Legalism

I have been listening to a couple of well known preachers for a while now and have a lot of respect for both men. They were both pastors of their own church and I have no doubt that both are very Godly men. I have listened to coutless sermons given by both preachers, and although the content is very different, I have had no problem with either one to date. Both pointed me only to Christ! I also recognise that the Spirit had probably given them very personal convictions on the topics they were to teach about, remembering that their wisdom is surely a gift to be shared amongst the body of believers in that area. However, today, whilst listening to some teaching, one of the preachers said he would rather be Legalistic than Worldly. I think he meant it in the context of knowing and living under grace, yet emphasising the need not to be part of this world, quoting from Jesus' Prayer for the disciples in John 17. Here Jesus likens them to himself as not conforming and living for this world. "14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world."The other demands that Legalism in the church is Satanic, it is a form of Witchcraft, and it is the church's biggest threat. He argues that legalistic followers are like those in the church of Galatia who have been 'bewitched'. I'm struggling with this a bit; I recognise I am justified by faith, so are my efforts to remain obediant Legalistic? Temptation is inevitable, so I askAre we holding hands with Satan when we are being Legalistic?, or are we just walking with extra caution? Jesus also says to the disciples"By standing firm you will win your souls."ThanksChristopher Joel

I think the preacher you were listening to is a bit off in what he says. What many don't realize, is that legalism IS wordliness. It often creates pride, unmercifulness, coldness and the like. Such was the problems with the Pharisees. They thought the biggest matters of the law were things regarding cleanness and uncleanness, but Jesus told them that the most important matters were regarding justice, mercy, and faithfulness. They had setup so many additional laws to "protect" one from accidentally being unclean, that a racism towards the Gentiles was formed. There is nothing wrong with having personal convictions on matters where the Scriptures are not specific, but when we start preaching things that are merely our personal convictions, and then teaching them to others, we run the risk of making our traditions of men the commandments of God... which can often be in great conflict with God's law. Col 2:20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.Paul says these man-made rules have the appearance of wisdom, but legalistic rules of "touch not, taste not, handle not" have no actual value against fleshly indulgence. These rules can only deal with outward things, and seldom get to the heart of the matter. They will never create a pure heart, or wash away one sin. All they do at best is whitewash tombs full of dead men's bones.

I agree with what has been written here so far, i'd just like to add some more scriptures from Romans 14Rom 14:2-4 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.Paul here says that if some one decides to eat one way and has a brother who eats differently, neither has the right to impose his view on the other.Romans 14:10-14 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.at the end Paul basically says it is a matter of personal preference, today this can be musical taste, TV or not to TV, personal dress etc... the crux of the whole discourse in this chapter though is in verse 8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. AMEN to that one!! WE LIVE UNTO THE LORD thats why we should do as the Bereans did: 'they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.' Acts 17:11bremember to pray for guidance in all situations and you will avoid the pitfall of legalism something I'm very aware of myself having fallen into it almost imediately after conversion but praise God He has opened my eyes and now i KNOW to ONLY Follow Him, Glory to Jesus for He set this captive free!! Hallelujah!!! ooo tell ye i love Him could go on like this all night :-D :-D:-Dmatt

Here my take on Legalism vs. Obedience - my understanding is that it has to deal with motive. If anyone think I am way off base - please let me know. This is the way I have understood it to this point, but am open to what others have to say.When modern western Christians are told that they must obey the commands and teachings of Jesus and His Father, the word legalism pops into their minds. I think for a lot of people the meaning of Legalism is either not fully known, or perhaps misunderstood. I was tricked by a false teacher for years myself, and was guilty of confusing legalism with obedience. I think there is a common misunderstanding, but it is very important as Christians that we know what the difference between legalism and obedience, for two very important reasons. First, some of Jesus harshest words, were against Legalism. Jesus hated Legalism. The outspoken, bold rebukes that Jesus was so well know for and ended up getting him killed in a plot by the Legalist of His day, were revsereved for the legalists. Secondly Jesus put such high importance on obedience that the grace, mercy, and the salvation of your very soul depends on it. Obedience was so important to Jesus, and so fundamental to the Christian way of thinking and life of separation, that Paul, Peter, James, John, all are very clear on the point that obedience out of unimaginable Love for Jesus and His Father are required to continue to recieve grace, mercy, and salvation and finish the race recieving the prize in the end. I am not saying that you are obedient so that you can receive grace, mercy, and salvation. You will never be able to do it. It will never happen no matter how hard you try if this your motive. This is in fact what Legalism is.But that your obedience is proof of your total and all consuming Love for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Or to put it another way, no one with this total and all consuming Love for our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, would ever be disobedient to Him or His Father. This is Obedience.“If you love me, obey my commandments.” Jesus - John 14:15It is very important that you very clearly and distinctly understand the meaning of and differences between these two words. Again Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all agree that the very salvation of our souls depends on us knowing the difference. Knowing what Jesus had to say about legalism and disobedience, how many Legalist or disobedient people who call Him “Lord, Lord, Lord” or “claim belief” or “claim Christianity” do you think will be spending eternity in the presence of Holy and Righteous God? “Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven. ” Matt 7:21 Knowing what Jesus taught and the example He gave for us to mold our lives after, how many holy, separated, cross-bearing, pure, self-denying, humble, righteous, meek, slaves and servants of the Master Jesus Christ do you think will be spending eternity with Him? I can’t even begin stress how direly important it is to very clearly and distinctly understand the meaning of and differences between legalism and obedience. Don’t forget that Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, and John all agree that the very salvation of our souls depends on us knowing the difference. Legalism is anything a person does in order to get to heaven or receive salvation, or as if under Law. This can be anything from Doing 20 Hail Mary's,Saying the exact same prayer over and over day after day night after night,Animal sacrifice,Praying or reading the bible a half hour everyday,Tithing,Caring for your personal temple,Going to church every Sunday religiously,Gnat straining,Selling your house, cars, all your possessions and giving all the money too the poor, or even,Trying to obey every law and command of Jesus,Legalism is anything a person does in order to get to heaven or receive salvation, or as if under Law. Motive - That is the difference - Motive! Take for instance “Praying or reading the bible a half hour everyday” If you do this as a task, or as a chore you must do to be a good Christian and thus receive salvation, than even prayer and reading the Bible can be legalistic in motive and intention. On the other hand, if you pray without ceasing and thirst and hunger for the Word of God like the air you breath and the food you eat, than you are an faithful and obedient servant who has given out of love, all of your heart, and all of your mind and all of your desires to the will of Jesus and His Father in Heaven. When you put your Faith in Him you surrender your life to the will of your Master. This is true Faith. This is Faith that saves.If Jesus is the all consuming love and desire of your Heart, than you prefer to live every second of your life as a slave and servant according to the desire of your Master Jesus Christ. People who have this all consuming love are meticulously obedient to their Master and lover of their soul Jesus Christ. True Christians are obedient out of their Faith, true love and desire to please Jesus even at their own personal expense or personal suffering, (Obedience) not out of their will to get into heaven alone, or in order to receive salvation or as a task one must do, or as a chore, or as if under Law.(Legalism)You are not forced to have this type of Faith and love for Jesus, but the Bible tells us, if we don’t have this type of love for Jesus, than we are not worthy of Him and will not enter the Kingdom of God. It is like the guy I worked with about 10 years ago back in Ann Arbor. Although this guy would frequently get drunk and beat his wife, he claimed he really loved her. We all know that what his man called love is not real love. This man had a very warped definition of love and even though he really believed in his heart that he loved his wife, the fact still remains, that if he really loved his wife he would not continue to beat her. For this man to claim he loved his wife while his continual actions screamed otherwise, is proof he drowning in the water of his own dilutions.The Apostle Paul Put it like this. Here are four Scriptures written by Paul.“I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.” Galatians 2:21"But no, you won't listen. So you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself because of your stubbornness in refusing to turn from your sin. For there is going to come a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds. There will be trouble and calamity for everyone who keeps on sinning” Apostle Paul - Rom 2:5-9“For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace.” Apostle Paul - Galatians 5:4“So since God's grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval. Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness.” Apostle Paul - Rom 6:15-18Is Paul contradicting himself in these Scriptures? Are the Romans Scriptures right or are the Galatians Scriptures right? If you believe that all Scripture is the inspired word of God your answer must be that both Scriptures are correct. In Galatians Paul is talking about Legalism. In Romans Paul is talking about Obedience. Paul is telling us that the difference between Legalism and Obedience is revealed by the motive or condition of our hearts - “trying to make yourselves right” (Legalism) “saved by keeping the law” .(Legalism) “choose to obey...your master” (Obedience) “obeyed with all your heart” (Obedience) “slaves to your new master, righteousness” (Obedience) The words of Jesus also back up what Paul is telling us “If you love me, you will obey what I command” Jesus also tells us that the motive or condition of the heart is love for Him. Now since all the Scriptures are true, and we have we words of Jesus which back up our assumptions, we can speak firm and bold as Truth and not opinion. We can soundly state that true Christians are obedient out of their true Faith, true love and heart felt desire to please Jesus even at their own personal expense or personal suffering, (Obedience) not out of their will to get into heaven alone, or in order to receive grace and salvation or as a task one must do, or as a chore, or as if under Law.(Legalism)The choice is yours to make. You can choose to drown in the water of your own dilutions or You can choose to live in Truth, love the Lord your God with all of your heart, all of your strength, all your soul ,and live in Faith and obedience to your Lord, Master, and Savior Jesus Christ. “Not all people who sound religious are really godly. They may refer to me as `Lord,' but they still won't enter the Kingdom of Heaven. The decisive issue is whether they obey my Father in heaven. ” Matt 7:21 “If you love me, obey my commandments.” John 14:15"So why do you call me `Lord,' when you won't obey me?” Luke 6:46“He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Luke11:28“He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and practice evil deeds.” Romans 2:7-8

The classic centre for this discussion is Paul's letter to the churches of Galatia. The letter is a snap-shot of a process that the early church struggled with for some years. At the point of Paul writing Galatians the sides were still sorting out their positions but later on it became crystal clear that one group had made up its mind; “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts 15:1, KJVS) In our evangelical use of the phrase 'being saved' we may have obscured part of the issue here.Krispy defines legalism as "Legalism is saying "you must do this or you are not saved". This is a start but I think we need to clarify it a little. Is Krispy saying 'you must do this or you are not save' or 'you must to this or you cannot be saved'. In other words is he saying 'if you are saved you will do this, and if you are not doing this you are not saved'? OR is he saying 'if you do not do this you will not become saved'? I'm sure you will tell us!;-) However the Acts 15:1 could also be read in different ways. Is it saying 'if you have not been circumcised you can't possibly be saved' or is it saying 'unless you become circumcised you cannot become saved'? Hope you can see the difference. With the Acts 15:1 I can try to give a definite answer based on the forms of the verbs which are used. (now I know some will go to sleep at this point, but for the others...) I will try to keep it simple... the 'you cannot' is a present tense and signified 'it is not possible' but 'to be saved' is a Aorist Passive Infinity (thought it was, you cry) Well the significance is that this means something like 'it is not possible for you to become saved. So we know where we are. At this point some had begun to teach that circumcision was a necessary prerequisite to salvation. This is legalism in it developed form, and we all say 'No' to this form of legalism.However, earlier in Galatians, I am not sure that it had quite reached this stage of things. It seems from what Paul says that some were believing that although the starting of 'salvation' was 'by faith' progress in that salvation could only come about if you then began to keep the law. You might paraphrase this idea as 'justification by faith' but 'sanctification by works'. What does Paul have to say about this?“This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:2-3, NKJV) The churches of Galatia had begun to believe in 'justification by faith' but 'sanctification by works'; legalism.The issue focussed on 'circumcision' but the underlying issue is wider than that. As soon as you say 'I must add 'x' to faith in order to please God' you into legalism. Here is an equation I have shared beforefaith + 'x' = legalismIt does not matter how 'good' the 'x' is, if you add it to faith in order to please God you have stepped into legalism. When Paul wrote to the Romans he said “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;...” (Rom. 4:16b, KJVS) This is a sentence worth remembering. God is determined to save us 'by grace' that is by His own free gift. This is why He has ordained that salvation is 'by grace' but 'through faith'. If it was anything else we would be able to say 'I contributed/earned that' but such a claim will never be heard. God has ordained that finding favour with Him will always be 'of faith' so that it can be 'be grace'.It is the order of things which matters. 'by grace through faith brings salvation' and such faith is 'alone' but can never remain 'alone'. Genuine salvation will always express itself in obedience to God, but 'obedience to God' will never earn salvation. Not in its beginnings at conversion and not later in the walk. “As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,” (Col. 2:6, NKJV) The way you begin is the way you progress. We have a saying over here; don't change horses mid-stream.The tragedy of the Jewish people is expressed by Paul in Romans“Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.” (Rom. 10:1-3, NKJV) This is 'do-it-yourself salvation' and the 'seeking to establish' our own righteousness can never find favour with God.However, on occasion, Paul had freedom of conscience to do some strange things. “So Paul still remained a good while. Then he took leave of the brethren and sailed for Syria, and Priscilla and Aquila were with him. He had his hair cut off at Cenchrea, for he had taken a vow.” (Acts 18:18, NKJV)“Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.” Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time an offering should be made for each one of them.” (Acts 21:23-26, NKJV)Was this 'legalism'? No, because Paul was not earning favour with God by these things; he simply chose to do them. “and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God, but under law toward Christ), that I might win those who are without law;” (1Cor. 9:20-22, NKJV) Not, we should notice, to win favour with God, but to win men for God.

I agree with you fully brother, ultimately when it comes to obedience it must come from the heart, and I truly praise the Lord for the encouragement recieved thru you. It is all about the heart, all our good deeds, all of everything we try to do is void, unless its in love.As the Word says(1 Corinthians 13) "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge;and though I have all faith, so that I can move mountains and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor and though I give my body to be burned and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing."As you said philologos with out the heart in obedience, no matter how good the deed it is in vain.So let us take this truth and run with it living in it everyday always in the Lord.I must say I an a newbie to the forums but I really praise the Lord that I can participate with you guysBlessings in Christ our Lord always Craig :-) :-) :-D

Legalism is the upholding of a non-Biblical tradition. Notice the only ones that Jesus really blasted in the Scriptures were the legalizers. If He handled them that way, isn't it obvious how we should handle the concept of legalism?

Legalism is the upholding of a non-Biblical tradition. Notice the only ones that Jesus really blasted in the Scriptures were the legalizers. If He handled them that way, isn't it obvious how we should handle the concept of legalism?I don't think it is. I think Legalism is trying to acquire favour/approval/progress by 'doing things'. In fact the most 'biblical' form of 'legalism' is an upholdin of 'biblical traditions' with the wrong motivation. Do we do things in order to acquire favour etc, or is it because we have received 'favour' that we 'do things'? Do we do things to acquire 'grace' or do we do things because we have received 'grace'; that is the real issue.

Sister GrannieAnnie wrote:When "flesh" is mentioned so many times in the N.T., it is not always talking only about blatant 'sin', but 'any' deed that did not originate from the Holy Spirit and carried out IN Him. Flesh is just "us".I know that you hear His voice. Many do not understand that the absence of His voice leaves us with no hope of pleasing Him. Many will twist precepts like faith and grace in a way that sounds right but in reality there is no understanding. Many mistake His mercy for grace. Many mistake the reason for grace. Grace from God gives us understanding. Understanding brings us to faith. Hearing His promises and then experiencing His faithfulness creates trusting children. Faith comes only by hearing the word of God. The source of faith is rooted in His voice. In ChristJeff

I know that grace is free. By grace I understand it to be the power of God given freely to do His Wll or His Word. However it seems as though at certain times it almost takes a legalistic approach in our daily life discipline to break though to grace. Does that make sense? Say like fastings, it seems that fasting with prayer has extra special effects in our lives, almost as if God favors you more during these intense times of consecration. So how do I balance this whole issue in my literal walk ?

Dohzman,I totally understand where you are coming from. As, a stated in my earlier post I think it is an issue of motive. If your motive is from an undying, all consuming and overwhelming love for the lover and Savior of your soul Jesus Christ - it is obedience. If you are trying to get heaven or trying to please out of some humanistic, legalistic, fleshy desire to be or look like "a good christian" - it is legalism. This the way I see it. Remember Saul of Tarsus was meticulously legalistic, but the Apostle Paul was lovingly obedient. I hope this makes sense. Let me know if otherwise.

Legalism is what I do when I get up off my knees before God and start questioning His word. It seems like when I get up off my knees before God I get restless and then out of boredom the world appeals to me but I know it shouldn't. Out of what could only be me trying to justify my current state I then decide to start questioning whether He was in my good deeds to begin with or if it was just me doing it. Then I start doing legalistic things in the flesh until I'm back again on my face before God. It's self-righteous behavior due to lack of faith and prayer to God. If I'm not having a relationship with God then I'm going to be self-righteous by default and tossed about like a wave in the ocean, double minded, legalistic etc...

Hi Everyone,I’m new here and this is only my second post (my first being on the Intro. thread), but I’d like to weigh in on the issue of legalism, if I may. By the way, I’ve been totally blessed by a lot of the stuff that I’ve read on this forum. There truly is much wisdom coming forth here.I believe that most of the modern church has no idea what legalism truly is. I have been in churches where any effort to live and preach repentance and obedience was construed to be legalism. However, probably, the most common idea of legalism is that it is an effort to earn one’s salvation by works, instead of by merely believing in the finished work of Christ. While this does portray an aspect of legalism, it does not get to the real heart of the matter. For true legalism goes much deeper than this, and it is a far more common defect within our modern, western brand of Christianity than I think most realize. Please allow me to explain.You see, God has two ways by which He governs His moral creatures such as man, one is called legal and the other is called gospel. Now legal is the method that God must use to govern those who choose to be self-centered (selfish). This is the rule of law. This type of government is based on the enforcement of two principles: 1) Reward – if you obey. And, 2) Punishment - if you disobey. This is the only way to control selfish people outside of using physical force: you must appeal to their selfishness. Legal control appeals to selfish wills by means of the use of hope and fear or what we could call threats and bribes.This was the way of the Old Testament. It operated by the external moral force of rewards and punishments—you will be blessed if you obey and cursed if you don’t (Deut. 11:26-28). This is also the way that human governments operate; they have a system of reward and punishment as their basis of control, with some governments emphasizing the reward aspect (if you obey you will have prosperity and a good life - bribe) and others the punishment (if you don’t obey we will make your life miserable - threat). And of course, some use both. Now this legal type of government is not wrong in itself; it is merely the necessary means of ruling selfish people. God gave Israel good laws that if obeyed would result in a just society, but because they were a selfish people, He had to give them a legal form of government (and religion). However, today our problem is that much of what is presented as gospel is in reality nothing more than legal religion. It’s what Winkie Pratney calls, “Santa Claus and Frankenstein evangelism.” Santa Claus evangelism presents the reward side of Christianity: “How many of you want happiness, peace, and joy in your life? Who wants to go to heaven? Who wants to prosper and be blessed? Then come to Jesus!” While Frankenstein evangelism presents the punishment side: “Some of you are going to die, I knew a man who didn’t tithe and the roof fell on him. If he would have tithed, perhaps we could have bought a pole to hold up the roof and he would still be alive. Awful things happen to those who don’t tithe. We will now take up the collection.” Now some evangelists use both methods in an effort to threaten and bribe people into the Kingdom, but the result is one and the same: an appeal to selfish human nature to use God as the means of attaining one’s own happiness. For the root of legalism is nothing less than this: an attempt to serve God from a motivation of fear of punishment and/or hope of reward. And I’m afraid that this is what motivates a great chunk of those who claim to be Christians today, at least in America. Turn on the television or radio and this is all you hear preached!But the gospel is radically different from this. Within it, God provides a way of ruling man without the means of legal motives. This is because the gospel is conditioned upon a person giving up their selfishness. Under the gospel, the individual is no longer motivated by the selfish desire to promote its own happiness; instead, its motivation now is to live for the glory of God! The basis of the gospel is a complete surrender of one’s self to God because of a revelation of His awesome nature and character as revealed through His Son Jesus Christ. Just as legal government is based upon the two motivations of reward and punishment, so the gospel is based upon two motivations--love and trust. It is to love and serve God for who He is, not for what He can do for you. It is to see God for who He is and to see ourselves for who we really are, and out of that, to turn ourselves over to Him to be ruled by Him because we love and trust Him. That’s the gospel!Every person is either under a legal or a gospel form of government. Consider two children, one obeys because he loves his father and trust him. While the other only obeys because he is afraid of what will happen to him if he doesn’t. Both say and do the exact same things, but each from two totally different motives. One is from a gospel motivation, and the other is legal.Much of the American church is legal, not gospel. Most “Christians” do not really love and trust God; they are merely “Christians” because they hope to make heaven and miss hell. I wonder how many would continue to “serve” God if they knew that hell was to be their lot regardless. Here’s a good test to see if you are serving God from a legal basis: What if God were to speak to you tonight and say something like this, “In my infinite wisdom, I have deemed it best that you go to hell.” Would you still love and serve Him? Would you trust Him enough to even go to hell for Him if He decided that would be how you could best bring Him glory? You see, we have not stepped over from legal unto gospel until the issue of our eternal destiny is not a factor in why we serve God. David prayed, “Do with me as seems good unto thee” (2 Sam 15:26). That’s the gospel: a total, unreserved surrender of all that we are to God, because we love and trust Him; regardless of what’s in it for us personally.Sorry to be so long-winded, but I consider the subject of legalism to be one of the most important, yet least understood matters of our generation. Everything concerning our relationship with God hinges on this matter of our motivation for seeking and serving God—is it from a legal base of hope and fear, or is it from a gospel base of love and trust. May God raise up an army of “Paris Reidheads” who will proclaim the difference between the real gospel and merely serving God for “ten shekels and a shirt.”

Billy7,You are right on my brother. You hit the nail on the head! This is exactly what I was trying to say but brother Billy7 put it way better than I did. Thanks Billy7. If you want to know the difference between legalism and obedience - read the post by Billy7!

Sister GrannieAnnie wrote:Quote:When "flesh" is mentioned so many times in the N.T., it is not always talking only about blatant 'sin', but 'any' deed that did not originate from the Holy Spirit and carried out IN Him. Flesh is just "us".In Chapter 7 of Romans Paul teaches about the flesh. He teaches about the inability of man to please God according to the nature of the flesh. Listen to what he identifies as the real nature of the problem.Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. In this verse he first identifies that there is nothing good according to the flesh. We are all born under the same conditions are we not? The next point that he makes is that; "for to will is present with me." Paul is stating that he desires to do good. His desire is to please God. Yet what is the nature of the problem that he identifies as the source of all his anguish? In the last part of the verse he states,"but how to perform what is good I do not find." Here is the problem for all who seek to please God according to the ways of the flesh. The carnal mind cannot please God. The carnal mind does not know how to do the will of God. The man who relies on his own thoughts will always fall short of the will of God. Listen to the anguish that Paul has experienced in his life. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Paul has experienced what life is like when one seeks to obey the law which is spiritual, yet he has come to understand that without the Holy Spirit, he is wretched. He has become a spiritually led man. He once was carnal. Now he sees the futility of his efforts everytime he submits to his flesh and not the Spirit. Anytime we like Paul submit to the ways of the flesh, it becomes the work of the flesh. We seek to establish our own righteousness just like the religious people of old. Rom. 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. What is Paul's evaluation of those of his time? They seek to do the will of God with zeal. Yet they are "ignorant of God's righteousness." Here Paul teaches that they do not know the things of the Spirit. What does Paul say about those who work according to their flesh? They are, "seeking to establish their own righteousness." Yet Paul also states that they, "have not submitted to the righteousness of God." This section of Scripture teaches the same thing that Romans chapter 7 teaches. The carnal mind is ignorant of God's righteousness. Yet, they were guilty of not submitting to God's righteousness. Now listen to Paul's solution to man's predicament.Romans 8: 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. The only way we can please God is by listening to our Counselor. Only the Holy Spirit knows the mind of God. Only the Holy Spirit can cleanse you from all unrighteousness. Only the Holy Spirit can give you the "mind of Christ." All those who submit to the ways of righteousness have "access into all grace through Christ" by obeying the voice of the Holy Spirit. Whenever we do not wait for the Holy Spirit's leading and work according to what we imagine God wants us to do, we are like Abraham and Sarah working out the details of bring forth a son "Esau" according to the ways of the flesh. Do you see that God has given us only one way that we can please Him? Do you hear what Scripture teaches?In ChristJeff