For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 (KJV)I would like to get a response from some of you who are more learned then i am, specifically,"The calling" of God is "without repentance"?I've heard some say if you haven't or don't answer your "calling" that God has placed on your life then you will surely go to hell because that "calling is without repentance"?Thank You,Kadmiel
Let's read the chapter in context.Paul is speaking to the Roman church about the Jews25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. The hearts of Israel (Jews) have been blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.Israel will be saved...after the Gentiles come in. God is not done with them yet.28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.They are enemies of the gospel at the present time. BUT, they are God's elect they have an election because of their forefathers. God will not destroy Israel because of the promises he made to Abraham, Issac, Jacob, etc. The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. In other words, will continue his calling of the Jews and one day they will come back to the Father. Without repentance in this case means, God will not revoke his calling.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Romans 11:29 (KJV)Gas Prices ?I'm amazed that 19 people responded to a post on gas prices but yet with all my heart i post something much more serious at least to me in that if i didn't answer the call of God on my life would i go to hell or not. God called me over 27 years ago and i grieve over this portion of scripture a great deal. Please don't mis-understand me, or be upset with me or affended. I really do need alot of feedback on this if at all possible brothers and sisters. I really am scared in my heart and i'm pleading with my family on here for answer's. Please don't make me out to be a bad guy, i'm not, far from it.Brother Jay ?I do think you for your response but after reading it 3 different times, it seems what your saying is just genaralized and way out there and not more direct to me in my delima. Again i don't mean to affend you or anyone else here. I love you all as the body of Christ or i wouldn't be posting this serious thread for help. Please no one take affense or just view this thread but rather help me on this. I'm really wanting to know, i guess the Greek for "calling " and the Greek for "repentance" in this portion of scripture. For those of you who regualry post and respond on here, might you prayfully respond to me. I need in-put on this very much so. I'm grieved over this more then anyone can imagine. Would i end up in hell, born again or not due to not answering the call of God on my life, because it's without "repentance"?Sincerely,Kadmiel
edit-alt:Hi K,You have a legitimate question, but your choice of verse does not relate to it. I have one for you. How do you know that you have been born again?I am a little puzzled as to where you got this idea from. I remember my daughter telling me about a fellowship she went to, and it was all about this calling on your life, stuff.The only calling that I know of is the one that comes from a song that Dwight L. Moody said on his deathbed he wished he had written, and it went like this:'Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling, calling to you and to me, calling lost sinner come home.' That would be the only calling to respond to. In hebrew the word repent, means to make a 180 degree turn around and walk straight into the arms of your Lord.So often the mistake is made to take a very powerful verse out of the context and build an idea upon it, in the end people just get really confused. The verse has a historical setting that relates to the point of the chapter. Have you ever done a little course in Bible Hermaneutics? I can recommend a book that Dr. Rober Morey wrote...let me search for the link.I am sad for you that you have suffered so long, this happened to me to. Until, I was wise enough to learn a bit of grammar and a simple course in hermaneutics, if you cannot afford it, I am sure one of our precious brothers and sisters here will help you. Do not fret. You will see Jesus will lift you out of this confusion. Amen?In Jesus,Aeryck :-P
Brother Kadmiel,When confusion arises about a certain verse, it is best to do a little research on the subject.I took a look at the verse you gave us and did a word study with my KJV+Strongs numbers Bible and looked up the meaning of the original Greek words. I pray that this can be of some help, and that it will help bring you comfort.Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The words I looked at were "calling" and "without repentance". The word "calling" doesn't really refer to a ministry God has chosen for you (eg: "My calling from God is to be a missionary"). No, the word here where it says "calling" is from the Greek word "klēsis" which means an "invitation".The next one "without repentance" is from the Greek word "ametamelētos" which means "irrevokable", meaning it can not, or will not be taken back. This verse should be read in the following manner."For the gifts and calling (or invitation) of God are irrevokable (not to be taken away)"God's word must be read in context. This was refering to the Jews and God's plan of salvation for them. Here is what these verses say in a more understandable translation of the Bible.Rom 11:28 Now in response to the [proclamation of the] good news [about Christ], the Jews became [God’s] enemies for the sake of you [Gentiles]. But concerning [God’s] select people, these Jews became [God’s] dearly loved ones for the sake of their forefathers [i.e, who believed God’s promises regarding their descendants].Rom 11:29 For God does not change His mind about the gifts He gives and the people He calls [to Him].Rom 11:30 For you Gentiles were disobedient to God in the past, but now you have obtained [God’s] mercy by means of the disobedience of the Jews.Rom 11:31 So, now these [same] Jews have also been disobedient [to God], so that they may also now obtain [God’s] mercy by means of the mercy [He has] shown to you [Gentiles].Rom 11:32 For God has made all people prisoners of a disobedient life, so that He could show mercy to everyone. (AUV-NT)These passages speak of life and God's abounding grace and mercy. They do not speak of death and hell. God's word should bring us hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour, by who's blood we are SAVED FROM DEATH AND HELL! "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."(John 3:16,17) Those are the words of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems to me that the fear you've been having concerning the verse of scripture that you initially mentioned, is from the devil (2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.) and you need to reject it.James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. If you resist the devil, he has to leave, because God's word says so. Dearly beloved brother in Christ, I understand that your heart is grieved, as I have had similar circumstances where Satan has tried to steal my victory in Jesus, by trying to destroy my faith and hope in Christ. Do not let go of your faith, "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." Revelation 3:11(KJV)1Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1Peter 5:9 Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. I pray, and I ask those who read this post to pray as well, that God will give you peace and bring comfort to your troubled heart. I pray that God would give you guidence and wisdom in His word, and that He will clear up any and all confusion that you are dealing with. I pray also that God will give you the strength through Christ to resist the devil and all of his lies. And that you will hold fast that hope which you have in Christ Jesus. In Jesus name I pray, Amen.On a final note, the only way that not answering the call of God will send you to hell, is if God has invited you to salvation through Jesus Christ, and you do not answer that invitation. If you have not given answer to God's invitation and would like to, please feel free to write me and talk to me further. However, if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour, and you are feeling convicted about not serving God in a certain area that you feel He has called you to serve, I suggest that you find some place alone and seriously seek God in prayer. If this is truely the case, the only way to get rid of that conviction is to do what God wants you to do. I hope I have helped you in regards to your question. Peace be unto you from God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ.Always in Him ~Shaun.
Hi again Kadmiel,I have found what might be a useful site to you in the future. As I mentioned there is always a danger when a particular passage is taken out of the Bible and considered in isolation. Ultimately, that leads to a lot of confusion. Your intitial question, again:-'I've heard some say if you haven't or don't answer your "calling" that God has placed on your life then you will surely go to hell because that "calling is without repentance"?' ~ your question.As I mentioned in my first comment, that I am a little worried who you got this idea from, for the text does seem to have nothing to do with your question. As I was rushing off to take my son to school, I did not really attend to your question very well, so this will by my second attempt..lol..hopefully I will answer what your heart is saying? :-P This calling is divided into two basic thoughts:1. The one where Jesus commands all people everywhere to repent. That is when you first begin to follow Him. 2. The second is like the one the prophet Balaam got. He was disobediant to God, and we read that a donkey rebuked the madness/sin of the prophet. Similarly, Jonah, was told to do something, or in other words God called to him to fulfill a particularly imporant request...and well we all know what happened to Jonah.So if you have done the first and are doing the second, the worst that can happen is that Jesus our Shepard will bring you back as He does with each one of us. [write out 1 John 1 v 9]If you have yet not done the first, the second does not apply. So, now to the link for some good study materials to help you arrive at a better understanding of the Good Book. Bible Hermaneutics Should you still be confused, please feel free to write me at aeryck@telkomsa.netAeryck by Jesus Christ.
AeryckBible Hermaneutics is an interesting site. Thanks, I look forward to browsing this.
This is just a shot, but the way I heard Leonard Ravenhill talk about it, it means that a man that is called to preach, and has spiritual gifts, may never come to repentance, and miserably ruin himself while still retaining his calling (ministry) and gifts. In other words he may fulfill the position, and use the talents God gives him, but still never turn his back from his sin. So the gifts and calling are outside the responsiblity we all have to repent.Brother Len discusses the verse in The Leonard Ravenhill video, A Man of God, on this site. Great video!
Hi Kadmiel,Do you have the "e-sword" free Bible program ?It's at www.e-sword.netIt takes a long time to download the 50,000,000 (ha) books that you can stick into it, but it's well worth your wild. Especially the Commentaries and Dictionaries and at least a few Bible versions, especially the one called KJV+In less than 4 minutes, I got all of these Commentaries on your verses. It's puts them straight into your study notes section in a flash.Be of Good Cheer Brother ~ it ain't over yet :-) ! ...~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Albert Barnes Notes ~Rom 11:29 - For the gifts - The favors or benefits which God bestows on men. The word χάρισμα charisma properly denotes any benefit which is conferred on another as a mere matter of favor, and not of reward; see Rom_5:15-16; Rom_6:23. Such are all the favors which God bestows on sinners including pardon, peace, joy, sanctification, and eternal life.And calling of God - The word “calling” κλῆσις klēsis here denotes that act of God by which he extends an invitation to people to come and partake of his favors, whether it be by a personal revelation as to the patriarchs, or by the promises of the gospel, or by the influences of his Spirit. All such invitations or callings imply a pledge that he will bestow the favor, and will not repent, or turn from it. God never draws or invites sinners to himself without being willing to bestow pardon and eternal life. The word “calling” here, therefore, has not respect to external privileges, but to that choosing of a sinner, and influencing him to come to God, which is connected with eternal life.Without repentance - This does not refer to man, but to God. It does not mean that God confers his favors on man without his exercising repentance, but that God does not repent, or change, in his purposes of bestowing his gifts on man. What he promises he will fulfil; what he purposes to do, he will not change from or repent of. As he made promises to the fathers, he will not repent of them, and will not depart from them; they shall all be fulfilled; and thus it was certain that the ancient people of God, though many of them had become rebellious, and had been cast off, should not be forgotten and abandoned. This is a general proposition respecting God, and one repeatedly made of him in the Scriptures; see Num_23:19, “God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he not said, and shall he not do it? hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?” Eze_24:14; 1Sa_15:29; Psa_89:35-36; Tit_1:2; Heb_6:18; Jam_1:17. It follows from this,(1) That all the promises made to the people of God shall be fulfilled.(2) that his people need not be discouraged or desponding, in times of persecution and trial.(3) that none who become his true friends will be forsaken, or cast off. God does not bestow the gift of repentance and faith, of pardon and peace, on people, for a temporary purpose; nor does he capriciously withdraw them, and leave the soul to ruin. When he renews a soul, it is with reference to his own glory; and to withdraw those favors, and leave such a soul once renewed to go down to hell, would be as much a violation of all the principles of his nature as it would be to all the promises of the Scripture.(4) for God to forsake such a soul, and leave it to ruin, would imply that he did repent. It would suppose a change of purpose and of feeling. It would be the character of a capricious being, with no settled plan or principles of action; no confidence could be reposed in him, and his government would be unworthy the affections and trust of his intelligent creation.Adam Clarke's Commentary ~Rom 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God, etc. - The gifts which God has bestowed upon them, and the calling - the invitation, with which he has favored them he will never revoke. In reference to this point there is no change of mind in him; and therefore the possibility and certainty of their restoration to their original privileges, of being the people of God, of enjoying every spiritual blessing with the fullness of the Gentiles, may be both reasonably and safely inferred.Repentance, when applied to God, signifies simply change of purpose relative to some declarations made subject to certain conditions. See this fully explained and illustrated by himself, Jer_18:7-9.Jamieson, Fausett and Brown ~Rom 11:29 - For the gifts and calling--"and the calling" of God are without repentance--"not to be," or "cannot be repented of." By the "calling of God," in this case, is meant that sovereign act by which God, in the exercise of His free choice, "called" Abraham to be the father of a peculiar people; while "the gifts of God" here denote the articles of the covenant which God made with Abraham, and which constituted the real distinction between his and all other families of the earth. Both these, says the apostle, are irrevocable; and as the point for which he refers to this at all is the final destiny of the Israelitish nation, it is clear that the perpetuity through all time of the Abrahamic covenant is the thing here affirmed. And lest any should say that though Israel, as a nation, has no destiny at all under the Gospel, but as a people disappeared from the stage when the middle wall of partition was broken down, yet the Abrahamic covenant still endures in the spiritual seed of Abraham, made up of Jews and Gentiles in one undistinguished mass of redeemed men under the Gospel--the apostle, as if to preclude that supposition, expressly states that the very Israel who, as concerning the Gospel, are regarded as "enemies for the Gentiles' sakes," are "beloved for the fathers' sakes"; and it is in proof of this that he adds, "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance." But in what sense are the now unbelieving and excluded children of Israel "beloved for the fathers' sakes?" Not merely from ancestral recollections, as one looks with fond interest on the child of a dear friend for that friend's sake [DR. ARNOLD]--a beautiful thought, and not foreign to Scripture, in this very matter (see 2Ch_20:7; Isa_41:8) --but it is from ancestral connections and obligations, or their lineal descent from and oneness in covenant with the fathers with whom God originally established it. In other words, the natural Israel--not "the remnant of them according to the election of grace," but THE NATION, sprung from Abraham according to the flesh--are still an elect people, and as such, "beloved." The very same love which chose the fathers, and rested on the fathers as a parent stem of the nation, still rests on their descendants at large, and will yet recover them from unbelief, and reinstate them in the family of God.Matthew Henry ~Rom 11:22-32 - Of all judgments, spiritual judgments are the sorest; of these the apostle is here speaking. The restoration of the Jews is, in the course of things, far less improbable than the call of the Gentiles to be the children of Abraham; and though others now possess these privileges, it will not hinder their being admitted again. By rejecting the gospel, and by their indignation at its being preached to the Gentiles, the Jews were become enemies to God; yet they are still to be favoured for the sake of their pious fathers. Though at present they are enemies to the gospel, for their hatred to the Gentiles; yet, when God's time is come, that will no longer exist, and God's love to their fathers will be remembered. True grace seeks not to confine God's favour. Those who find mercy themselves, should endeavour that through their mercy others also may obtain mercy. Not that the Jews will be restored to have their priesthood, and temple, and ceremonies again; an end is put to all these; but they are to be brought to believe in Christ, the true Messaih whom they crucified, and become one sheep-fold with the Gentiles, under Christ the Great Shepherd. The captivities of Israel, their dispersion, and their being shut out from the church, are emblems of the believer's corrections for doing wrong; and the continued care of the Lord towards that people, and the final mercy and blessed restoration intended for them, show the patience and love of God.John Gill's Exposition ~are without repentance; that is, they are immutable and unalterable; God never revokes them, or calls them in again, or takes them away from the persons to whom he has made such a previous donation: the reasons are, because that his love from whence they spring is always the same; it admits of no distinction, nor of any degrees, nor of any alteration; and electing grace, according to which these gifts are bestowed, stands sure and immovable; not upon the foot of works, but of the sovereign will of God, and always has its sure and certain effect; and the covenant of grace, in which they are secured, remains firm and inviolable; and indeed, these gifts are no other than the promises of it, which are all yea and amen in Christ, and the blessings of it, which are the sure mercies of David. Whatever God purposes, or promises to give, or really does give to his people, whether into the hands of Christ for them, or into their own, he never repents of or reverses. Agreeably to these words of the apostle, the Jews say (g). Vincent's Word Studies ~Rom 11:29 - Without repentance (ametamelēta). See note on 2Co_7:10 for this word (a privative and metamelomai, to be sorry afterwards). It is not ametanoēton (Rom_2:5) from a privative and metanoeō, to change one’s mind. God is not sorry for his gifts to and calling of the Jews (Rom_9:4.).Wesley ~Rom 11:29 - For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance - God does not repent of his gifts to the Jews, or his calling of the gentiles.
Dear brother Kadmiel,It is on my heart to say this to you, that often when God calls a person, the time is not right for the unfolding of their full obedience. Immediately, what is needed is preparation time, and for the person's heart to be looking to the Lord for the fulfilment of what He has put there. Often in our lives under the New Covenant, 'things' do not work out as cleanly and simply as they appeared to - say, in the story of Jonah - when he knew his immediate obedience was required.But, when you look into the story, you find in chapter 2, a picture flashing before you in the written word, which is as true to life now, as it was for him - we all have to forsake our idols - some of us after we first come to the Lord.6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. 7 "When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple. 8 "Those who regard worthless idols Forsake their own Mercy. 9 But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD."I am trying to tell you, there is still time to fulfil completely, God's will in your life, (if the previous posts have not completely satisfied your heart's need for answers). Many of us make mistakes. The fact of being disobedient once, does not mean you cannot be obedient from now on.In my experience, God is able completely to forgive and also to weave our mistakes with the other parts of our lives, to bring good to us and others. We are all learning how to complete the course He has set us to run for Him.Here is another little parable which has kept my heart encouraged towards the grace of God. He is not looking as much for performance (although He is, paradoxically) as He is looking for hearts which will turn towards obedience, from disobedience. Does that make sense?Matthew 2128 " But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go, work today in my vineyard.' 29 "He answered and said, 'I will not,' but afterward he regretted it and went. 30 "Then he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, 'I go, sir,' but he did not go. 31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said to Him, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you. 32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him; but tax collectors and harlots believed him; and when you saw you did not afterward relent and believe him. So we see how the son who said all the right things but didn't do them AND did not relent, did not receive the commendation of Jesus. God is the Great I AM. It is always 'now' with Him. Although you see your life as something which is passing through time, God is always seeing it as NOW. This IS the day of salvation.
KadmielRom 11:29 'repentance'The word translated 'repentance' here is ametameletos: this is not the most usual word for 'repentance' in the New Testament. the 'a' at the beginning means 'without' and 'metamellomai,' which is used in such places as Matt. 21:29,32; 27:3; 2Cor. 7:8; Heb. 7:21 This word is not used with the same sense as 'metanoeO'. Vines says ametameletos "not repented of, unregretted" (a, negative, and a verbal adjective of metamelomai), signifies "without change of purpose;" it is said (a) of God in regard to his "gifts and calling," Rom_11:29; (b) of man, 2_Cor_7:10, RV, "[repentance (metanoia, see C)] ... which bringeth no regret" (AV, "not to be repented of"); the difference between metanoia and metamelomai, illustrated here, is briefly expressed in the contrast between "repentance" and "regret." That is the same conclusion that my researches had brought me to.ametameletos in Rom 11:29 has been translated as 'without regret' or 'irrevocably'. Rom. 11:29 (KJVS)For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 2Cor. 7:10 (KJVS)For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. Following of from Vine's comments we might almost paraphrase Rom 11:29 as 'God does not change his plans'This passage is almost the culmination of Paul's revelations about the nature and destiny of Israel. You will know that Christians have different, and often strongly held, views on this passage. Consequently it is difficult to expound this section without getting into the whole Israel/Church discussion. However I would suggest that if you think about this particular passage the real emphasis is on destiny. Paul has been speaking about men's response to God's revealed will. He has spoken in Ch 9 about the way in which God revealed His will to Pharaoh (Rom 9:17) God knows what is going to happen but that is not the same as making it happen. Pharaoh made his decision, and instead of becoming a king with a reputation for tolerance and obedience to God (as Cyrus was some time later) he set himself to defy God. It made no difference to the end result but the consequence for Pharaoh and Egypt was catastrophic. However, and this is important, we are not talking about Pharaoh's 'salvation'. This passage has nothing to tell us about whether he ever repented or if he has 'gone to hell'. We are not looking here at Pharaoh's eternal destiny but at his earthly destiny. If you get these two things mixed up you may end up with the conclusion that 'anyone who does not fulfill their calling will go to hell'.Another 'earthly destiny' that comes into focus is that of Esau (Rom 9:13) First we ought to remind ourselves that the statement 'Esau have I hated' was first written about 1300 years after Esau had been buried. This was not a pre-destiny that God imposed upon Esau but is a historical summary of the man rather than a prescription for his life. Esau was, by right, the first born son. God declared that the elder would serve the younger, but this did not necessarily determine Esau's own behaviour; it merely predicted it. Esau as you know 'despised his birthright' and as a consequence the 'birthright' and its blessing passed to Jacob. Consequently it is the destiny of Jacob that becomes significant in the Bible revelation rather than that of Esau. But, again, this passage has nothing at all to do with Esau's 'eternal destinly' (nor Jacob's for that matter) Esau did not forfeit 'salvation' by his despising of the birthright, but he did forfeit an 'earthly destiny'. When the scriptures speak of Esau... “For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.” (Heb. 12:17, KJVS) Esau's 'rejection' was not in terms of 'eternal destiny' but of 'earthly destiny'.Failure to fulfill our 'calling' may have consequences in this world and in the next but this is not 'salvation' which is in view but faithful stewardship.
letsgetbusyThis is just a shot, but the way I heard Leonard Ravenhill talk about it, it means that a man that is called to preach, and has spiritual gifts, may never come to repentance, and miserably ruin himself while still retaining his calling (ministry) and gifts.In other words he may fulfill the position, and use the talents God gives him, but still never turn his back from his sin. So the gifts and calling are outside the responsiblity we all have to repent.I have not seen the particular video, but I would be very surprised if this is what Ravenhill is saying. The person 'not repenting' of gifts and calling in Rom 11:29 is God Himself. This verse is not referring to human action but divine. "the free gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" ie God will not revoke them.
In other words he may fulfill the position, and use the talents God gives him, but still never turn his back from his sin. So the gifts and calling are outside the responsiblity we all have to repent.This is not an uncommon line taken by some in our circles. I have heard Ravenhill say that the Holy Spirit could depart and leave His gift. This was in the interview referring to Jimmy Swaggart and how he "gave his tongues' after having fallen and declared himself to be full of the Holy Ghost. As an illustration he used a woman who had been enguaged to be married and had a ring on her finger. He saw her later with the ring and asked about the man. "He's gone, but he left his gift" (in this case the ring). I think Ravenhill's comments are too obscure to draw any real conclusions from. Can the Holy Spirit depart and leave His gift? I do not hold this view because I believe the gifts are resident in the Holy Spirit. There are some that believe that the gifts (especially tongues) flow from our spirit as empowered by the Holy Spirit. I do not deny this, but am unclear on it. If this were so we get into other grounds as to exactly what 'spirit' is behind the gift once the Holy Spirit has departed? There are some in Pentecostal circles that speak of a 'memorized tongue'- this is spiritual language without the unction of the Holy Spirit; but recited from habit. This could leave an observer with the impression that the gift was still there, but the Holy Spirit is gone. However, the one speaking with tongues knows if they are speaking with unction or not. Just like you know if you are praying with unction or in your own strength or preaching or teaching with unction. Samson found out the hard way that one can loose the ability to exercise spirituals (spiritual gifts). He shook himself like at other times and whist not that the Lord had departed. And with the Lord, went his gift of miracles (or whatever so be it was). His hair grew back and he called on God again and God empowered him again in his calling and gift. In this is a solumn warning. You will only shake yourself in sin so many times before the plow gets cleaned.
This is not an uncommon line taken by some in our circles. I have heard Ravenhill say that the Holy Spirit could depart and leave His gift. Hi RobertIn a sense that is another topic rather than an explanation of Rom 11:29. The reference to something being 'without repentance' in this verse has nothing to say about the 'receiver' repenting. It is saying that the 'giver' will not 'repent'. ie change his purpose.
I want to thank all of you that responded by saying with great gratitude for your Holy compassion to this issue that i have wrestled with. Truly the body of Christ on here does care.aeryck: I am a little puzzled as to where you got this idea fromI've read this book a few times but just the other day this jumped off the page to me.A Divine Revelation of Hell by Mary K. BaxterThere is greater punishment for those who once preached the Gospel and went back into sin, or for those who would not obey the call of God for thier lives. (p.70)I also did a google search on her book and have seen alot of negative things on different websites in regards to her and her book as well.Servus:I hope i have helped you in regards to your questionYes you have and very much so , i'm very gratefull.Letsgetbusy:I look forward to listening to " A man of God " by Leonard Ravenhill. Thank you for your honest and helpfull concern.GrannyAnnie:Wow, thank you sister for that. My goodness that is so incredible. I spent about 2 hours looking it all over and installing so many things. I do look forward to using this Bible software daily. Thank You with all my heart for your detailed response from e-sword.dorcas:Makes a great deal of sense. Thank you ever so much for caring.Philogos:Awesome break down of the greek and all you had to share with me. Most incredible. To all of you thank you for your prayfull time and effort at responding to me. I thank you for you dedication in helping me understand and for your prayers and words of comfort. I have been very blessed by you all and as i write this now i'm flooded with a peace that only our Lord can give. Praise be to God!His BondServant,Kadmiel
Hi Ron,In a sense that is another topic rather than an explanation of Rom 11:29. The reference to something being 'without repentance' in this verse has nothing to say about the 'receiver' repenting. It is saying that the 'giver' will not 'repent'. ie change his purpose.I understand. I was just trying to shed some light onto the Ravenhill point as I understood it and how that plays out with that mind set that the callings and giftings are without repentance. The concept probably needs to be explored a bit to bring it into focus. Misinterpretations of passages become doctrines pretty easy it seems.
Concerning the Ravenhill quote, I first must say that the elect will be saved, regardless. God knows the number, man does not. Hebrews 6 says that a man can taste the Spirit, but this man has not receieved Christ, neither has Christ received Him. I believe that God may grant a man like this the ability to be a great speaker, and stir emotion, etc. But he himself never repented, therefore never was saved. A man that is called might not respond. I didn't say the Holy Ghost would live in the man, then leave, though I know that Ravenhill might have.My point is that your calling doesn't save you, neither do any gifts God gave you do anything for you on the Day of Judgement. They are outside, or 'without' the realm of repentance.
neither do any gifts God gave youletsgetbusy,Surely one cannot receive the gifts (of the Spirit) unless one has received the Spirit, first? 'The gifts' or 'a gift' in operation is the clear sign to others in the church that one has received the Spirit, and the Spirit with their spirit bears witness that what is being manifest is of THE Holy Spirit.
My point is that your calling doesn't save you, neither do any gifts God gave you do anything for you on the Day of Judgement. They are outside, or 'without' the realm of repentance.LetsgetbusyI am sure you are right about the first half of this quote, but I am also sure that Rom 11:29 has nothing to do with this topic. The word 'without' is not really in this verse. What we have is a word which means 'regret-less'. I know that in Old English 'without' can mean outside, but not in this verse.
the first thing we neeed to understand is no person has any gifts the ifts are given soley to the church and once saved and a part of the church the holy spirit distributes each gift as he wills
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