Last Days Doctrine

So i take this is a Pre-trib/mid/post discussion. Here are a few scriptures. (I'll let the scriptures speak for themselves, using highlights (bold,underline, itatlics))**Scriptures are in different versions to show what the greek/hebrew says without quoting all the greek and stuff, if you have a problem with the translation then go to www.blueletterbible.org and check out the orginal language yourself...**Rev. 3:10 (AMP)10 Because you have guarded and kept My word of patient endurance [have held fast the lesson of My patience with the expectant endurance that I give you], I also will keep you [safe] from the hour of trial (testing) which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth. Proverbs 10:30 (KJV)30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.John 17:15 (AMP)15 I do not ask that You will take them out of the world, but that You will keep and protect them from the evil one.Acts 1:9-12 (NASB) 9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11 They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." 12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day's journey away. Zech. 14:4-5 (NASB) 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! 1 Thess. 5:15-16 (NASB)15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Cor. 15:50-54 (NASB)50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. Rev. 10:7 (NASB) 7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. Rev. 11:15-19 (NASB)15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever." 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. 18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great— and for destroying those who destroy the earth." 19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.Rev. 16:17-21 (NASB)17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.John 6:39 (NASB)39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.I hope this is clear enough.If you need commentary for me to connect the dots...i ask that you RE READ IT SLOWER, and compare the scriptures. God bless

The list of posttribulationalists.Jay Adams William AlbrightArchibald AlexanderJ. A. AlexanderHenry AlfordOswald T. Allis S.J. AndrewsMatthew ArnoldFrancis AsburyG. L. E. Bachmann H. A. BakerGlen BarkerDavid BaronFreeman E. BartonDon BashamClarence BassWalter BauerJ. Sidlow BaxterRichard Baxte W. J. Ern BaxterGeorge Beasley I. T. BeckwithJ. A. BengelDonald E. BensonG. Fred BerginLouis BerkhofG. C. Berkouwer J. H. BernardRobert BesanconPeter BeyerhausE. H. BickerstethW. E. Biederwolf R. V. BinghamDel BirkeyT. R. BirksC. Y. BissJ. Allen BlairFriedrich BleekHoratius BonarWilliam BoothDavid BrainerdAl BricknerThomas BrightmanMichael BrigmondJ. A. BroadusCharles BrokenshireJ. W. BrooksJohn BunyanThomas Broughton David Brown Lionel BrownW. G. BrownF. F. BruceWilliam BurghClarke BurkhalterHerbert W. ButtJohn CalvinRobert CameronEdward J. Carnell B. H. CarrollBuddy CarrollJohnny CarrollAlexander CarsonThomas ChalmersRobert ChapmanR. H. CharlesT. K. CheyneThedor ChristliebJohn ChrysostomW. W. ChurchAdam ClarkeDwayne Clymer Edmund P. ClowneyHarry ConnW. J. ConybeareCharles T. Cook Ed CorleyJ. J. Van CosterzeeMiles Coverdale William CowperWiliam E. CoxGerald CronkHenry CraikThomas CranmerDan CrawfordHerman CremerWilliam R. CrewsAlexander CrudenWilliam CininghameDonald Curby Sr.G. H. DalmanHarvey E. DanaLennard DarbyCarles DaubuzAdolf DeissmannFranz DelitzschDoug DernierJoe DooresNorman F. DoutyCharles Duplisey H. A. Ebrard David Ebaugh'sAlfred EdershiemJonathan EdwardsJohn EloitC. J. EllicottE. R. ElliottWilliam J. ErdmanCharles R. ErdmanJ. A. ErnestiM. J. EvansPatrick FairbairnA. R. FaussetHoward FerrinEric FifeC. G. FindlayWoodrow FingerCharles FinneyCharles FisherJohn FoxeWayne FrairAugust FranckeHenry W. FrostGeorge H. FromowAlexander FullerDaniel FullerEugene GarnerChristian GarretW. Ward GasqueOscar de GebhardtC. E. GeorgeDon GiffordJohn GillC. N. GoodwinCharles GoreJames R. GrahamW. M. GreathouseJack GreenS. G. GreenE. GresswellPaul GrubbH. Grattan GuinnesRobert H. GundryDonald HagnerRobert HaldaneHenry H. HalleyFloyd HamiltonR. Laird HarrisEverett HasperJames Hastings Roy E. Hayden C. HeadlamShel HelsleyWilliam Hendriksen E. W. HengstenbergCarl F. H. HenryMatthew HenryEdward Hildebrand Herschel H. HobbsA. A. HodgeCharles HodgeJesse HodgesJ.C. K. von HaufmannKim Holt Edward HorneKenneth HornerF. J. A. HortFrank HaughtonThomas HoughtonW. F. HowardJ. S. HowsonHenry T. HudsonArchibald HughesPhilip HughesJohn HussW. H. IsaacsFrank JacksonPaul G. JacksonM. W. JacobusOrson JonesRobert E. JonesRussell B. JonesAdoniram JudsonKenneth KantzerArthur D. KatterjohnKarl F. KeilS.H. KelloggH. A. A. KennedyE. Sidney KerrKenneth KirklandT. F. D. KlieforthJohn KnoxC. Norman KrausD. H. KrommingaR. B. KubelAbraham KuyperGeorge E. LaddDonald LanceJ. P. LangeHugh Latimer G. V. Lechler R. C. H. LenskiDonald LeroC. S. LewisH. G. LiddellH. P. LiddonJ. B. LightfootJohn LillieDavid LivingstonE. J. LohmeyerC. S. LovettWilliam G LoweJohn LuchiesJames S. LucusLawrence LuncefordC. E. LuthardtMartin LutherJ. Gresham Machen H. R. Mackintosh Bruce N. McPherson Dave McPhersonNorman McPhersonWalter A. MaierC. D. MaitlandS. R. MaitlandDan ManteyJ. C. MarisPeter Marshall Jr.H. L. MartensenWalter R. MartinHenry MartynCotton MatherKenneth MaurerPhilip MauroJack McAlisterRichard McCartneyRobert M-CheyeneJames H. McConkeyAlexander McLarenRaymond McLaughlinS. I. McMillenA. H. McNeileRobert McNeillJohn McNicholsRobert McQuilkinJoseph MedePhillip MelanchtonH. A. W. MeyerA. Berkley Mickelsen Jessie Mills George M. MilnerRobert Moffa John WarwickDon MontgomeryDale MoodyG. F. MooreWilliam Moorehead G. Cambel MorganLeon MorrisRobert MorrisonH. C. G. MouleJames MoultonErnst MuellerGeorge MuellerAndrew MurrayIain H. MurrrayEberhard NestleBenjamin NewtonSir Isaac NewtonJohn NewtonRoger R. NicoleR. L. NissleyDr. Harold J. OckengaW. O. E. OseterleyC. Von Orelli J. Edwin OrrJohn OwenFranics Paget Ian PaisleyJoseph ParkerBlasise PascalJohn G. PatonLeory Patterson J. Barton PayneJames PayneA. S. PeakeDuane PedersonTom PetersJ. B. PhillipsM. Pinault E. J. PooleA. W. PostGerald Primm, Bernard L. Ramm, Leonard S. Reid, Robert G. RayburnDonald ReckartGary ReckartJr. Douglas Reddick Paul Rees Alexander ReeseW. Harry RimmerJ. C. H. RinckA. T. RobertsonM. F. RoosGoerge RoseMarvin RosenthalW. J. RowlandsLarry Joe RuleyR. J. RushdoonyJ. C. RyleWilliam SailerGeorge SalmonEd F. SandersDr. Adolph SaphirJohn ScanzoniFrancis A. SchafferA. Von SchlatterHerman SchultzAnderson ScottRobert ScottThomas ScottJ. J. ScrubyMichael ServetusE. ShackletonJohn T. SharritPeter ShebleyT. T. ShieldsTeignmouth ShoreCharles SimeonA. B. SimpsonEmory Simmons David Smith, George SmithLarry Smith Oswald SmithJimmy SmithsonHenry SoltauA. SouterCharles H. SpurgeonJ. M. Stifler, John R. W. Stott, A.H. StrongMoses StuartC. T StuddRay SummersJ. Grant Swank Jr.H. B. SweteFrancis SteeleIain Tait Richard Taylor W. Therodore TaylorMerrill C. Tenny J. H. ThayerJ. W. ThirtleWilliam C. ThomasD. A. ThompsonArthur ThrushBud TingleC. Von TischendorfJ. H. ToddAlan TomsA. M. TopladyEdith TorreySamuel P. TregellesRobert VanKampenWilliam VareyHenry VarleyGeerhardus VosC. T. WalrondB. B. WarfieldG. Henry WatermanIssac WattsA. S. WayCary N. Weisiger IIIG. Christian WeissCharles WesleyJohn WesleyNathaniel WestHenry G. WestonR. F. WeymouthWilliam WhistonW.S. Whitcombe Frank H. WhiteGeorge WhitefieldWilliam WilberforceRoger WillaimsRobert Dick WilsonG. B. WinerRichard WolffmA. Skevington WoodC. Stacey WoodsPaul WoolleyC. H. H. WrightJames WrightH. L .Lindsay YoungRobert YoungRonald YoungbloodTheodore ZahnSamuel ZewmerUlrich ZwingliNon PreTrib - David Wilkerson

The Resurrection of the Elect ... "Scripture Must Interpret Scripture".And Scripture never contradicts Scripture... From the O.T. to the New. The parable of the Harvest, the Net, the reaping Angels and "the Last Day". Mat 13:37-43 He answered and said to them, He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man; Mat 13:38 the field is the world; the good seed are the sons of the kingdom; but the darnel are the sons of the evil one. Mat 13:39 The enemy who sowed them is the Devil; the harvest is the end of the world Mat 13:40 Therefore as the darnel are gathered and burned in the fire, so it shall be in the end of this world Mat 13:41 The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mat 13:43 Then the righteous shall shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear. Mat 13:47-50 Again, the kingdom of Heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea, and gathered some of every kind; Mat 13:48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. Mat 13:49 So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. . ; and the reapers are the angels. Notice below in Matt.24 & Mark 13 ... again, the "angels" mentioned above are doing the same below, in these Gospel accounts. Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. {Compare Matthew 24:30 to Rev 1:7 Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.} Mark 13:23-27 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you All things. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken, and then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory, and then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Luke 21:25-27 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken, and then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. { The sun, the moon etc. "Before the Day of the Lord", Joel 2:10 & 31 & 3:15~ Acts 2:20 and Isaiah 13:9-13 ~ Ezekiel 32:7 & 8 ~ Matt 24: 29 ~ Mark 13:24 ~ Luke 21:25 ~ Rev. 6:12} 2Thess. 2:1-4 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Joh 6:39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the LAST DAY. Joh 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the LAST DAY. Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY. Joh 6:54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the LAST DAY. Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the LAST DAY. {Dan 12:13 (written to Daniel himself) But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.} So Then we must ask ourselves ... How many times is He coming in Glory, Coming in the Clouds, and Coming with His Angels and as a Thief ? According to the Scriptures... He's only Coming 'Once' with or as, all of the above, and according to all verses, both O.T. & N.T. pertaining to "That Day" ... that is when we are resurrected. At "The First" Resurrection - Rev.20:4-6Those of the first Church, the Jews, knew this from the O.T. and knew that Day, as referred to as "The Day of the Lord" or "The Last Day" (as Martha did in Jn.11:24)- A Day of BOTH "Reward and Judgment", simutaneously. ~ Jesus Coming in “Glory” ~ Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 2Thess. 1:9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Thess. 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. ~ Jesus “Coming in the Clouds”. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Acts 1:10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 1Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ~ Jesus “Coming with His Angels“. Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. ~Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; ~Matthew 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. ~Matthew 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. ~Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Luke 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 1Thess. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 2Thessalonians 1:7-10 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.{verses 3-10 are actually one sentence.} ~ Coming "as a Thief."Matt 23:43, Luke 12:39, 1 Thess 5:2 & 4, 2 Pet 3:10.{Read All of 2Pet.chpt.3} Rev. 3:3 & 16:15One Coming, One Resurrection of the Righteous... at His Coming. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the FIRST resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the FIRST resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. There are only Two resurrections mentioned in the entire Bible. The resurrection of the All the Righteous ~ "the 'First' Resurrection" - Rev 20:4-6.And the Second Death is the after the Millenial Reign - Rev.20:10-14. Not three or four resurrections. Jesus tells us, it is at the "Last Day". 1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain -> { Strong's - #4035 = Leave around or Survive} until the Coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. 1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain -> {#4035 = Leave around or Survive} shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to 'meet' the Lord { As He descends/returns and those who had died previous, coming 'with' Him, vs.15 & Jude 1:14} in the 'air'. And so we shall ever be with the Lord. {He'll and we'll be returning to earth, as we meet "in the air" to reclaim the earth and reign with Him.}

Dear Letsgetbusy,I owe you an apology here.I just re-read your post and saw you had asked for Scripture only.I'm sorry I posted that list, but I immediately thought of the many Classic authors, and also of the Earliest of the Early Church Father's writings on this topic.I have their quotes too, but now that I've re-read your original post, I'm not sure if you want anyone posting the ECFs on this.I wait your reply on that, this is your thread and I want to respect that you originated it and where you want it to go ... and I will also stay with Scripture only, if I post again. What had happened to me was, I once sat at my table, back in '85, because of something Keith Greene had just said back then on this issue, and with just my Bible alone, with cross-references in it and my Strong's concordance, I just stayed there all day, determined to find out, "Why all the controversy ?" and asked the Lord to just "lead me as a little ignorant child", because I was PreTrib and didn't know any other way to believe, but was hearing things from Keith and others at that time and finding Scriptures that made me doubt what I had believed and taught for years prior. But I didn't want 'anybody' to tell me what to believe and wanted only God's Word to speak for itself ... as I now appreciate, you do also. I'm sorry again that I didn't catch that part at my first reading of your post.I sometimes have to read everything a couple of times.Anyhow, what I did was, go from Genesis to Rev. and was determined to write down every single reference to "the last days" and all that entails, and I did, and put every single reference in my notebook. (Talk about writers cramp :-o ). All the while praying and sweating bullets, that maybe I had been wrong for all of those years (and taught it too, to others). The fear was awesome, but the end result of that day was Unbelievabley mind boggling.But anyhow, Now thank God for computers, I have that old list on file. If or when I'm able (physically) to post again, I'll put them up and try to make it more ship-shape topically.I'm sorry again and Thanks ahead for pardoning my mistake.Annie

Wow, what a HUGE LIST, i knew of, about 6 of those people.If Chrisitans are not raptured before the Tribulation, what are they doing during the Tribulation.I truly don't know that much about the whole 'future' and what it entails. But I believe (no scripture)it's just the same as it is today, but 'more so' (due to 'harsh' times ahead). (Witnessing, Making Disciples, and Holding/Standing Firm on THE Faith thru persecution).I was reading a Psalm in a devotion. And this helped me and gave me yet 'another' comfort when looking towards the harsh, tough future we are going thru.Psalm 91:5-10 (NASB)5 You will not be afraid of the terror by night, Or of the arrow that flies by day; 6 Of the pestilence that stalks in darkness, Or of the destruction that lays waste at noon. 7 A thousand may fall at your side And ten thousand at your right hand, But it shall not approach you. 8 You will only look on with your eyes And see the recompense of the wicked. 9 For you have made the LORD, my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place. 10 No evil will befall you, Nor will any plague come near your tent.

JaySaved,I hope you don't mind if I answer this ... It's just that as I posted mine, I saw yours right then.The wrath you quoted is the general wrath on all the unsaved, as seen in other type verses.The Tribulation is not "the Wrath" ... The Wrath starts with the Vials Rev 15:1&7 and 16:1.You asked, what will we be doing during the Trib.Well in Rev. 6 we see the souls of them who had been killed, asking God When He will repay those who killed them, and God says, when the rest of your brothers are killed as you were. Then in Chpt 7 we see a whole company in Heaven. Those are they who had been killed for Jesus.Many will be beheaded and killed for the testimony of Jesus, the rest will be "guarded" in the Greek, and used to "do exploits and win many to righteousness (Daniel)" and "survive" then to be caught up at the First Resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6.The only place that Mid-Trib and Post-Trib folks differ, is in that most overlap the Trumpets with the Vials... which doesn't affect their diffences enough to make it worth much of a disagreement between them.I have lots of friends on all sides. And we have very friendly talks and even joke with each other and it has never split us, but I think an honest query into God's Word on this is healthy.Someone once asked, If I'm wrong, what do I have to lose, but if you're wrong, what will you have to lose.I'd rather be ready for anything (like what Chinese Christians have to go through), because even my PreTrib Pastor buddy preaches about the coming persecution in this country.So if it's only used to just get Strong in the Lord and the Power of His Might and cause us to cleave all the more to Him by Faith ... then we've lost nothing, to be ready for Anything.My personal feeling is that Once the 7th angel sounds his trump ... we are caught up in the air and all the vials are poured out really rapidly.A day of both Reward and Judgment, is all it says from the O.T. to the New.Jesus said, as "birth pains" it will come ... which start off slow at first then increase in frequency and intensity, the closer to the end we come.So "unless those days be shortened, no flesh would survive".There will be those, who have not taken the Mark,but that are not truly Regenerated, that will live on earth during the Millenial reign, obviously, or else, who would be doing all the pro-creating during that time ... won't be us in our Glorified bodies, who rule and reign with Christ for those first 1000 yr.s.I'm hoping I can get Jay's permission to post what the disciples of the Apostle John wrote.They do a much better job than me.God Bless ya.

Jaysaved:Interesting. I am not calling you the devil (lol) but this is the scripture the Devil used to Tempt Jesus.Psalm 91:10 no harm will come to you; no plague will come near your tent. 11 For He will give His angels orders concerning you, to protect you in all your ways. 12 They will support you with their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.Anyway, forgive me if I am straying away from the subject, but I have always wondered why Jesus would keep Christians in the Tribulation, just to call them in the air to meet him, just to bring them right back down.I plead ignorance here, I just don't understand.Thank you for letting me ramble a bit.God BlessHi JaySaved, If that first part of your post refers to what I said about being "guarded" during that time ... that is God's Word there, that I referred to.Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepG5083 thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. "Keep" - #G5083 means "to guard, as a warden, to watch over" and it was the same terminology that John used in his verse "Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."Same exact greek phrasology from the same author of both books. It doesn't mean "get them out and away from ...." ... but in the greek it means to "watch over & guard" ~ A.T. Robertson2nd you asked, "Why are we being "caught up in the air".. ? Because that's what He said would happen. 1Th 4:15-17 For we say this to you in the Word of the Lord, that we the living who remain/survive to the coming of the Lord will not at all go before those who have fallen asleep. Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again First. Then we who remain/survive alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to 'meet' with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be 'with' the Lord.When HE "Descends" He's coming back 'for good', and we will be included in the armies that meet with Him & them(those dead, who get their glorified bodies first) to then take back the earth. Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army. Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.I'm sure the Lord would have more than just "ten thousands" of His Saints, if every righteous man since Genesis on to 'That Day', were all coming back down 'with' Him. We're 'the rest' of the army that joins them in the air."The meek shall inherit the earth"In my book, wherever Jesus IS, that's where I want to be, whether I've gotta die to see Him in Heaven or go through till the end, to see Him Return/Descend/Come Again, etc.etc.

Hey Letsgetbusy, (hey means hi, down-yonder here :) You've brought out some very powerful points, whether you knew it or not.In that other thread today, I gave a website that is so informative and looks at or in the 'right places' of the forming of 'things'... yet her Links and maybe even she for that part, are or may be Pre-Trib. BUT, what they and many other very excellent sites that "watch the world and the Signs of the times" are doing is, Exactly what Jesus commanded us to do ... to 'Watch' the Signs. Beautiful !I was trying to say in that other thread today, that "the revealing" spoken of in Daniel 12, was ONLY for those of that one generation that Jesus said, "would see the fulfillment of ALL these things", that He had just told them would happen and to watch for.That's why I have so many Pre-Trib friends, because they are not so silly, as to think we won't, at the least, see Persecution big time, within our lifetime.And the beauty of it is, and why we never fuss with each other, is because of what was said in Daniel 12. And what Jesus said about "Watch the signs".No matter "What" a person presently belives, if they are open and humble before God and just obeying as He said, and are Watching ... then all they've read in The Word and read on their last days news sites, etc., will be opened to them (revealed) as these actual events begin to take place.What Keith Greene had basically said way back was, "be open to either scenario", so that's what made me interrogate God and His Word on this subject ... I wanted Truth and nuttin' but ,,,, and felt, Only God and His Word, can give 100% innerant Truth.The pre-trib belief only entered the Church back mostly around 1826 and on. Before that, you won't/couldn't find an Author on earth who believed or taught it.I'm a weirdo for documenting and proving things out to the extreme, so I went around the world, so to speak, to find out where these different beliefs came from ... because as Keith said, I want to "stay open".Open for God to show me, Either Way.I'd personally would rather "Get Outta Here", ha ... I guess that's why, after that day at my kitchen table with notebook, I fought at first and said "NO GOD, THIS CAN'T BE." (honestly) and I didn't get a computer or internet, until 2002 ... so only my friends looked at the verses and saw it too. I had no books or anyone to teach me this stuff. I was totally alone with my new found discovery and felt I was the only kook on earth.It wasn't till about 1999 or 2000, that I found out that a whole bunch of folks were out there believing what I was seeing. I couldn't believe there were such people, cuz I had been so totally alone, for the most part, from '85 until about 2000 with what I believed, because of what I saw the O.T. and N.T. were saying on this issue.Never read a Post or Mid Trib book until 2000, so all that I believed by myself, for 15 yr.s really exploded on me, when I began to read more Scholarly-Acedemics type books on the topic.Then the second big explosion in my life, was to get a computer in 2002 and find tons of these post or mid trib folks all over the place .. Ha !T'ain't fun being alone with something for that long. :-? I'd have to say, one of the more Scholarly-Acedemically better of those sites is ...http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html#posttribHe's got the ECF, the "Origins" of the belief, etc. etc.Like I said, Mid-Trib doesn't bother me, as long as they know that "we are gathered at His Coming" and don't have two comings.Whether they want to overlap seals, trumpets, and vials, doesn't matter worth the discussion.We'll find out soon enough.But the main point that I wanted to say, is that the point you brought out, that those Pre-Trib sites that give out "News" reports, etc. to confirm the signs of the times, are sites I frequent regularly. But they give out good daily news.They're in my favorites, so if I can dig-em out, I'll post them here. I think one was Harpazo, or something like that.It isn't "old age" that's killed my memory, but a disease ... I'm sorry ... But Thanks for Bearing with me.His Love to you letsgetbusy !Annie

First, I really enjoyed both YeshuaismyGod and Eli's posts too, Very much ,,, Thank you for them. Very edifying.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Yours in bold - mine not.Annie,I need to do more work on this topic anyway, but I'd like you to agree or disagree with the meaning of the term 'tribulation'. Jesus tells the disciples, 'in the world, you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world' (John 16:33). Oh Lord Yes. Ain't that the truth Sister.This clearly tells me that Jesus Himself, through faith in Him, is going to help me overcome the world (1 John 5:1 - 6). Also, in Ephesians, there is a recurring theme of 'children of disobedience' who are going to face 'the wrath to come'. In these texts (and probably others too) 'tribulation' is attributed to the adversary, and 'wrath' is attributed to 'God'.Right on Sister. The tribulation is the "wrath of Satan" and the wrath of God is the Vials Rev 15:1&7 and 16:1.About us "overcoming the world" as you've said here, Yes Mam, that is why it is mentioned so much in Rev. 2 & 3 of the characteristics of "The Overcomers" .... Amen.Those who God chooses to "survive and remain" till His coming ... yes, He will "guard". Not meaning that it will be a piece of cake, because that word "survive" is pretty self-explanatory. "The Survivors" in Real Time/End Times :-) . Tough Bunch ! And God's MERCY knows what we can take (With Him), and knows which should go which way. He is full of Mercy toward us - Always.If Christians are still around when wrath is being poured out on children of disobedience, they have nothing to fear from God, only, to be prepared for tribulation from Satan - who has been causing tribulation most especially since Jesus came (and believers lined up with Him).Amen !!!. Sounds like Overcomer talk to me Sister ~ Alleluia.Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keepG5083 thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."Keep" - #G5083 means "to guard, as a warden, to watch over" and it was the same terminology that John used in his verse "Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."Same exact greek phrasology from the same author of both books. It doesn't mean "get them out and away from ...." ... but in the greek it means to "watch over & guard" ~ A.T. RobertsonCan you explain why, then, when the 'great tribulation' is discussed, a cloud of confusion seems to descend and people (believers) talk as if God is going to send the wrath on them, when there is no evidence for this?Pretty much, just "American Christians" are like this. Or those just living in the "free world".Also, it might be interesting to notice, that even during the Vials, that they are poured out on or effect "ONLY those who have worshipped the beast, taken His number or worshipped his image." Meaning, there will be those here still on earth, who have not done any of those three things.I listen to International radio and I hear people, who I know are not "fully" Christian, who say, "Under no circumstances, will they take the mark or worship the beast.", and they're dead serious. But though they're not Christian,Christians, there will be those here on earth, obviously, who stay in their flesh, and come to Jerusalem, to worship the REAL Christ, besides the 1/3 of Israel, that are Chosen for Salvation "at" His appearing.They are the ones who are not given a Resurrected Body, but will be alive to live through the Millenial reign.What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers? Sad question, literally. Makes my heart sink, literally also.What's made it difficult, is that it WASN'T DIFFICULT prior to about 1826, as was said earlier on in this thread. No one taught pre-trib before that period. But since that "OUT" has been grabbed at, by the majority, "That's" what's made it "difficult" for folks to face. With Darby and Scoffield, etc., shelling out that doctrine and spreading it to America,,, well, folks just grabbed for it and so that by 1909, No other teaching was allowed at The Prophecy Conferences. Very sad.

I think something AMAZING that God gave me was the Seven Bowls and the Seven Trumpets are EXACTUALLY THE SAME. They are the SAME events, just described differently. 1 and 2 don't look alike (last time i remember) but 3-7 sound almost word for word the same.I'll leave you all with that... G-d bless

Have you ever been ready to hit the hay for the day, and suddenly a bunch of Scripture comes rushing into your head, and with an urgency ?It was asked above in that thread/post ... What is difficult or wrong or confusing about this simple separation between the two main reasons for distress which may be faced on earth by unbelievers and believers? Well, that question stuck in my head/heart/spirit or whatever, like a knife, and I couldn't shake it ... then suddenly the Scriptures starting coming to mind and I shook at the thought of it (not in fear - but at the thought, that brother would betray brother or 'friend', etc.)These were the verses that came ....Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And 'then shall many be offended', and 'shall betray one another', and shall hate one another. Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues/churches (G4864), and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. These are why people are afraid. It's one thing to think, "of course the 'world' will hate us and turn on us", but when Jesus says that it will be some of the "Church" that "turn you in", that is too heart crushing to even come near the mere thought of that happening. It's beyond the mind's ability to comprehend or grasp.As Paul and Peter said, as long as you obey the laws of a land, are not violent, and in your own life, are a pacifist .... then God will Bless you with the parts above I did not put in Bold font. If you are persecuted "just" for your beliefs and NOT because you are violent, then that is dead wrong on their part for doing so.We need the faith of Paul and the other's to get through the horror of what is coming upon this world. Almost every single O.T. prophet was killed and the same for the Apostles and Lord only knows, how many from the First Church on, right up until today, in other countries right now.I will die for Christ and His Truth ... hear that right now.And do not feel as some crazy "patriots, etc." out there, that I should have or use a gun or anything like that, to stop what's coming. It's NOT Scriptural to be a "zealot"... like Barrabus or try to "take over the country". Hog-wash !Jesus went to the slaughter as a Lamb, and so should we, if it ever comes to that.What's coming has been foretold by our Loving Savior and King, and you folks decide "who" you will follow. Christ or a man ! Compromise on that decision, for Temporary 'safety' and wind up losing Eternal Life.Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Every ministry under the sun, except for those that we've all talked about, the feel good ones, are saying we will see persecution and judgment ... even in last month's Billy Graham Decision magazine, he wrote about the coming judgment, and he's an easy going sorta guy.And Richard Wurmbrand, who this site carries, warned of the coming persecution to the American Church !That's why I liked that devotional by Oswald Chambers, that I posted one day. I'll have to look up what date that was, about "Jesus, commited Himself to no man, because He knew what was in the heart of man". Amen to that !It was one of the best writings about that Scripture verse I've read.If brother betrays brother, JUST to protect themselves, or just because they just don't agree with someone else's "thoughts only", then woe unto them ... that "is" eternal damnation for them.I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, but God has laid this on my heart, just as strong as my Love for my own flesh and blood.The absolute need, for the "Fervent Love" for the Body, is what will make us decide, what we will be willing to do, no matter what happens. Look at Corrie ten Boom's testimony, from beginning to end, to understand what I'm trying to say with this post.Put His Body First, above yourself, in all things, because it IS HIS BODY, and all your future decisions should be brought to GOD, with 'that fervent Love' always in heart & mind.Jesus said, My Kingdom is NOT of this world.Pray hard for the Body of Christ, through-out the world. And Love Them.That will determine your Eternal destination.Be a Daniel.Bless those with a heart for Him and Him only.Annie

Hi Annie,I see you've been busy answering my questions. Thanks. And WOW what a last post you've made!This whole thing about being betrayed by one's own household has been nagging at me, ever since I realised it was the chief priests who led the elders and the Pharisees in the cry of 'Crucify'. This is also why John was there at the cross with Mary....John 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. Later, I realised that of course (no pun intended ;-) ) because Mary's cousin Elisabeth was married to a priest, not only John the Baptist but John the disciple (who was related to the High Priest's family) were related to Jesus. So He was betrayed by His own. Judas was just a very important pawn who finally made a bad choice, but, which was completely in keeping with scripture. (Was he Simon the Pharisee's son?)Completely off topic, this means that after Judas died and the eleven were with Jesus when He gave the great commission, there were TWELVE APOSTLES - the Great Apostle - the Chief Cornerstone - there, those who had been together from the start. New Jerusalem foundation? 8-)I said it was off topic. Just wanted to share the thought. :-o

Ha ~ God has sure given you a brain, huh ?Thank God, and that you are using it for Him.I found that Oswald Chambers Devotional that I mentioned above and I love how He did it, without making people "cynical" or 'suspicious', yet nailed Christ's meaning to a tee.Oh, and I added a devotional on Adversity that's good. On that site, they give other Topicals, on the left side, that are of the same topic that you're on.God Bless ... TTYL.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~July 30 The Teaching of Disillusionment Jesus did not commit Himself to them . . . , for He knew what was in man —John 2:24-25 Disillusionment means having no more misconceptions, false impressions, and false judgments in life; it means being free from these deceptions. However, though no longer deceived, our experience of disillusionment may actually leave us cynical and overly critical in our judgment of others. But the disillusionment that comes from God brings us to the point where we see people as they really are, yet without any cynicism or any stinging and bitter criticism. Many of the things in life that inflict the greatest injury, grief, or pain, stem from the fact that we suffer from illusions. We are not true to one another as facts, seeing each other as we really are; we are only true to our misconceived ideas of one another. According to our thinking, everything is either delightful and good, or it is evil, malicious, and cowardly. Refusing to be disillusioned is the cause of much of the suffering of human life. And this is how that suffering happens— if we love someone, but do not love God, we demand total perfection and righteousness from that person, and when we do not get it we become cruel and vindictive; yet we are demanding of a human being something which he or she cannot possibly give. There is only one Being who can completely satisfy to the absolute depth of the hurting human heart, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord is so obviously uncompromising with regard to every human relationship because He knows that every relationship that is not based on faithfulness to Himself will end in disaster. Our Lord trusted no one, and never placed His faith in people, yet He was never suspicious or bitter. Our Lord’s confidence in God, and in what God’s grace could do for anyone, was so perfect that He never despaired, never giving up hope for any person. If our trust is placed in human beings, we will end up despairing of everyone. http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=07&day=30~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ August 2 The Teaching of Adversity In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world —John 16:33 The typical view of the Christian life is that it means being delivered from all adversity. But it actually means being delivered in adversity, which is something very different. "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. No evil shall befall you, nor shall any plague come near your dwelling . . ." ( Psalm 91:1,10 )— the place where you are at one with God. If you are a child of God, you will certainly encounter adversities, but Jesus says you should not be surprised when they come. "In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." He is saying, "There is nothing for you to fear." The same people who refused to talk about their adversities before they were saved often complain and worry after being born again because they have the wrong idea of what it means to live the life of a saint. God does not give us overcoming life— He gives us life as we overcome. The strain of life is what builds our strength. If there is no strain, there will be no strength. Are you asking God to give you life, liberty, and joy? He cannot, unless you are willing to accept the strain. And once you face the strain, you will immediately get the strength. Overcome your own timidity and take the first step. Then God will give you nourishment— "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life . . ." ( Revelation 2:7 ). If you completely give of yourself physically, you become exhausted. But when you give of yourself spiritually, you get more strength. God never gives us strength for tomorrow, or for the next hour, but only for the strain of the moment. Our temptation is to face adversities from the standpoint of our own common sense. But a saint can "be of good cheer" even when seemingly defeated by adversities, because victory is absurdly impossible to everyone, except God. http://www.rbc.org/utmost/index.php?month=08&day=02