Luke 22:43 and there appeared an angel unto Him from Heaven strengthening Him

sermonindex Aug 12, 2005

a man from South Dakota spoke at a church yesterday night. He said he was given the priveledge to go up to heaven. and while he was in heaven, he saw that specific scene that is mentioned in Luke 22:43he said the angel was the archangel Michael and Michael was in tears for Michael didn't understand why our Lord had to go through that pain. Apparently there are things of salvation that are not revealed to angels, but that believers are given a priviledge to. another scene the man was describing was also how he saw the scene at the sanhedrin and Michael was there with Gabriel and another angel. And Michael was there weeping again besides the Lord holding his head, while Gabriel and the other angel were standing afar off. And, so the Michael states all the Lord would have to do is give out a command, and he would execute every one there (Michael, as the man described, had a flaming sword in his hand). And so, as this is going on and all three angels are sorely weeping, it was as if God's hands come sweeping down to take the angels away. And Christ explains to this man, why it was so was that, Michael and the other two angels were close to having the other 1/3 of the heavenly host from being thrown out of the heavens into disgrace for disobedience (in trying to help our Lord Savior)I WALKED OUT OF THERE SHELL SHOCKED... this was a very small church, maybe about 25 to 35 people during that wednesday service. to make matters worst, i was there for the first time. the place is called Faith Fellowship Church. I walked out with tears because if this was true, I see the sufferings of my Lord in a completely different light. not only that, i see also the righteousness of God in so different vast light. What do you say? scriptural or not?

sermonindex Aug 12, 2005

the place is called Faith Fellowship Church. I walked out with tears because if this was true, I see the sufferings of my Lord in a completely different light. not only that, i see also the righteousness of God in so different vast light. What do you say? scriptural or not?Personally, I think many of these type of churches always have amazing miricalous things like visions and words from God that go on for over an hour which really captive and tickle the flesh. How boring it would be to go after that and hear an exposition of the word of God? people want to hear fables and things that tickle the ear, I am not saying that this is all false but if it is drawing doubts in your mind that would be the first inkling that it could be false. Compare everything with the word of God brother. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds." (Hebrews 1:1-2).It is important to note that God speaks to us primarly by "his Son" meaning that the Spirit of Christ that dwells in us leads us into "all truth" and that truth being revealed in the scriptures.

L

letsgetbusy Aug 12, 2005

I have heard people speak of that, though it is not in Scripture, the idea that the angels were ready to destroy everyone there at the cross. If it is not in Scripture, I take it with a grain of salt. Maybe it happened, maybe in didn't. The question that arises is, if it is important enough for us to ponder, why isn't it in the Word.I think about the girl in Acts that was bringing lots of money to men with her Satanic gifts. Not that this guy at that church had a demon, and not that he isn't saved. He could be a Christian that is getting beat up with visions brought about by his own flesh, or the event could be true. Maybe he had a true vision of God.But the fact that the vision is true, doesn't prove the godliness of the man, or really anything else. It seems that demons are able to communicate similarly to our two way radios. They can see an event on one side of the globe, and use this for Satan's purpose immediately elsewhere. Since Satan presents himself before God (read Job), he must be able to see many things that we can't, and certainly he can communicate these things to the unholy angels for deception.Rom 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."Something I am learning as I grow as a Christian is to wait for fruit. See the condition of this man down the road. Ravenhill said, bar none, you don't know a man until you have prayed with him, until you have heard him pour out his heart. How does he view himself before the Lord, does he live holy, etc? Satan cannot mimic a holy life.When I was a kid we had a man get up in church and describe one of those 'I saw the light while I was dying' episodes. I know some on this site say I am too rigid about stuff like this, but the only thing I can think of from Scripture that relates to this is:2 Cor 11:14-15 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."So I would say, wait and look for fruit.

M

Manfred Aug 12, 2005

And Michael was there weeping again besides the Lord holding his head...With his wings ??"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. ",(2 Timothy 4:3-4)Why waste time with such stories? If it doesn't match up with God's Word, we must reject it. These last days are full of these deceiving spirits, and it will increase and grow worse.We should keep the apostle Paul's words in mind:" Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death; if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus. ", Philippians 3:8-12Let's stick to what is scriptural and meaningful to God.Manfred

sermonindex Aug 12, 2005

brothers, (and i am really greatful at least two of those that i respect here) have already responded. i would like for some other specific members to weigh on this. I didn't walk out questioning the validity of the vision. for me that was besides the point because, the issue is it opened for me a vortex to see the suffering of Christ and the machination of Heavenly beings in a totally different light. there are some scriptural refrences for some of the claims to be outright true and biblical, though they might not have been in the Bible. In my 26years i have been priviledged to have seen a lot of things,- real things of God. I just wanted to ask a few things:if the story is true, that is under the assumption that if the story was true,a) does anybody see a vortex just as i see into a whole new light of what happened during those trying moments for our Lordb) what has not abode with you from the story?c) are some of the implications from the story biblical? forexample, that Angels have a Will.They also did not understand the main purpose why Christ had to come to earth. that their allegiance could be divided in the Trinity, not in that they side with one and denounce the other, but that they are drawn to a particular emotion to where they would obey to do something for the allegiance to part of the Trinity. I know with the last speculation, i will get a lecture about the Trinity. I would appreciate it if this didn't happen since i am not here to talk about that. I firmly believe in the PERFECT communion of the Holy Three as God. It is just that my tiny mind cant find a way to explain in words the thoughts that i have in my mindas i said, i might have been a bit dis-advantaged in that this was new church, with a new guy- he really didn't seem to be even well of a speaker, but he did try to pour his heart out. I really am trying not to limit God in a box. Would like more comments guys.

E

Eli_Barnabas Aug 12, 2005

"...we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us..."- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2I'm not saying whether the man was right or wrong, but only that we should not allow ourselves to be 'shocked' or alarmed at a vision, prophecy, etc. The Word of God has everything we need to know, and that alone should be our anchor.I believe we can take great comfort in this Scripture, in all cases such as these.In Christ,-Eli

sermonindex Aug 12, 2005

Why waste time with such stories? If it doesn't match up with God's Word, we must reject it. These last days are full of these deceiving spirits, and it will increase and grow worse.Let's stick to what is scriptural and meaningful to God.ManfredWhy is everyone so quick to cut this down. Read what the orginal writer wrote. I walked out with tears because if this was true, I see the sufferings of my Lord in a completely different light. not only that, i see also the righteousness of God in so different vast light. Now if that's not fruit, what is??I think/believe that you should do as another writer wrote 'as a grain of salt'. But, if it brought someone to 'learning about HIS righteousness, and suffering another way' what's the problem with that? Is learning about righteousness incorrect biblical teaching?Just because 'its not in the bible' doesn't mean its bad, just means it should be expressed as a personal experience (from the orginal person), and shouldn't be taught as 'doctrine' unless backed by scripture.It's like a TESTIMONY of your life, but its a testimony of a vision. Your testimony is probly totally different than the brother/sister next to you, so DON'T teach that 'you must be saved the same way as me'. (I.e. email tracts, paper tracts, billy graham service, tv invitation...etc)My advice to the orginal writer is this : Hold the vision to YOURSELF, if you see that it will encourage someone else, and God opened the door to speak about then tell people. But when your looking at scripture keep it to yourself about saying 'this "angel" it speaks about IS Michael'And i also leave you with this scripture1 Timothy 6:20-21 20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-- 21 which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you. So, if this starts up a 'fight' then dismiss what you said and say 'lets talk about other things the Lord has done' (I.e. Things in the bible, your personal testimony...or just TALK)Try to be very sensitive to your other brethren

L

letsgetbusy Aug 12, 2005

Col 2:18 "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind"Remember that the elect will judge angels. It is sometimes an interesting subject, but the overall message from the man is heavily angelic, and heavily toward the suffering of Christ. There are non-Biblical doctrines that focus on the suffering of Christ, and teach that we should suffer to be able to escape purgatory, etc. Christ had to suffer to pay for our sin, but I never hear any of the saints or any person of the triune God putting special attention on either in Scripture.a) does anybody see a vortex just as i see into a whole new light of what happened during those trying moments for our LordYes. There was probably more demonic activity going on there than maybe any other moment on the planet (Bulls of Bashan surrounding Christ, etc) My opinion is that Satan thought he had won at that point. I'm open to counterpoint on that.b) what has not abode with you from the story?If I understand you correctly, nothing of the story moves me closer to want what God wants from myself and everyone else. Our very life. My sufferings are the same as Cain's work of the field, he wants me to seek Him that I would wrestle with him, like Jacob, to the point where He blesses me. He wants my humility and obediance, not my endevours (personal suffering). My opinion is that it was Christ's obediance that was paramount over his suffering."Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it"Notice He gave Himself, he didn't offer up his suffering, but His very life.c) are some of the implications from the story biblical? forexample, that Angels have a Will...Obviously angels have a will as Satan rebelled, and the unholy angels who will be judged (Genesis 6:1-4, 2 Peter 2:4, and Jude 6-7).

sermonindex Aug 12, 2005

I have read the starting post carefully, and the responses so far. What immediately comes to mind is scripture. These help us to understand angels as servants of God, who do what they are told. They are messengers, spirits, who bring something of the presence of God to those humans to whom they minister, but who themselves, although 'understanding' something about human nature, do not participate in the feelings of fallen man, which is what Jesus did when He came.However, I realise Lucifer rebelled, angels rejoice when a sinner repents and fallen angels are masters of distorted 'emotion'. But, unfallen angels must feel what they are supposed to feel. This reminds me of how God used to tell the Israelites to rejoice, or worship, or praise. It was expected they could bring these emotions into how they acted, just on a command. I think there's a lesson here for us, to do with putting off the old man and putting on the new, but to get back to angels and an objective comparison with Jesus (mainly) as God's special Messenger.Quoting from Young's literal, so as to take the familiarity out of the text. You may want to read all these in a more familiar translation. The beauty of Young's is his magnificent success in keeping the same word where it appears in the Hebrew or Greek, and also capturing the heart of God in his choice of verbs and the way he places them to keep a hold of the original 'who' is doing 'what'.Hebrews 16 and when again He may bring in the first-born [Jesus] to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him--all messengers of God;' 7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;' 8 and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy reign; 9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee--God, thy God--with oil of gladness above thy partners;' 10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.' 13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?' 14 are they not all spirits of service--for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation? Hebrews 25 For not to messengers did He subject the coming world, concerning which we speak,6 and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, `What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him?7 Thou didst make him some little less than messengers, with glory and honour Thou didst crown him, and didst set him over the works of Thy hands,8 all things Thou didst put in subjection under his feet,' for in the subjecting to him the all things, nothing did He leave to him unsubjected, and now not yet do we see the all things subjected to him, 9 and him who was made some little less than messengers we see--Jesus--because of the suffering of the death, with glory and honour having been crowned, that by the grace of God for every one he might taste of death. 10 For it was becoming to Him, because of whom [are] the all things, and through whom [are] the all things, many sons to glory bringing, the author of their salvation through sufferings to make perfect, 11 for both he who is sanctifying and those sanctified [are] all of one, for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 saying, `I will declare Thy name to my brethren, in the midst of an assembly I will sing praise to Thee;' and again, `I will be trusting on Him;' 13 and again, `Behold I and the children that God did give to me.'14 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death--that is, the devil--15 and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,16 for, doubtless, of messengers it doth not lay hold, but of seed of Abraham it layeth hold,17 wherefore it did behove him in all things to be made like to the brethren, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,18 for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.Compare Genesis 2812 And he dreameth, and lo, a ladder set up on the earth, and its head is touching the heavens; and lo, messengers of God are going up and coming down by it; 13 and lo, Jehovah is standing upon it,and John 149 Nathanael answered and saith to him, `Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the king of Israel.' 50 Jesus answered and said to him, `Because I said to thee, I saw thee under the fig-tree, thou dost believe; greater things than these thou shalt see;' 51 and he saith to him, `Verily, verily, I say to you, henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the messengers of God going up and coming down upon the Son of Man.' Not only Jesus, but many others had angels sent to give a message from God. Peter was let out of prison by an angel. Angels appeared in dreams.From a very early stage in our world history, God has been hoping to find a place on earth where He can dwell with man. Everything He has done, is to bring us TO HIMSELF - from taking them out of Egypt, the tabernacle in the wilderness, the temple in Jerusalem, Immanuel (God tabernacles with us), to the indwelling Holy Spirit and the church, the Body of Christ - the temple made without hands. Last scripture....2 Peter 112 Wherefore, I will not be careless always to remind you concerning these things, though, having known them, and having been established in the present truth,13 and I think right, so long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up in reminding [you],14 having known that soon is the laying aside of my tabernacle, even as also our Lord Jesus Christ did shew to me,15 and I will be diligent that also at every time ye have, after my outgoing, power to make to yourselves the remembrance of these things.16 For, skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty--17 for having received from God the Father honour and glory, such a voice being borne to him by the excellent glory: `This is My Son--the beloved, in whom I was well pleased;' 18 and this voice we--we did hear, out of heaven borne, being with him in the holy mount. 19 And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise--in your hearts; 20 this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition,21 for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake.