Homosexuality in the Church Of England

I disagree with "homosexuals" i.e. people who willing choose to take part in homosexual acts, taking any leadership in the church, which includes being "ordained" in the COE.My question is, how "good" or how "un-bad" must a person be to be in leadership in the church?Homosexuals are mentioned alongside lots of other types of sinners in 1 Corinthians 6 and these people are said not to inherit the kingdom of God:9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Well lets begin with the obvious scriptures in Timothy and Titus. I have compiled alist of the characteristics for both overseeing and serving grouping them into positive and negative:Positiveblameless (irreproachable)husband of one wifeself-controlledsensiblea friend of strangers (or, hospitable)skillful at teachingpatientconducting his own house wellhaving children in submission with all dignitya good testimony from those withoutgraveholding the mystery of the faith in a pure consciencejustHolding fast the faithful wordholynegativenot addicted to winenot violentnot greedy for dishonest gainnot a brawlernot covetousnot a new convertnot double-tonguednot headstrongThis has to be the place to begin, however I don't believe these qualities are listed in the same sense they would be for a job interview, "line up with your resumes for the position of Bishop" they are general characteristics that all Gods people should have operating in them. Paul asked Timothy and Titus to recognise certain men with these qualities to be recognised as elders, I believe that these would be men who were showing alot of strenth in those areas and so could be entrusted to be recognised as leaders in the assembly.Slightly off topic, but I do believe there is a lot at fault in the usual paradiagm of church leadership, the distinction betwen laity and clergy (call them what you will) is a false dichotomy, all God's people should be ministers (servants) some, who are mature do watch over the flock (particualarly the new converts) but if they are true leaders they will be quickly leading others into the maturity that they have.the office of a bishop in 1 tim 3:1 should be translated as oversight ...if any man aspires to oversight. Gifts in the new testament are functions rather than "offices" or official positions.Peace, Stuart.

Before I begin, know that I realize that there are more qualities necessary in a church leader than the one I'm focusing on, but that I'm just trying to bring attention to something.In the list compiled by Nasher, the first characteristic was to be "blameless". To be blameless means that you've done nothing wrong -- that you haven't sinned.We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and it is only Christ's righteousness in us that makes us blameless.So first and foremost -- and though it seems obvious, I don't seem to see it as much as we should -- the church leader must be a Christian!How could a Christian live the life of a homosexual without being convicted of this blatant sin? Do they not read the Bible? Are they more in love with their sin than with God? Yes, they are.In being a Christian, we surrender and sacrifice all...our lives, our sin, our personal wants, wishes, desires, hopes, and dreams. We sacrifice it all and replace them with a godly life, with Christ's righteousness, ad with God's wants, wishes, desires, hopes, and dreams for us.A leader of the body of Christ must set the example for those he is leading...there is no compromise.

In the biblical sense, "blameless" does not mean one has never sinned. Job, for example, is called "blameless."Secondly, the word here is "anepilepton," which means "unsiezable" or "unreproachable." The idea is that it must be someone who is living in such a way that no one can step in and say "oh, look what I caught him doing -- he's not so holy after all." (This brings to mind the situations with Jimmy Swaggart and Roberts Liardon -- situations which brought shame to the Church.)The word includes the necessity of Christianity by all means (that's an implicit requirement), but the force of the word has more to do with someone who lives in such a way that no one can step up with a legitimate accusation against them. It is relatable to 1 Peter 3:16-17, which says, "Keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong."Again, the point is "let your actions be such that any accusation is slander and brings shame to your accusers." That is the force of the word here.

In the list compiled by Nasher, the first characteristic was to be "blameless". Actually, that was almondbranch..But, Amen! To the following:So first and foremost -- and though it seems obvious, I don't seem to see it as much as we should -- the church leader must be a Christian!If we cannot get past this fundamental "Must" there is no point going any further, no sense in listening to any rhetoric, opinion or debate regarding "issues".It should be obvious, but sadly it is conspicious by it's very absence.And instead of a flat and decisive blank statement (From the church). We now have to be 'tolerant' and decide what kind of launguge it is going to be couched in.."How should we word this..."Simple, call it what it is.Sin.Just like all the other's listed, gluttony, drunkeness, etc.

Hi AlmondBranchyour quote: "Well lets begin with the obvious scriptures in Timothy and Titus. I have compiled alist of the characteristics for both overseeing and serving grouping them into positive and negative:"Just thought I would say how I appreciate the word 'characteristics' used here and later in your post. There is a tendency to call these things 'qualifications' or 'criteria' but I think you are right, these things are 'characteristic' of an elder; they are the descriptions of his character not his attainments. These are not standards to be achieved but what the man is 'naturally' (by new birth). With each category the question could be asked e.g. 'is brother X hospitable?'. If the answer isn't an immediate, instinctive 'yes' it is almost certainly NOT 'characteristic'. It is interesting that a person could have all these characteristics and still be a 'novice'. What do you think that implies? I have my own thoughts but would like to hear others'.

It is interesting that a person could have all these characteristics and still be a 'novice'. What do you think that implies? I have my own thoughts but would like to hear others'.Haven't thought too much about it except for the fact that a novice has not yet been tested. i don't mean tested by others in an interview or 12 week trial or whatever but tested by the trials that are promised us in this life. A person can have all these characteristics but given a bit of percieved prominence they can quickly become proud and self motivated. I think one thing is that a novice has to learn that serving in the body is all about brining about an increase of the experience of Christ in the one(s) you are serving not in promoting your own "ministry" spend some time doing that and perhaps the title novice will begin to apply less and less to you.1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

'novice' is neophyte, literally 'a newly planted one'. What might that mean? Newlyplanted where?

Jake's quote: I believe Jesus used the phrase "brood of vipers."Hi JakeIt was John the Baptist [Matt 3:7,8]and he used it of people who would not give up behaviour which was offensive to God. He exhorted them to bring forth fruit meet for repentance or in other words 'quit sinning'.Have you ever noticed Paul's description of the church in Corinth; Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.In particular, notice the tenses of the last statements. A free translation would read In the past some of you used to behave like this, but you have now been made clean....The authentic attitude of Christ to all sin is as follows neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more; the first clause must never be separated from the second.

I am an elder in His church. I believe the qualifications for a leader are best summed up by 1 John 2:13, "I write to you, fathers, because you have known Him who is from the beginning,..." Paul write to the Corinthians, "For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers..."1 Corinthians 4:15 I am not a father, as Paul or John would see. Both men are calling all to grow in the maturity of Christ. Jesus has much work to do in me. Yet, I know a father in the church will have learned to follow the Spirit of Christ. I know that the Spirit will cause a man to die to the flesh. I know the Spirit will lead a man in the paths of righteousness. I know the fruit of the Spirit. I am beginning to know the things of the Spirit. And I know that a self professed homosexual leader in the church has climbed into the sheep pen by another way. He has not enter through the door which is Christ.These are strong words. But a father in His church will have known Him who is from the beginning. Even the young man that John writes of, "I write to you young men, because the word of God abides in you, AND YOU HAVE OVERCOME THE WICKED ONE." 1 John 2:14.

Jake wrote; A person born of a homosexual nature can no more easily quit being that than can a heterosexual deny his/her nature. (I do agree that some may be making a conscious choice. But there are clearly others for whom this is not a choice, as they have been of this nature for as long as they can remember.You might be convinced that people cannot give up homosexuality, that is a popular belief these days. But it is not true. It might be true if they try on their own, but it is not true if they commit their lives to the Lord Jesus Christ and allow Him to change them. This is, of course, true of any and all sin, not just homosexuality. Here is a link to a web site with many testimonies of people who have been delivered from homosexuality through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Many of these folks once thought as you do about their sin.Stone Wall RevisitedMay the Lord bless you yet more,Ron

If homosexuality was from birth what then do we make of these verses from Genesis ?Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen 1:27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gen 1:28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.Why is it that we have to accept anything and everything in todays society also in the church ? Because we have chosen to forget God's word as guidance and instead want to be accepted in the eyes of men and follow man made laws, anti discrimination being one of them, yet the same law discriminates against anybody that follows the commandments of God ? In accordance with God's word we are to render a decision whether something is wrong or right ?Is someones behaviour right or wrong morally ?Is it scriptural or unscriptural ?Is it of God, or is it of the flesh, or is it of the devil ?1Co 6:5 I say this to move you to shame. What, cannot there be found among you one wise man who shall be able to decide between his brethren,We are to discern and not just accept anything and by doing it biblically I don't believe we are holding anybody in contempt. By the fruits we are known.Phi 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are through Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God. Jam 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without variance, without hypocrisy. I don't hate the homosexual but the practice of homosexuality. Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but by their works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.The same longsuffering as below is also available for a sinner today. 1Ti 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 1Ti 1:16 howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life.As for making myself sinfree, what would that make the grace of God ? Yes, I fail in a lot of ways but I have an intercessor on my behalf in heaven. My will is to die to myself and for Him to increase in me.Joh 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

Hi Jakeyour quote: go and sin no more is impossible. Can anyone say that they have given up all sinful activity? And one sin is as good as another. A person born of a homosexual nature can no more easily quit being that than can a heterosexual deny his/her nature.It is also impossible to walk on water, or to stretch forth a withered arm. What makes the impossible possible is the enabling word of Christ.This is Charles Wesley :'Twas most impossible of allThat here sin's reign in me should ceaseYet shall it be, I know it shallJesus, Look to Thy faithfulness!If nothing is too hard for Thee,All things are possible to meand this, our mutual friend Robert Barclay in 1675The Eight PropositionConcerning PerfectionIn whom this holy and pure birth is fully brought forth, the body of death and sin comes to be crucified and removed, and their hearts united and subjected unto the truth, so as not to obey any suggestion or temptation of the evil one, but to be free from actual sinning, and transgressing of the law of God, and in that respect perfect. Yet doth this perfection still admit of a growth; and there remaineth a possibility of sinning, where the mind doth not most diligently and watchfully attend unto the Lord.

Nevertheless, go and sin no more is impossible. Blasphemey. You do not know the power of the cross nor the power of the resurrection. The cross causes the flesh and its lusts to die. The resurrection gives the same body life to do what it could have never done otherwise. It gives the flesh the power to live according to the Spirit of God.Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 Buf if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.A born again Christian is no longer obligated to sin. To "go and sin no more" is a reality that the Christian can enjoy. For the same power that raised Christ from the dead is living inside us, to give us strength. Surely, if that power could overcome death, then it can overcome temptation and sin. The Scriptures clearly teach a Christian is not required to sin. They can go the rest of their lives, no matter how short or how long, and never sin again because of the power of the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

My faith is in the forgiveness of sin through grace...Many mistake God's attribute of mercy with His provision of grace. Grace is the power, the unmerited favour, that God's enables us with. First it is given to prepare the vessel. This enables us to come near to Him. This part of life with the Holy Spirit is a time of conviction and victory over the wicked one and our flesh. Once prepared by the grace of God, we are sent out to do His work."For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10.God's attribute of mercy is reflected in His loving nature for His creation. Many today seperate the God of the books of Moses and the Prophets with the God of New Testament. Jesus is coming back a second time! "By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; and before all the people I must be glorified." Leviticus 10:3Ananias and Sapphira experienced to God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Hi Jakeyour quote:But the way that Jesus has described sin makes it clear to me that while I cannot attain a sinfree life, striving for this is what makes the difference.Do not deceive yourselves into thinking you are Holy because you believe in Christ.Now you are confusing justification with sanctification. Please tell me where Jesus said that 'striving for a sinfree life.. is what makes the difference'.your quote:These offer me a way to negate sin in my lifePlease explain how sin can be 'negated'. I can see from the bible how it can be covered, forgiven, remitted, cleansed, removed, washed, and a few more, but would like to understand 'negated'.