estonia], the pastor of the Baptist church tells me that they often break out in his meetings. They are most often uttered by young women, less frequently by men. When they are interpreted they are found to mean, ‘Jesus is coming soon; Jesus is near. Be ready; be not idle.’ When they are heard, unbelievers who may be in the audience are greatly awed. A gentleman who was present on one occasion was deeply impressed by the fact that those who spoke were quite ordinary people until they were uplifted as it were by a trance and then they spoke with so much fluency and refinement.’”

In the year 1889 Daniel Awrey received a remarkable conversion. On the last night of the year he was much exercised to receive a deeper experience from God. He attended a prayer meeting on January 1, 1890, and while praying there the Spirit of God fell upon him and he began to speak in another tongue. This occurred in the city of Delaware, OH. later, he and his wife lived at Benah, Tenn., and here in 1899 about a dozen received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Daniel Awrey preached the gospel all around the world, until he laid down his life in Africa in 1913.

The following testimony appeared in the "Upper room,” a paper published in Los Angeles, Calif. "On April 9, 1898, the blood of Jesus Christ cleansed me from all sin: then three days after the heavens were opened unto me and the Holy Ghost descended in bodily shape like a dove upon me, with fire, and I began to speak in another tongue as the spirit gave me utterance, magnifying God. At the time I was alone in my room; had been tarrying there for six days, and this had been my most unceasing prayer, ‘Lord, baptize me with the Holy Ghost.’ The fire descended upon me and went through my flesh as ashes go through a sieve. I worship God in Spirit and in truth. I had no utterance except as the Spirit gave it. That night I was taught to look for the soon coming of Jesus. For over six years I was in fellowship with the ‘Brethren,’ but they began to persecute ‘this way’ when the gracious showers from the Lord began to come. And this called forth my testimony straight and clear to them as never before. the result has been that the ‘Brethren’ have set me at naught, forbidding my approach to the Lord’s table, saying that I was unfit to eat and that I was holding forth false doctrine. They said that no one received from the Lord what was given at Pentecost. I testified to seeing the Lord Jesus; they said that He did not appear to anyone now and that therefore I lied! But beloved, none of these things moved me, for I speak that which I do know and I testify that which I have seen. The Lord is using me here; only one other sister stands with me. She also witnessed the Holy Ghost coming up on her like a dove (in July, 1908). She was a French Roman Catholic and was marvelously converted to God twenty-seven years ago and has been speaking fluently in the English language ever since. Her name is Mrs. Harriett Gravelle. the battle of the Lord is on here. ””Martha J. Lewis, London, Ont. Canada.”

Elder Jethro Walthall writes: "A great holiness revival occurred in and around Greenville, S. C. in 1894-1895. A Baptist minister, Robert R. Singleton, was the prominent leader. He was excommunicated from his church and there came such a following that Paris Mountain Holiness Baptist Church was formed, three miles from Greenville. In 1905 there was such a spiritual upheaval in that church that a number spoke in tongues.” Brother Walthall held a meeting among these people in 1911, in which the Spirit of God worked very mightily and many were filled with the Spirit, speaking other tongues. There were remarkable healings and many other manifestations of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit. During the progress of this great revival the spiritual tide returned in full force with divers tongues, many visions and other manifestations of the Spirit.

Mr. H. L. Christopher of New Britain, Connecticut, tells us of a remarkable revival that the Lord gave in Oslo, Norway, in 1899, in which many Norwegian people were filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Mrs. Sarah A. Smith, who laid down her life in Egypt in 1918, testified to having received the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues and with interpretation at a meeting in Tennessee in the year 1900. More than forty were baptized in the Spirit at the same time.

It will be seen from what has been written in previous chapters that since the year 1906, the speaking with other tongues has been universal. Since the same significant phenomenon Is occurring in all parts of the earth today as was seen in the days of the "early rain,” as described in the Acts of the Apostles, surely it suggests that we are in the days of the "latter rain,” that "rain” is due before the coming of the Lord. The Apostle James reminds us:

"Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.” [James 5:7]

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twayneb Feb 6, 2024

As a pentacostal who believes strongly in the continuation of the gifts seen in the book of Acts, for most of my life I avoided listening to anyone who I considered a cessationist. In the past year or two, events that I have experienced have caused my to broaden my horizons, so to speak, and listen to some cessationists. Here is what I learned.

1) They do not deny the power of God through the Holy Spirit.
2) They do not believe that miracles have ceased. They believe in asking God to do things, believing He can, and leaving the outcome in God's hands.
3) They do not believe that healing has ceased. They believe in asking God to heal, believing He can, and leaving the outcome in His hands.
4) They DO believe that the miracles, signs and wonders performed by the Apostles were a sign to the world that the Apostles were from God.
5) They DO believe that these sign gifts have ceased. Among these would be men performing miracles and healing people.
6) They DO believe in elders anointing with oil and praying for the sick. If the person is healed, they would usually say God did it sovereignly.

While I disagree with some of these things, NONE of them constitutes heresy. I saw the Kolenda video. I think he set up a strawman by mischaracterizing and then sought to have others react to the strawman. Again, I am NOT a cessationist and I believe they are misinterpreting some scripture, but they are definitely not heretics because of their cessationist beliefs.

If there are true cessationists on this forum, PLEASE correct me if I have any of this wrong about what you believe.

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

While this makes a good general structure, right inside each class you find those who's assertions are partial as well as those who are entirely in - which further complicates things. Like a 5% cessationalist will not reason the same as a 95%. Someone here said that Wesley was not 100% Cessational meaning he overlapped (if it is true)... It gets complicated. Is ours then not to try and understand the cause of all this confusion, perhaps?

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twayneb Feb 6, 2024

Kervin: Agreed. But even if a person is 100% in each of the classes or beliefs I mentioned, it is not heretical. So if you disagree with cessationists 100%, and if they believe what I outlined 100%, you could still not call them heretics. You could, at best, say, "I disagree completely with their position."

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

I also agree there. And then I so wonder why it so gets? The devil, our illiteracy or something God deicided to leave there so we get to keep looking at Christ alone and not man?

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brendaM Feb 6, 2024

Travis

As an ex-Cessationist, you summary is spot on and a bit of sanity here. And you are correct, I should not have missed this but, they are not heretics. Kolenda did set up a straw man.

It is tongues they disagree with the most, and the stress on healing. The continuists however, are having to backtrack when so many of their leaders and prominent people have or are dying of the same illnesses as everyone else. It is going to come right down on their heads before too long.

They also have to answer questions like, what were they doing during the plandemic?

The fact is that the healing we see in the NT was a sign that the ultimate healer had arrived, of our sick souls. Not many cases are reported these days and if they do arise, we must never forget that the devil can do these things. God does still heal though.

I must say though, that amongst the cessationists, even though they misinterpret scripture a lot, they are usually honest people and are not into the deception I meet in the other side of the stable.

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twayneb Feb 6, 2024

There are doctrinal issues that we should be divided on. These are the heresy issues, or at least the clear cut right and wrong issues. If you deny the virgin birth or deny that Jesus is God in the flesh, then you are in heresy. If you claim that you are saved by your works, rather than by Jesus's sacrifice, then you are in heresy. If your doctrinal belief causes you to follow anything other than Jesus, to get your eyes off of Him, then you might by in heresy. At a bare minimum you are in an error that you need to recognize and repent of before you are led astray. But to believe that God does miracles and heals by His sovereign will rather than anointing men to do these works does not cause you to take your eyes off of Jesus, neither does it make you a heretic.

I think that is the way I would put it.

Good point Kervin. Often this debate does take people's eyes off of Jesus and puts them on their disagreements with each other. There are things we SHOULD disagree with, and that vehemently. Then there are issues like this. We can discuss them, but we need to do so as brothers who recognize one another as such. To say, "The Cessationish Heresy" just demonstrates that you have priorities other than sound doctrine and keeping your eyes on Jesus. By my observation, Kolenda has an agenda. Without a signs and wonders doctrine, his entire Christology and Pneumatology collapses. So, cessationists must be heretics.

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

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twayneb Feb 6, 2024

Brenda: I totally agree with you here.

As a pentacostal who believes in praying in tongues and has seen the legitimate gift of tongues operate in the body a few times, I think a lot of the "tongues" we hear are just total gibberish, a product of people getting into the flesh and not in the Spirit. I know the father of a girl who at age 14 prayed in Spanish for a man in the Dominical Republic. She prayed for his exact malady, and she did not know ANY Spanish. This is one example of legitimate tongues.

Cessationists do tend to have an issue with tongues. But again, most I have heard have said that the gift could still happen today, but it must be within Biblical parameters. I agree with them. I just see it as more common and more powerful in the life of a believer than they do. Again, not heresy.

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

Makes sense and I pardoned the thread title as I understood it to be the video's title there which I had not gotten to see yet. It is just unfortunate when you find brethren unalable to get on unless these differences are ironed out. Unfortunately, it does so appear that God is not there (in minor differences) - so it seems much like chasing the wind.

It seems plausible that God would leave these areas unclarified so that we keep looking at him who's knowledge is complete. As opposed to men who only know in part?

PS. So it is huge pride that we need to swallow and jointly go seek God amidst them.

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KervinM Feb 6, 2024

In case you had missed, brother Travis, our sister (from what I know to date) does not have the 'praying in tongues' in her theological phrases. And therefore cannot pray with you most probably lest you therein contaminate her with the "suspicious tongues praying spirit". How would you comment on that brother? Or is this not what I mean it gets bad?

Perhaps she'll understand you (if not already have). I say this so that you do not waste time thinking you are both on the same page as it is not so to my understanding.

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