Third Day Church Arising

Just wondered if anyone has any information or thoughts about the third day movement. Not particularly impressed (in fact somewhat disquieted). Thanks.

hi EverlastA search for ‘third day church rising’ took me to an article byChuck D. PierceSearching on Chuck D. Pierce took me toGlobal Harvest Ministries http://www.globalharvestministries.org/Scouring that site produced a list of key personnel involved athttp://www.wagnerleadership.org/These names will probably mean much more to you than to folk this side of the water. While I don't believe in 'guilt by association' travelling companions are usually some kind of indication of direction.

I looked on the global harverst ministries site and found this statement:Peter Wagner is the President of the Global Harvest Ministries and Chancellor of the Wagner Leadership Institute. Established in 1998, the Institute equips men and women for leadership positions in churches and translocal ministries. It is designed especially, but not exclusively, to meet the needs of leaders who have become a part of the New Apostolic reformation.Which led me to this statement about the "New Apostolic reformation":The New Apostolic Reformation is an extraordinary work of God at the close of the twentieth century, which is, to a significant extent, changing the shape of Protestant Christianity around the world. For almost 500 years Christian churches have largely functioned within traditional denominational structures of one kind or another. Particularly in the 1990s, but with roots going back for almost a century, new forms and operational procedures began to emerge in areas such as local church government, interchurch relationships, financing, evangelism, missions, prayer, leadership selection and training, the role of supernatural power, worship and other important aspects of church life. Some of these changes are being seen within denominations themselves, but for the most part they are taking the form of loosely structured apostolic networks. In virtually every region of the world, these new apostolic churches constitute the fastest growing segment of Christianity.Does anyone here have any more insight to what it is all about?

Here is a bit more:http://www.agetwoage.org/ApostolicJustFacts1.htmIt appears to be a balanced treatment...

See, my very basic understanding is that the general belief of the third day church arising group is a kingdom now doctrine. They believe that we are in the third millenium, or the seventh millenium (looking at the creation of man and how a day could be a thousand years). That the church will overcome the world and at the end of the thousand years Christ will return. One of the particular churches here in Missouri has some very questionable practices, at least to me. You are required to tithe 10%, which I understand, however, they know how much you make because you are required to tell them, then if you don't give your 10% they call and ride you about it. Also you are not allowed to miss any function, ie Sunday service, Wednesday service and any other Bible studies in between. If you consistently miss, even with an extremely valid reason (sickness or financial restrictions--you need to work) they will eventually kick you out of the church. Also they preach the "give so you can get more" aspect of tithing and offerings. They urge (press, push, require) that you give more so that you may be blessed...and if you are not blessed; either financially, spiritually, etc., then you have not given enough. Just my thoughts....

Yup, I think you're right and I think they are wrong. Its another version of the 'latter rain' teaching I think.

I have 2 churches in the area that I am in that are leaning toward the doctrine Everlast describes, especially the push toward money. If you don't tithe you can't teach, or be involved in ministry. They also call you to see why you are not giving or why you have not shown up to services. I challenge them to show from the scriptures that tithing is a new testament requirement. It is part of the law, just as circumsion. We need to be careful, lest we teach as commandments the doctrines of men. If you give because a man commanded and not because the Lord has laid it on your heart, then your reasoning is wrong. The fear of men brings a snare. When we trust what men say over the word of God, we begin get on shaky ground, no matter what form of belief we are in. Seek Christ! Any other thoughts on this would be appreciated.Philip

I agree with Philip, that when we trust man over God then we are definitely on shaky ground. This particular church and organization is also involved with "prophetic" ministry. I am very leary of anyone who calls themselves a prophet, says the "Lord says" and expects for it to be followed. I happened to witness a "prayer meeting" last night by people of this organization...all I could do was pray that these people would truly see the Lord, and not some man who proclaims himself to be a prophet. I think perhaps there needs to be more preaching and teaching of using wisdom and discernment when encountering those who appoint themselves as bishops, apostles, prophets, or what have you; so as not to be easily led down the wrong path. I can also say that this group was not overly open in their motives...see, they met at our church building last night...but they were only given permission to use our building because our Senior Pastor was under the impression that they were simply meeting for a prayer workshop. They did not come up front and say that they were of the third day church arising teachings...this is being deceitful and dishonest. I feel that if they are truly of a biblical and scriptural basis...then there is no need to omit certain important details. Our pastor would not have given permission had he realized their intentions. I find it very sad when people can not be up front about what they are doing. To me that only confirms that they are not in God's will.

Everlast, YOu wrote:" I can also say that this group was not overly open in their motives...see, they met at our church building last night...but they were only given permission to use our building because our Senior Pastor was under the impression that they were simply meeting for a prayer workshop. They did not come up front and say that they were of the third day church arising teachings...this is being deceitful and dishonest. I feel that if they are truly of a biblical and scriptural basis...then there is no need to omit certain important details."I had never heard of this third day arising thing before this thread, but just wanted to give some insight on what you said above. That is, that not being overly open in your motives is deceitful and dishonest. This made me think about evangelism. Do we come right out in the beginning of talking with someone and very clearly and plainly say, "I am a Protestant Christian and I am about to share with you the good news about Jesus Christ and the bad news about Hell."Maybe you do, but I think you'll agree with me that there's many legitimate Christians out there that are not so up front in their approach. Not that they're hiding something or intentionally being dishonest, it just seems unnecessary and even awkward to present things in that manner in most situations. Now if they ask you a direct question and you lie, then that's obviously dishonest. Or what if you were a preacher and you got invited to preach at a church that you new was tied to formalism and was very cold. Inside you would likely have a motive to edify them and build them up. And you might go in knowing that you might be speaking on some things that they are not really comfortable with (like the fire of GOd, etc.). THings they might label "charasmatic." Would you be dishonest if you didn't come right out in the beginning of your sermon and declare "In this sermon I am going to teach you some charasmatic teachings" (or something to that effect)? See what I am saying? What do you think?

"third day"I've personally heard it called "Third Wave," never "Third Day." Some also refer to it as the "apostolic and prophetic movement" or the "neo-charismatic movement." I am not a fan of the movement, as they have some very shaky teachings regarding many things. I believe very much in the apostolic, and modern day apostles and prophets, and that God is surely doing something throughout the world. However, I am not a fan of this movement, and when I hear individuals being fans of them... I tend to be rather skeptical of that individual.

Hi Todd,In resonse to the questions you raised :... but I think you'll agree with me that there's many legitimate Christians out there that are not so up front in their approach. Not that they're hiding something or intentionally being dishonest, it just seems unnecessary and even awkward to present things in that manner in most situations. Now if they ask you a direct question and you lie, then that's obviously dishonest. Would you be dishonest if you didn't come right out in the beginning of your sermon and declare "In this sermon I am going to teach you some charasmatic teachings" (or something to that effect)? I would like to think that if you are the Pastor of a church and are going to either invite someone in to speak or supply the use of your facilities that the onus would be on you (the Pastor) to check out their credentials, find out there beliefs and ask the tough questions even if they are awkward. Is it not that Pastor's responsibilty to be the Sheperd of his flock and I might add, to be aware of deviating doctrines?That's not to say that some may not be forthcoming about what they intend to do as may be the case mentioned here in this thread. With the amount of bad theology around I would think that you couldn't be careful enough.Just my two cents.

I agree with crsschk that it should be the pastors responsibility to check things out, however, if the group has a front, if you will, that checks out as being legitimate then that can present a problem. They came in as a Missouri Prayer conference (The United States Strategic Prayer Network 50 State Tour, to be more exact; also as the Missouri Prayer Mission) had a brochure and everything...none of it mentioning the third day teachings and beliefs. So as it was presented it appeared presentable and acceptable. I guess it is too much to expect a little honesty even among the "Christian" community anymore. Sooo...just my two cents. :-)

I suppose I have to put in 3-4 cents as the US cent is worth a bit more than the Australian cent. On the Wagner Leadership page it reads; It's time to cast a bigger vision, and The Spirit of God is releasing new creative and innovative ways to increase the Kingdom of God on earth. Didn't the serpent tell Eve about a new and innovative way to deal with God ?Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Gen 3:5 for God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. Isn't this pretty much what is happening today.I read about Mr Wagner quite a lot of years ago and even then his "new" theology stunk. Credit God with your own theology and people will listen, unless of course they check out what the true word of God says, but that can be overcome by courses that will teach you everything without opening the Bible.2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 2Ti 4:4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables. There's a lot of good pages on the net about different doctrines but I seem to get stuck on them instead of asking for guidance in prayer and studying the word of God. But I'll chuck two more in here among the ones already mentioned.http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwaveteachings.htmlhttp://www.discernment-ministries.com/2003JulyAugust.pdfIt looks as if all these "new things" have something in common somewhere along the "time".1Jo 1:1 That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life 1Jo 1:2 (and the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare unto you the life, the eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us); 1Jo 1:3 that which we have seen and heard declare we unto you also, that ye also may have fellowship with us: yea, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ:We don't need a new thing or teaching, there is no life in it. Personally I'm very sceptical about anything "new" that is presented as the "other way". There is only one way and that is Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son.Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. Some more from the word of God.Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. :roll:

Everlast, This is very interesting to me so I am hoping you will be willing to indulge my curiosity. Are you claiming that a group of Christians came and used "your" church building under the "disguise" of the Missouri Prayer conference and intentionally tried to deceive you and were intentionally dishonest? What specific things did they teach that bothered you? You wrote:"Our pastor would not have given permission had he realized their intentions."Did he say this? What exactly did he say?What were their intentions? Did they not talk about prayer? Did they include some controversial teachings about prayer that you (and/or your pastor) are uncomfortable with? Did you talk to them about it (the actual people)? Did you try and understand their position on these teachings? If so, what is there position? What are the controversial teachings? If they came under "the front" of the Missouri Prayer conference, is there no accountability within the leadership of this conference that they wouldn't know about these teachings? If we are going to get into blaming, whose to blame here? Are you saying that these people also intentionally deceived the leadership of the conference? Very curious.

jouko, you wrote:"Didn't the serpent tell Eve about a new and innovative way to deal with God?"Yes, and William Carey and Martin Luther (to mention a couple) told the church the same. Here's my two cents on that thought. Throughout the history of the church, God has contstantly done new things (which seems to be a process of bringing it back to where He wants it). When they are first introduced, they receive overwhelming amounts of critisizm. But these these contoversial men go on, knowing that they are accountable to God and not man. Challenging church tradition is always going to be controversial.Quote:"We don't need a new thing or teaching, there is no life in it. Personally I'm very sceptical about anything "new" that is presented as the "other way"."I wonder if you would have supported William Carey as he set sail for India. WOuld you have joined Luther as he broke with church tradition and led a "new way"? I am always trying to do this but have never challenged you before, so here goes:Would you be willing to get specific about a teaching or doctrine that bothers you and deal with it objectively and fairly? To take one at a time and see what we can come up with? Be willing to be patient and do some sound research? I will let you pick the teaching. If you are up for it, go ahead and start a fresh thread in the appropriate place (probably "Scriptural Debates" or "Doctrines of the BIble"?). Looking forward to the sharpening process.

Thank you todd. First of all, if I in any way offended you or anybody else I want to apologise as it wasn't my intention. The comment was a personal comment on something I have experienced not too far back and due to it I now have no congregation I call home, neither has my family. I based the reasoning and action behind our decision on the word of God and due to it couldn't agree with the practices being introduced into the church, also it wasn't a whimsical action but a decision based on over many years. We now feed ourselves and others on video sermons and from sermons here at Sermonindex which complement our reading and studies from the word. I have always maintained an attitude that no matter who it is that preaches it has to agree with the Bible. Australia is not my country of birth neither my better halfs which is Finland. The thought of going to Australia might have started as an adventure but has turned into something else. I believe I'm doing work for the Lord in a way He and no one else has organised and how do I personally know that, I have peace in my soul which you might not believe nor like as proof. In no way do I compare myself to any of the great men of the past and today but I do want to be faithful to His word.I don't believe that the gentlemen you mentioned did anything "new" but what the word commanded. William Gurnall stayed where he was but still did great work. Luther himself exhorted christians to be diligent in following Christ and not man and Carey did what the word says about taking the gospel to the ends of the earth.Both countries where I lived quite long have a state church, Lutheran, but that doesn't make the members christians neither does being a Baptist etc.As for being controversial or challenge church traditions my opinion is this. It doesn't prove anything except that you have an opinion about something, and unless it can be proven from the word of God to be true it has no value except maybe an awakening which might make you research and find the truth. Many of my friends in Finland,Sweden and Australia are deceived into thinking that by being a member and following the traditions of their church and being a good person will eventually lead them to a glorious life in heaven. I dispute that as I'm sure you do. As for supporting, I support this site and anything worthwile that will honour the will of God and give him the glory. Do you support Sermonindex ? If you do, well done and many a blessing to you, if not, you should think about doing just that. As for Everlasts post, a wolf doesn't advertise his/her intentions but we are commended to be aware of them if that is what it was at her church. Carter Conlon preaching Wolves is worth listening to. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=123&min=80&orderby=titleA&show=20 Mat7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. As for debates, yes I will start a debate on the subject of "A New Thing" and please don't judge me for my language, english isn't my mothertongue so to speak especially not in the biblical sense but I'm learning.

Just a continuation on my previous post. I received some mail the other day from I gather Koorong bookshop about Open Heavens Over Australia. It's a conference about Moving in the Spirit & Power of the Third Day. "..on the third day He will raise us up to live in His presence."The participants will receive from the 'Great Heart' Himself. Furthermore, 'New gifts and anointings will be imparted, especially in the workshop sessions! And there is no question, we will all leave the conference on a higher level - empowered to move in the miraculous! Pastors and leadership teams don't miss the opportunity for impartation in the miraculous - Wednesday morning in the Pastor's Conference.One of the leaders Todd Bentley is described as 'a new breed' healing evangelist with a strong prophetic anointing. In a meeting in Malawi Todd received an open vision of Jesus clothed in a scarlet robe walking among the new believers. Wherever Jesus was standing, dozens of people in theat area would fall under the power of the Holy-Spirit. The presence of God came as a glory cloud and hovered over the crusade grounds.Marc Dupont speaks prophetically into individual churches, regions, or into the larger body of Christ and moves in impartation in three basic areas, spiritual gifts, the Father's heart, and healings.John Arnott of Toronto writes. "I have known Marc Dupont for many years and know well of his pursuit of 'open heavens'. He accurately predicted the great outpouring of the Spirit in Toronto and has helpful and encouraging insight for all who seek more of God.Sue Rinaldi is described as a modern day Levite with a refreshing expression from her heart.David Orton is dedicated to renewal across the wider church. He also carries a prophetic word for breakthrough in the Western Church. The vision for this conference is: To experience an 'open heaven' in the miraculous and prophetic.The Purpose:To release a miraculous and prophetic anointing into the Australian Church.To call the 'Third Day Church' into a new level of the presence and ways of God.*Saturday night closing rally - a major youth event - bands, miracles, and prophecy with Todd Bentley.This post fits in this thread and A New Thing.You decide if we need this new thing called the Third Day Church and if it is biblical.

The participants will receive from the 'Great Heart' Himself. Furthermore, 'New gifts and anointings will be imparted, especially in the workshop sessions! And there is no question, we will all leave the conference on a higher level - empowered to move in the miraculous! Pastors and leadership teams don't miss the opportunity for impartation in the miraculous - Wednesday morning in the Pastor's Conference.Of course, you won't be able to experience all these thigns without attending the conference... which I imagine costs. Sounds a lot like the Catholic priests and their selling of indulgances. But, instead of granting the forgiveness of sins and setting souls free from purgatory, they promise to bless you with all sorts of anointings.Sue Rinaldi is described as a modern day Levite with a refreshing expression from her heart.Just what in the world is a "modern day Levite?" I find it sad all these new "anointings" that all these "prophets" have to make up. I find it hilarious none of them ever come under the "Samson anointing." Why does it seem that of all the anointings I have heard that are being restored to the Church, "The Samson Anointing" never seems to be realeased.. But then again, I guess it's hard to fake being strong beyond measure. However, if they were to speak of such an anointing, they would probably spiritualize it and say "it is an anointing of destroying strongholds!"

The salvation of the Lord secures a dwelling place for Himself, a setting in which He is able to reveal Himself, a secure and safe environment in which He invites a people to come to rest as He is at rest. This is Zion; this is the Church. This is also the foundation for a priesthood which stands serving Him who created Heaven and earth.To claim the remotest compatibility, the slightest affinity between this and what goes on in some modern settings in the name of spiritual gifting and ministry gifts takes away the breath of a thinking man. To assert that the spirituality displayed, spirituality it is, in many of these conferences belongs to the prophetic realm makes a praying man cry. To proclaim the name of Christ to be the cover and mark of most of these events makes a sound man sick.If this is Heaven I do not want to go there. I long for the clarity of the Crystal Lake. My heart yearns for the tree of Life. My being is attracted to the waters of the River of Life. The waters in this third wave is muddy, polluted, and cannot serve as a reflection of what is to be expected in the realm of Eternity.It has to be said, and I cry as I write, we are being deceived once again by leaders who aspire for prominent positions, who try to gather much and build their fame on numbers. The same tragic story repeated over and over again. The time which we live in is marked by the Greek word husteros – the extreme, that which is far away, the end time. And it is certainly displayed in that which goes on in the name of renewal and reformation. Everything taken to the extreme. Everything taken to its maximum, and beyond. Twisted, distorted, hysteria. The Father still invites to take part of His rest. A priestly ministry will even today focus on this rest. A priestly ministry has to offer this rest. This is at the heart of the Lord. This belongs to His, for ever new, ministration.

To assert that the spirituality displayed, spirituality it is, in many of these conferences belongs to the prophetic realm makes a praying man cry.Well said lwpray. It has to be said, and I cry as I write, we are being deceived once again by leaders who aspire for prominent positions, who try to gather much and build their fame on numbers. The same tragic story repeated over and over again.Indeed. But, has this not been so for quite some time, even from the days of the first apostles? The apostle Paul prophesied such concerning the church of Ephesus, and the apostle John said that in one church there was somebody there who enjoyed being first.Yet once again, there will come a shaking of the heavens and the earth. One day everything will be tried by fire. That which can be shaken shall not remain. That which can be burned will not prevail. As Ravenhill once said, all roads lead to the judgment seat.