Asceticism or the leading of the Spirit?

This thread is carried over from the 'obese Christians' thread. Here we plan to discuss the distinction between basic asceticism and Spirituality or how they could possibly relate to one another. For starters I hope all were able to read the wikipedia article on asceticism that Ron referred to (you can find it HERE). A good starting question I think is, what is the criteria or protocol for implementing an ascetic practice either to abstain from certain things or enguaging in works (a form of ascetic bahavior)? there are some things that can be labeled as 'ascetic' which is basic compliance to scripture, but what about those areas where there is no real direction? What role does the Holy Spirit play in all these things? Do we make up rules for ourselves hoping that God will accept them as some sort of sacrifice even though He may not have required it at our hands, or do we seek to know prayerfully what God's direction for our life is and allow the Holy Spirit to tailor our convictions to the purpose for which He has called us?Any Comments?

Should the priority be the method or the purpose? Given the crudest idea that asceticism means making life uncomfortable for ourselves... why?

I think the purpose has to be the main concern. I'm probably being real narrow minded here, but I generally try not to be preoccupied with finding new ways to make my life uncomfortable. One the other hand I try to be sensitive to the leading of the Spirit as He directs my way and convicts me of certain things that I may have done in the past that were in some way entertaining, etc. Because we are so different as individuals there could be any number of things that could lead to destruction in my life that may have no real impact on others (and vise versa). Moreover if I look in the mirror and try to determine what is best for me I may get my life dangerously out-of-whack in such a way as to make me vulnerable to other attacks from the enemy. Case in point were the folks at Corinth who seem to have felt that abstenence in marriage was somehow a virtue- but in reality it opened the door to the enemy to bring temptation for the incontinency of one or the other party. It would be horrible to think we were being 'spiritual' by fasting physical needs within marriage only to find out that our spouse had fallen into an affair while we were being 'super spiritual'. That is an extreme example, but I am trying to emphasize that God knows best in these matters. I have an old saying that if we limit ourself from the things that God approves the enemy will find a way to trip us in that which God does not approve. Make sense?

Agreed then, the purpose is the main concern. I am trying to use the broad brush approach in thinking this through, so what is the purpose. Very generally, then...To aid my attempts to get closer to God? To enhance my spiritual capacity? To crush my pride in myself? To weaken my body so that my spirit can make contact with God?I am just trying to drill down to the absolute basics here. What is the ascetic trying to do and why does he think asceticism will help?

To aid my attempts to get closer to God? To enhance my spiritual capacity? To crush my pride in myself? To weaken my body so that my spirit can make contact with God?Sounds to me like we are trying to lead God here rather than Him leading us. :-?Is not the essence of all our Spiritual lives to 'follow'? In the Old Testament they followed the cloud. In the New Testament they followed Christ. Could asceticism be a bad case of trying to ram the cart out in front of the horse?

I am looking at that list again from a different angle and am thinking that it is exactly what we try to do. 1) Aid my attempts at trying to get closer to God* some things are between God and me* something is a hindrance to my devotional life* something has taken the place of my effection for Christ2) To enhance my Spiritual capacity* I can only be as full of the Holy Spirit as I am empty of myself?3) To crush my pride in myself?* This is a tough one. Some sort of self-inflicted chastisement to bring myself low. 4) To weaken my body so my Spirit can make contact with God * Sounds kind of dualistic. * could be the purpose of fastingI am wondering if again this is us trying to be the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is come He will lead...I have done a lot of crazy things over the years trying to get closer to God. I have destroyed electronic gadgets, etc. I have made determinations to do certain things and not do certain things. I failed in all most all of them at some point or another. Yet when I allowed the Holy Spirit to lead me away from those things I found it quite easy to lay them down. However, maybe I have not yet plumbed the depth of spirituality to see the need to implement severe ascetic practices into my life. Life seems to beat me up enough as it is. Trouble on the right hand and the left. Maybe its like exercise. If you were a ditch digger you would not need to go to the gym every night. So too for those on the front lines of society staring the enemy in the face on every hand go home each night beat down and in little need of any supplemental lashings. Yet, if I were somewhere insulated from the world and in good health and prosperity and the family was all in good health I may need to implement some measures to keep myself in check I suppose. But after a day of madness on the right hand and the left I can't take a whole lot more spiritual exercise for exercise sake. Hope that makes sense.

Hi RobertYes, your answers are all those that I subconsciously built into the questions! I was tempted to give the same kind of answers as yours to each question, and only just resisted it. The underlying question behind all these questions is has God revealed how we can approach Him or are we left to our own devices?Behind all my questions was the theme "how does the unworthy, undeserving, unfit, approach a Holy God?" and built into the most obvious forms of asceticism the answer seems to be 'by trying harder' or 'paying more'. If we were with revelation this might be the best we could come up with, but now having revelation any of these other possibilities is rejection of God's route, which is by grace through faith.Perhaps we need to include the idea of 'chastisement... without which we are not sons'. The ascetic however seems to create his own chastisement hoping to deserve sonship. We are going to have to head out, I think, to our old stomping ground... the body and its 'subduing' ;-)

I've read both of your comments through but I approach this subject a bit differently. I see Paul beating his body into submission lest after he has preached to others he himself might become a cast away. I see that as a form of ascetism. Then also I see the scripture that says , 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. In other religions the ascetic road is to make them acceptable. Christianity is as you say grace through faith. I do believe however that God has given us tools to aid us in our walk and the road of ascertism I believe can be one of them tools. I don't believe its healthy to live in this mode (if you will). But from time to time to take special precautions, almost like Paul did in his Nazarite vow, I think it can be a healthy part of christianity. I guess it depends on the motivation of the heart. :-)

I see Paul beating his body into submission lest after he has preached to others he himself might become a cast away. This is a good passage to bring up. But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, whenI have preached to others,I myself should be a castaway. (I Corinthians 9:27)Fearsome passage it is, depending on which side of the Calvinism/Arminianism debate you fall. the word castaway is 'adokimos'- usually translated as 'reprobate' or 'rejected'. At the least is would seem to mean 'disqualified.' The passage seems to be saying that Paul beats up his body leaving it black and blue (black eye, etc) and then hauls it off as a slave. I think a clue to understanding this is in the previous passage where Paul states that he does not fight as one "beating the air." That is, he does not try to wear down his opponent by throwing short sided punches that are only intended to make a reaction (this is my attempt to bring my body down apart from revelation). This is a useless tactic unless you are setting the enemy up for a counter punch. Actually is looks quite foolish and is a tactic employed in the hallways of junior high schools by young boys. Constantly acting like they are going to hit one another to gain a quick reflex. Haha, "I made you blink!" Nonsense. Adam Clarke comments on this also:The apostle considers his body as an enemy with which he must contend; he must mortify it by self-denial, abstinence, and severe labour; it must be the slave of his soul, and not the soul the slave of the body, which in all unregenerate men is the case.Ron mentioned that we are back to our old stomping grounds again. So we are. In retrospect I have to say that there has to be a distinction made between asceticism as it is commonly known and biblical discipline. The one is at the least bible based or led of the Holy Spirit. The other is a knockoff of some other religion for the purpose of achieving merit before God. It is no different than the prophets of Baal cutting themselves and leaping on the altar to get their 'Baal' to answer or men casting their firstborn sons into the fires of Molech. If asceticism alone could move God we had been no different than the pagans. Maybe we need to take a look at the reasons as to why folk like Samson, Samuel, and John Baptist took Nazerite vows for life. Actually, Samson was not given a choice in the matter. But why? Was it to bring them into favor with God? I don't think so. I believe that they and even what Paul is saying is that we have to keep our bodily appetites in check and not allow them to rule us. samson is a good point in this. he could have been a deliverer in Israel. BUT, it was not his ascetic lifestyle that allowed him to defeat his enemies. It was the Spirit of the Lord God coming upon him. His vow, it seems to me, was in place so that he would abstain from the pitfalls of certain vice so that he could accomplish the plan of God for his life unabated. Yet, this does not answer everything because the hair could not have a razor come upon it. This has to be a simple obedience thing. Some things to us may seem 'silly' but it is an act of obedience. there was no virtue in Samsons hair any more than there was in John Baptists Camel's hair or Samuel's linen ephod. Washing in the Jordon 7 times was an act of obedience carried out in faith. There was no virtue in the nasty river water. So to this I must ask, what did God say to do? You could fast for 40 days and not gain a thing if God simply to you to take out that earring or get a haircut. You could run through a troop and leap over a wall bloodied and bruised and if God told you to be still and know He is God- you had gained nothing but sin. Just be obedient to God. When He tells you to lay something down- lay it down. To obey is better than all the ascetic sacrifice of a thousand whips, rods, or stone pillows.

here has to be a distinction made between asceticism as it is commonly known and biblical discipline. The one is at the least bible based or led of the Holy Spirit. The other is a knockoff of some other religion for the purpose of achieving merit before God...To obey is better than all the ascetic sacrifice of a thousand whips, rods, or stone pillows.This reminds me of the legendary asceticsm of many monks. In discussing the beatitude, "Blessed are the poor in spirit" author Jim Forest records this story of a monk from the the Egyptian Desert Fathers."But sanctity is not the sumof the would-be-saint's empty pockets. There have been many whose feats of asceticism were displays of pride more then poverty of spirit. Early in his monastic life John the dwarf announced to a brother that he was going deeper into the Egyptian desert, declaring from on now he would live like an angel. Several days later, close to starvation, John knocked on the brother's door. "Who is there?" asked the brother. "John." came the reply. "No, it can't be John," said the brother. "John is now an angel-he no longer needs food and shelter." Only then did he open his door to the chagrined and hungry John. The chastened monk embraced a humbler, more ordinary poverty."

Hi Compton,I hesitate to make this one point as it has been heavy on me for a few days now. it seems to me that in the ordinary course of our Christian lives that life itself and the persecutions that accompany a truly righteous life will go a long way in keeping us where we need to be with God. Paul listed his troubles enough to kill a person. It seems to me that the times when we are not real active in the work or times are 'good' that a danger surfaces. In the case of the Monastics it seems that their "coming out from among them and being seperate..." in the literal sense of the word actually created the need for the afflictions they imposed upon themselves. The world did not lay stripes on their back- so they laid them on themselves. This is truly madness if you think about it. It would be like a football player running into walls to bruise himself up to appear he had been in the game. It's pretense. If we really get about the Lord's work I'm sure we will have plenty to contend with. I was recently terribly ill for about 2 weeks strait and found that it had an effect on me even deeper than fasting. I found that I am so weak and really need to toughen up. What makes a great man as they say, "TROUBLE." Not self induced- but real life trouble. I recall a statement I heard once, "My, I am so proud of my humility." I think about that in response to your post. God help us!

it seems to me that in the ordinary course of our Christian lives that life itself and the persecutions that accompany a truly righteous life will go a long way in keeping us where we need to be with God. I certainly agree with this. I've learned from my wife, that true poverty of Spirit is often accompanied by a joyful heart, that is alive and hopeful in Christ. The desire to suffer, is quite a different thing then the desire to serve. If we really get about the Lord's work I'm sure we will have plenty to contend with. I was recently terribly ill for about 2 weeks strait and found that it had an effect on me even deeper than fasting. I found that I am so weak and really need to toughen up. I always thought this was the purpose of Paul's line of thinking from the passage Dohzman brought up. If there is a "self-induced suffering per se...it may be in the athletic training sense. (Paul didn't want to sit on the bench.)As we've heard, "No pain, no gain." In athletics,the pain of physical suffering is for the ultimate gain of physical victory. On the other hand, I could also suffer physically by eating nothing but Doritos, and drinking only soda for one month! There would be pain and misery for sure...but I would be unfit for service.MC

The desire to suffer, is quite a different thing then the desire to serve.This reminds me of something I read from Oswald Chambers just yesterday...Choosing to suffer means that there must be something wrong with you, but choosing God’s will— even if it means you will suffer— is something very different. No normal, healthy saint ever chooses suffering; he simply chooses God’s will, just as Jesus did, whether it means suffering or not. And no saint should ever dare to interfere with the lesson of suffering being taught in another saint’s life.In Christ,Ron

Thanks for sharing that Ron. I believe that about sums it up.

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, whenI have preached to others,I myself should be a castaway. (I Corinthians 9:27)Yes, this was always our inevitable destination but this discipline is not disconnected with what some have described as 'asceticism'. 'adokimos' literally is 'without approval'. In common use it meant 'not having passed the test' and so 'not a legal coin' 'an disqualified horse' and of persons 'discredited' or 'reprobate'.In what sense then did Paul positively want to be 'accredited' or 'approved'; not in his acceptance with Christ clearly. That would be justification by achievement. This is part of a passage which abounds in metaphors from the public games. He exhorts his readers to run without distraction in order to obtain the prize. These were not the modern olympics with a gold, silver and bronze but the ancient games with a laurel wreath for the winner and nothing for 2nd, 3rd or any other position; the 'crown' of verse 25 is 'stephanos'; the victors' laurel wreath.Paul was very free with athletic illustrations, particularly free if we remember that the Pharisees hated the public games as being one of the main ways that the Greek world had infiltrated their brand of Judaism. (Historically, the desire of upwardly mobile Jewish families to be accepted as 'sophisticated' Greeks included their participation in the games. The competitors in the games performed naked which identifed the orthodox Jews. The 'liberals' began to abandon circumcision and even submitted to painful operations to disguise their circumcision; they wanted to be 'like the other nations'.) One occasion of Paul's use of the games metaphor is in his use of the word 'strive'. 1Cor. 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. Col. 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily. Col. 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. 1Tim. 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses. 2Tim. 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: This is the word from which derive 'agonise' but original focus is not pain but concentration of effort. It used of Christ's fierce concentration of effort in Gethsemene. (Luke 22:44) Again the biblical focus here is of effort rather than pain. The word means to contend for victory with every ounce of strength available. The Colossians reference is a good place to start; Paul is plainly referring to his 'calling' rather than to personal salvation. In none of these references is personal salvation in view but rather 'calling'. 9 times in this one chapter Paul refers to 'the gospel'.The same ideas come through in “Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier. And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.” (2Tim. 2:3-5, KJVS) So putting these ideas together it seems that Paul has his personal calling in view in 1 Cor 9, rather than personal security. This certainly fits the context of 1 Cor 9 which is Paul's refusal to submit to things which would obstruct his calling.The word translated 'buffet' is literally to give 'black eye' but this has the sense of a process rather than a single blow. The word is used in “Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.” (Luke 18:5, KJVS) which plainly does not mean a literal black eye. The purpose of Paul's 'striving' and 'buffeting' is to maintain 'temperate-ness' in all things. The word temperate really signifies 'self-control'. This is the sense in which Paul refers to his body; he is steadily determined that his body will not be in control, but under control. This is a process rather than a single act. His metaphors are vigorous but they are surely not to indicate physcial violence any more than the judge feared the widow would exert physical violence in Luke 18.So we have, I think, a clear target; self-control. But we have no indication here at all of the method of this process. There is no hint here that Paul submitted his body to physical violence but only the metaphor that as an athlete kept his body in a continual state of readiness for race, so Paul, kept his own body under control in readiness for the 'contests' which His Lord had prepared for him. His body would be his servant, never his master; 1Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. Now then, (in consistency with the metaphor) how do we keep our body, which Paul refers to as a weapon of war in Romans in peak preparedness to be instantly available for the Master's use.

Hi Ron,“Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.” (Luke 18:5, KJVS)I am trying to understand here why exactly Paul was wanting to 'weary' his body. The flesh is already 'weak'. I am supposing he means here to weaken the tendency to yield to its own natural lusts. It is 'weak' to do anything contrary to self-preservation. The former passage quoted seems to also indicate that he wanted to keep the body in subjection in order to keep it from rising up somehow and causing him to become disqualified from the race. Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. (II Timothy 2:5 NASB)[/i]A. What can happen that the body might cause us to break the rules? * Could a Samson like phenomena take place?* Could our indulgence into worldly things hurt our testimony?* Could Paul's receiving of offerings have hurt his influence or brought a reproach on the Gospel?* Could those things which we do that are 'worldly' be sanctified in the eyes of the world because we participate in them? * What are the 'rules' for a Minister of the Gospel? Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,... (Hebrews 12:1)I have interpreted this passage to infer that we are actually running a race of obedience and 'sin' is always trying to catch us and knock us down. I see a progression here. Running in obedience to God can be 'beset' when we allow certain weights in our lives that slow us up and give place for the enemy to tempt us and cause us to stumble. As Ron mentioned the Greeks at one point in their history actually ran nude before an all men audience. I once made the statement to a crowd that the knew that the difference between winning and loosing might have been something as simple as a loin cloth. They were going to out run disobedience or else. They were not going to be 'easily' beset by any sin. They had taken measures to lighten up their load so as to run unabated into the perfect will of God. And in so doing- that sin which could have 'easily' beset them is kept at a safe distance because of the metaphorical increase in their power to weight ratio. B. Is laying aside 'weight(s)' pedantically termed asceticism? C. Are the famous last words of a compromising minister, "I can handle this?" D. Is the final issue our grieving of the Holy Spirit as did Samson and our little subtle refusals to rid ourselves of things as the Holy Spirit preemptively warned us?

I am trying to understand here why exactly Paul was wanting to 'weary' his body. The flesh is already 'weak'.I think the emphasis is on the continuation of the process. Continual application to the matter in hand. The widow persisted in her attention to the judge and Paul persisted in his attention to keeping his body as the junior partner in his human-ness. The widow gave the judge no respite and Paul gave his body no respite.This is the thing about the body; give it an inch and it will take a yard. The body was created to be our servant and Paul is determined to make sure it knows it. This is not masochism but discipline. I had an old friend who once testified that whenever he decided to fast his body would instantly indicate all kinds of reasons why the fast should start later and be shorter. He said when he decided to fast for 3 days and his body protested, he would say 'another word from you and will be 4 days'. He reckoned that usually quietened it down. :-D Our body of course is only weak in respect of spiritual capacity. In many other ways it can be very strong and sometimes its strength of purpose and the energy with which it puts its case needs to be addressed.I am aware of Chamber's position on these things, and am one with it. There is a very beautiful F W Faber hymn about the will of God which was a favourite of Tozer. I distrust Faber; the hymn has a verse He always wins who sides with God,To him no chance is lost;God's will is sweetest to him whenIt triumphs at his cost'This is mysticism. Faber wore hair shirts and practised flagelation. God's will is not 'sweetest' when it hurts most; that is masochism. God's will is sweet - period (or full stop as we say over here) it's value is not measured by the pain it causes.

He said when he decided to fast for 3 days and his body protested, he would say 'another word from you and will be 4 days'. He reckoned that usually quietened it downThats funny. All this time I have wanted to say something like this; "keep it up flesh and I'm going to blister your hyde." I just could not bring myself to say it. :-PThis is mysticism. Faber wore hair shirts and practised flagelation. God's will is not 'sweetest' when it hurts most; that is masochism. God's will is sweet - period (or full stop as we say over here) it's value is not measured by the pain it... Again, if I could characterize what seems tome to be counterfeit Spirituality it would no doubt be asceticism + mysticism. Yet would I not throw out the baby with the bath water in either case. I just think that in both cases it leads to a 'do nothing' sort of spirituality. Where genuine spirituality is boots on the ground manifesting the love of Christ among the people. well done thy good and faithful servant was not addressed to those who tarried as important as tarrying is. Getting alone with God and practicing spiritual discipline is of the utmost importance and our ministry flows from there- but it cannot be allowed to stop there. What am I talking about? the whole 'atmosphere' in worship that I talked about yesterday smacks of mysticism? True?