But after this the....

Isn't there a difference between the final estate of the wicked and 'us'?The great white throne has come up in other forums, and there seems to be a doctrine that Christians won't be there. I have trouble with this for two reasons - the dividing of the sheep and the goats, (Matt 25:31 - 46) and, the presence of the book of life, here:Revelation 2012 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Thought it is worth mentioning these here, to help keep perspective.1 Corinthians 1131 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Luke 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:Hi PreacherParsly...!This is a great topic for discussion. I currently believe that there is only one judgment. I'll look up some Scriptures and post back more for discussion later! Thanks for starting this thread!xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:I agree Brother, there is only one judgment for the Christian--the Bema seat of Jesus Christ for rewards:1 Cor 3: 8. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. 9. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. 10. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13. Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.The reason for my belief is above when it says that the Bema judgment seat is a judgment for rewards and all those that go through it are saved:14. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (Gold, Silver & Precious Stones). 15. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (wood hay and stubble): BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.All of the things that he(the believer) didn't do for Christ's glory will be burnt before his eyes as wood, hay and stubble. Those things that he did for Christ's glory he will receive a reward for, but either way he is saved!On the other hand, at the Great White Throne Judgment the Books are opened, the Law and the Lambs Book of Life. Each man that goes to this judgment is judged by the law. His life is weighed in the balance with God's requirements, the law. Unless he/she satisfied them all, 100% of the time he/she is found guilty!Since he/she did not trust Jesus and believe in his death and resurrection, and worship Him as LORD, he cannot be saved and is now described, is now labeled, by the sins he committed during his life by thought or deed- as a fornicator, adulterer, effemenite, etc. etc. etc. At least,that is the way that I see it. None of them (at the Great White Throne) are written in the Lambs Book of Life, and none of them followed the law, by thought or deed, ever. It is an impossibility. Jesus Christ, the God Man is the only one who ever kept the law.One thing that happens at the Great White Throne is that every knee will bow to Jesus as LORD before they are damned to Hell.[The Christians knees are already bowed to Jesus Christ] The have lived their life and have trusted in their own works to be saved. After this judgment they all know that Christ is the only one that could ever follow the law, ever and that they have failed.God bless,Stever

Hi Stever,On grounds of pure English analysis, I don't know how you can suggest that we will be rewarded with 'gold, silver, precious stones'. The original temple was inlaid with 'gold, silver, precious stones'. They were part of the fabric of the building, placed there to glorify God. We are being built into a living temple, in which God Himself can dwell. WE ARE THE Gold, Silver, Precious Stones which help to show off His glory, and Peter puts the whole 'stone' picture in perspective with the rest of the New Testament, including Paul and Jesus, which also calls on Old Testament prophecy. We are also promised in several places in the OT, to be jewels in His crown, again picking up on the 'jewel' picture. This is echoed by Spurgeon in a post I made in the Lounge, (Keep on keeping on) where he says a well-tried saint becomes like a glittering diamond in His crown.This follows the thought in 1 Peter 1 that we must be tried (as by fire) to show forth our like precious faith with Him. This is how we become purer - in the refiner's fire - gold or silver, and precious stones are formed by slow pressure in the depth of the earth - buried.1 Peter 2 (KJV)4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. 1 Corinthians 3 (Young's Literal Translation)10 According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on [it], 11 for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ; 12 and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare it, because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove; 14 if of any one the work doth remain that he built on it, a wage he shall receive; 15 if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire. This makes the most sense in the overall context of the concepts. The fire will show that what is not burnt up is already refined. That's what 'prove' means. The gold, silver and precious stones will survive the flames.JaySaved quoted "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (II Corinthians 5:10).The incentive here, is to cease from sin.1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Ok Preach, You sound like you're having fun and think you have a few answers up your sleeve. Please help me out with this one question(s) ;-).On reading other parts of Revelation and other prophetic books, it is clear there is numeric symbolism as well as language containing numbers. Here's my question: why do we take the 1000 years which is mentioned, as meaning 1000 years literally? Why would this number be literal, and others not?Don't we suspect ever so slightly, this is 'code' for something other than 1000 years as we know them? For instance, in many other verses in the Bible, Old and New Testaments, 'day' means age eg, the 'day of salvation' (2 Cor 6:2)2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 (Young)And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day;

All I am doing is taking what I have been taught and seeing if it is right/wrong and to see what parts make it weak or strong. So far, has anything been clarified for you?

Brother Jeff,Thank you for posting all those verses about the judgment and judgments of the Lord. Seeing them laid out like that, helps show how different God's thinking is, than ours and precious must have been the word of God to the psalmist, delighting in it way over any other 'legal' system or idolatry. These days am being challenged to see Truth more objectively, and this helps. Thanks.

Stever writes:I have a very good Bible study on the Bema judgment seat of rewards, the Judgment Seat of Jesus Christ:THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF JESUS CHRIST1. What is the Judgment seat (Bema) of Jesus Christ? The "Bema seat" (or judgment seat) was an elevated seat, located in Corinth. At this seat in the square, Roman magistrates would sit and administer justice. Athletes may also have appeared here and received rewards for having distinguished themselves. If a person is unsaved and dies in their sin, they will be judged at the "great white throne judgment" following the Millennium. If a person is a born-again believer in Jesus, they will be judged at the "judgment seat of Christ." Salvation is not an issue at this judgment. Their sins have already been forgiven. A person might then ask, how will we be judged? and for what will we be judged? At this judgment, we must give an account of our life and what we did or did not do for the Lord. The believer's service to God will be reviewed and rewarded. For his lack of service or doing certain things, he will suffer loss. We will be held responsible for the things we did in our body. Every hidden thing will be made known. Every secret thing we said will be proclaimed; nothing will be hid. All believers must appear before this judgment seat. So many Christians today think that doing this or that worldly thing is more important than spending the time in God's Word and serving Jesus, witnessing to the lost, feeding the poor, and loving others as ourselves. At this judgment, we should indeed see how unimportant so many things we did really were. All of the extra time that was spent listening to a radio or television, or reading meaningless books, may cause us to lose rewards for eternity. All of the extra time that we wasted and spent doing so many meaningless things, such as running after money, pleasures, cares of this life (those things that were not of Jesus), these may now affect our rewards for eternity. This judgment is a judgment of receiving rewards and suffering loss of rewards. A Christian's true desire should be to hear the words, WELL DONE, THOU GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANT-Mt 25:21. Paul's attitude should be the Christian's attitude. As it is written, YEA DOUBTLESS, AND I COUNT ALL THINGS BUT LOSS FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: FOR WHOM I HAVE SUFFERED THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS, AND DO COUNT THEM BUT DUNG, THAT I MAY WIN CHRIST-Phili 3:8. Indeed, how important some worldly things or pleasures seem to the Christian now, yet how worthless they will be at this judgment. As a Christian, we need to believe the Gospel and live to please Jesus and not ourselves. We need to ask ourselves in the many things that we do, "What fruit for Jesus is in it? Is what I am doing pleasing to the Lord? Will this greatly hurt me by causing a loss of rewards?"2-THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST IS FOR BELIEVERS The judgment seat of Christ is for those who have passed from death unto life through Jesus Christ. Verily, verily, i say unto you, he that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life-jn 5:24. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death-Ro 8:1,2. For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad-2 Cor 5:10. WE SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST (or God’s judgment seat). FOR IT IS WRITTEN, AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. SO THEN EVERY ONE OF US SHALL GIVE (an) ACCOUNT OF HIMSELF TO GOD-Romans 14:10-12. THEREFORE THE UNGODLY SHALL NOT STAND IN THE JUDGMENT-Ps 1:5. FOR THE TIME IS COME THAT JUDGMENT MUST BEGIN AT THE HOUSE OF GOD: AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US, WHAT SHALL THE END BE OF THEM THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF GOD? AND IF THE RIGHTEOUS SCARCELY BE SAVED, WHERE SHALL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?-1 Peter 4:17,18. Finally, know this, HEREIN IS OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, THAT WE MAY HAVE BOLDNESS IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD-1 Jn 4:17. Note the words, in 1 Cor 5:5-THAT THE SPIRIT MAY BE SAVED IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS. 2 Cor 1:14-AS ALSO YE HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED US IN PART, THAT WE ARE YOUR REJOICING, EVEN AS YE ALSO ARE OURS IN THE DAY OF THE LORD JESUS. The day of the Lord Jesus is considered, by many, to be the Rapture.3-WHEN WILL THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST COME? MARVEL NOT AT THIS: FOR THE HOUR IS COMING, IN THE WHICH ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, AND (they) SHALL COME FORTH; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE-Jn 5:28,29. It appears that this judgment shall be held at the time of the resurrection and Rapture. IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? ALL THE DAYS OF MY APPOINTED TIME WILL I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME-Job 14:14. For IT IS APPOINTED UNTO MEN ONCE TO DIE, BUT AFTER THIS THE JUDGMENT-Heb 9:27.4-JESUS SHALL JUDGE It is written, AND HE COMMANDED US TO PREACH UNTO THE PEOPLE, AND TO TESTIFY THAT IT IS HE (Jesus) WHICH WAS ORDAINED OF GOD TO BE THE JUDGE OF QUICK (the living) AND DEAD-Acts 10:42. BECAUSE HE HATH APPOINTED A DAY, IN THE WHICH HE (Jesus) WILL JUDGE THE WORLD IN RIGHTEOUSNESS BY THAT MAN WHOM HE HATH ORDAINED; WHEREOF HE HATH GIVEN ASSURANCE UNTO ALL MEN, IN THAT HE HATH RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD-Acts 17:31. IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN BY JESUS CHRIST-Ro 2:16.5-WHAT SHALL JUDGE US? The judgment shall be ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL-Ro 2:16. The Bible, God's Word, the Law of liberty, will judge us at the judgment. SO SPEAK YE, AND SO DO, AS THEY THAT SHALL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY-Ja 2:12.6-WHY DO THE BORN-AGAIN APPEAR BEFORE THIS JUDGMENT? It is written, THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD-2 Cor 5:10.7-WHAT SHALL BE JUDGED? FOR GOD SHALL BRING EVERY WORK INTO JUDGMENT, WITH EVERY SECRET THING, WHETHER IT BE GOOD, OR WHETHER IT BE EVIL-Ecc 12:14.8-NOTHING SHALL BE HID FOR NOTHING IS SECRET, THAT SHALL NOT BE MADE MANIFEST; NEITHER ANY THING HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN AND COME ABROAD-Lk 8:17. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; NEITHER HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Lk 12:2. FOR THERE IS NOTHING COVERED, THAT SHALL NOT BE REVEALED; AND HID, THAT SHALL NOT BE KNOWN-Mt 10:26. THEREFORE JUDGE NOTHING BEFORE THE TIME, UNTIL THE LORD COME, WHO BOTH WILL BRING TO LIGHT THE HIDDEN THINGS OF DARKNESS, AND WILL MAKE MANIFEST (or make known) THE COUNSELS OF THE HEARTS: AND THEN SHALL EVERY MAN HAVE PRAISE OF GOD-1 Cor 4:5. For NOTHING IN ALL CREATION IS HIDDEN FROM GOD'S SIGHT. EVERYTHING IS UNCOVERED AND LAID BARE BEFORE THE EYES OF HIM TO WHOM WE MUST GIVE ACCOUNT-Heb 4:13 NIV. In addition, know this, THAT EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36. Note: Nothing is secret. Nothing is hid. Everything shall be made known. All hidden things will be made known, even the thoughts of the heart. All things will be uncovered and open, and we will have to give an account. Even every idle word we speak, we will have to give an account for them.9-EVEN WHAT YOU HAVE SPOKEN IN SECRET SHALL BE PROCLAIMED OPENLY THEREFORE WHATSOEVER YE HAVE SPOKEN IN DARKNESS SHALL BE HEARD IN THE LIGHT; AND THAT WHICH YE HAVE SPOKEN IN THE EAR IN CLOSETS SHALL BE PROCLAIMED UPON THE HOUSETOPS-Lk 12:3. Consider, the most secret things you have ever spoken, which no one may know about, even these shall be proclaimed.10-REWARDS---ACCORDING TO WHAT WE DID, WE SHALL RECEIVE REWARDS OR SUFFER LOSS OF REWARDS Jesus receives the reward of the "precious fruit of the earth," the saints. It is written, BEHOLD, THE HUSBANDMAN WAITETH FOR THE PRECIOUS FRUIT OF THE EARTH, AND HATH LONG PATIENCE FOR IT, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN-Ja 5:7. According to what the saints do, they shall receive or lose rewards. It is written, I THE LORD SEARCH THE HEART, I TRY THE REINS, EVEN TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WAYS, AND ACCORDING TO THE FRUIT OF HIS DOINGS-Jere 17:10. God searches the heart; then, according to our ways and the fruit of our doings, we shall receive rewards. TAKE HEED THEREFORE HOW YE HEAR: FOR WHOSOEVER HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN-Lk 8:18. Each person is given a certain number of talents. Some will be good and faithful servants and will multiply what has been given to them. At the judgment, they will be rewarded according to what they have. For EVERY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE MADE MANIFEST (or shown for what it is-NIV): FOR THE DAY SHALL DECLARE IT, BECAUSE IT SHALL BE REVEALED BY FIRE; AND THE FIRE SHALL TRY (or test) EVERY MAN'S WORK OF WHAT SORT IT IS (or will test the quality of each man's work-NIV). IF ANY MAN'S WORK ABIDE (or survives) WHICH HE HATH BUILT THEREUPON, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. IF ANY MAN'S WORK SHALL BE BURNED, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE (but only as one escaping through the flames-NIV)-1 Cor 3:13-15. What a waste, as some shall suffer a loss of rewards for eternity. Consider, there will be people at the judgment who will find that so much of what they did was of the flesh and not of God. It was of the world and not the Spirit. They shall have the great joy of being with Jesus forever; nevertheless, the rewards they might have had for eternity were lost as much of their works did not stand the test of fire. Therefore, take heed, FOR HE THAT SOWETH TO HIS FLESH SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION; BUT HE THAT SOWETH TO THE SPIRIT SHALL OF THE SPIRIT REAP LIFE EVERLASTING-Gal 6:8. Also, as already noted, EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL GIVE ACCOUNT THEREOF IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT-Mt 12:36. For it is written, AND HE SAID UNTO THEM, TAKE HEED WHAT YE HEAR: WITH WHAT MEASURE YE METE (or use) (what you hear), IT SHALL BE MEASURED TO YOU (and even more); AND UNTO YOU THAT HEAR SHALL MORE BE GIVEN. FOR HE THAT HATH, TO HIM SHALL BE GIVEN: AND HE THAT HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE HATH-Mk 4:24,25. WHOSOEVER HATH NOT, FROM HIM SHALL BE TAKEN EVEN THAT WHICH HE SEEMETH TO HAVE-Lk 8:18. Again, we note there will be a gain for some, but a loss for others. Beware of what you hear: for according to the amount you use (or what you hear), you shall receive that much more again; but if you do not use what you hear, even that which you have shall be taken away from you. It might be said, to you that are given knowledge and use it, you shall be given more; but to you that are given knowledge and do not use it, what you have shall be taken away. It is written, WHOSOEVER THEREFORE SHALL BREAK ONE OF THESE LEAST COMMANDMENTS, AND SHALL TEACH MEN SO, HE SHALL BE CALLED "THE LEAST" IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN-Mt 5:19. Again, we appear to have a loss of rewards for those that break a least commandment and teach others to do the same.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI know that this has been a little long, but well worth the time! I have another one three times longer than this, with much more Scripture reference,if any one is interested.God bless,Stever

Dorcas said:On reading other parts of Revelation and other prophetic books, it is clear there is numeric symbolism as well as language containing numbers. Here's my question: why do we take the 1000 years which is mentioned, as meaning 1000 years literally? Why would this number be literal, and others not?2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8 (Young)And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxStever's response:2 Peter chapter 3 is referring to prophecy, the prophecy of the Lord's return:"3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.xxxxxxxxxxxxxMany believe that the Lord will return in 2 days, or two thousand years. The time is short!God bless,Stever

PreachParsly: Hmmm.. somewhat... It would be valuable to me to hear what you'd been taught and how you're redefining it in the light of a clearer understanding from scripture. Many believe that the Lord will return in 2 days, or two thousand years. The time is short!Stever,I see what you have written, but I don't see how it addresses the meaning of my post quoting Peter.