revivals, Art Katz

I have been reading some of the older posts on the forums and ran across this article written by Art Katz. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1950&forum=40&12 I understand what he is saying in this article but I am a bit puzzled. Some of you have noticed the post I made yesterday announcing that Katz will be speaking and teaching at the Fire School of Ministry in October. I "assume" that Katz was refering to Toronto in the article since he talked about "the blessing." (I am not wanting to debate the issue of whether or not recent revivals were of God or flesh as I imagine most of us are convinced they either were or weren't and I know it has been hashed out already.) Whichever camp you're in, it seems that most group Brownsville and Toronto in the same category. I stand to be corrected, but I believe Fire School of Ministry where Katz will be speaking was birthed out of Brownsville. I do know that Michael Brown is the president of the school and was one of the leaders in the Brownsville movement. I have listened to numerous messages by both men and deeply respect both of them. They are both Messianic Jews and I believe both of them are annointed and appointed of God. Yet, there seems to be a contradiction here. Perhaps Katz feels that one movement was of God and the other of flesh, this would clear up my confusion. Can anyone shed more light on this?Hope

He will be preaching at the church in Harrisburg, North Carolina called "Evangel Worship Center". They have a school there called "Fire school of Ministry". As for Michael Brown, you are right, that he was at Browsville. I don't think Art would compromise the message God gives Him, even when those who invite him to their church, may indeed be off the path abit. Listen to his sermon called "Sons and Daughters of God" he will answer your question from that teaching. Bryan :-)

From what I understand (and I could be wrong) but Art doesn't get invited to many American Churches to speak. I also feel that Art will speak the word God gives him, regardless of what church he is in, and it very well may shake the leaders of that church to the very core. (That is why he is not touring American churches and stadiums) It would not shock me in the least if Art spoke strongly against the type of things that happened at Brownsville. Or gave a message entitled True and False Revivals. Don’t be shocked if Dr. Brown and the rest of the Brownsville crowd are feeling shameful and foolish for the way they handled the gospel at Brownsville while Art is speaking. (and don’t like him so much afterwards) I personally feel Toronto Airport and Brownsville are different (and I could be wrong as I often am). I like Dr. Browns teachings (for the most part), I recommend his books on my website, and Bob Gladstone is one of my favorite (living) speakers, but no man is above rebuke, conviction, correction or Spirit inspired teaching . (this includes Art Katz as while as any other speaker or teacher) I agree with Grannie we must always test what anyone says or teaches against the Word of God and not put anyone on so high a pedestal they are beyond reproach.If Art thought that the Brownsville Revival was born of flesh and a false revival, might that be a reason for him to jump at the chance to speak at such a church and school? I will be looking for a copy of the sermon Brother Art speaks at FIRE School. I don’t expect a feel good, slap on the back , good old boy, ear tickler. 8-)

Don’t be shocked if Dr. Brown and the rest of the Brownsville crowd are feeling shameful and foolish for the way they handled the gospel at Brownsville while Art is speaking. (and don’t like him so much afterwards) I wouldn't be surprised if this happened. I remember in one of his sermons he recalled being openly rebuked in front of the congregation by the pastor of a large Charismatic church he was preaching at. While I'm not sure I get all of Art Katz, especially his escatology, I have found his preaching regarding the cross for the Christian to be intellectually refreshing and spiritually challenging in a good way. For some reason...he is one of many voices that God has really used to plow the soil in my heart. Having said that, I am surprised that his message of preferred suffering is being invited into a place that I thought only preferred blessing. Just when I am ready to stereotype a group of people they do something to upset my view of them.;-) Maybe someone in leadership at Brownsville found Art on this very website and was touched. MC

it's been on my 'mind' (the MRI confirmed, there's a little bit left there ... though we had our doubts )That's funny! Then when I was 39, I thought I knew even more than I did when I was 29, so of course, that would mean, I still felt I knew it all ... Hoy !I think I must have peaked already before reaching 39! :-P I would rather have thirty seconds of seeing than thirty years of preaching. I like this statement...although I rather thought these two things should be linked! I appreciate your candor Grannie...MC

. I also feel that Art will speak the word God gives him, regardless of what church he is in,as do II personally feel Toronto Airport and Brownsville are different (and I could be wrong as I often am). So do I, but thought I would be in a really small minority on that one.no man is above rebuke, conviction, correction or Spirit inspired teaching . (this includes Art Katz as while as any other speaker or teacher) I agree with Grannie we must always test what anyone says or teaches against the Word of God and not put anyone on so high a pedestal they are beyond reproach.totally agree. If Art thought that the Brownsville Revival was born of flesh and a false revival, might that be a reason for him to jump at the chance to speak at such a church and school?Absolutely, and I feel confident that brother Katz seeks direction from the Lord before accepting any invitations. But by the same token, I believe Dr. Brown would also seek God as well as do his homework in understanding any mans teachings and doctrines before opening up his pulpit or school to him. You just don't invite someone who opposes what you believe into a ministry that you are the head of. And I surely don't believe Dr. Brown would be so careless. I think this is more where I was coming from in my original post but I was really struggling for words when I wrote it.Then we can't discount that this is a totally divine appointment by God and both men are completely following His direction. Hope :-)

Brothers and sisters ~Let us pray that the Lord keeps us from speaking foolishly about things we know perhaps little about.I would first of all recommend, especially to myself, that we review various sources of the Brownsville and Toronto events, so as not to be swayed into deception on either side.If you listen to Gladstone, he speaks of how Brownsville started and how Brownsville ended, and how and why Michael Brown left to start Fire School. I think many of us here would be very encouraged, even challenged by the notions and convictions they upheld here. Thank God for His grace. And thank God for what He is doing in all of us, including Fire School.As far as brother Art goes, I feel as if I am his biggest proponent, and read and watch everything of his with great expectancy and thankfulness. He is indeed a man of deep passion for the Lord, for His Kingdom come and will be done on the earth. For that, and for the fact that he truly realizes that from which He came, and is grateful, I am as well.Furthermore, if you think it strange that he is going to teach at fire school, what would you think of him teaching at IHOP in Kansas City last August, with Mike Bickle introducing him?Praise God for both of these men, and may we all embrace the Christ which unites us all in Him.That is not to say that Brother Art did not bring a litany of hard-hitting, death-to-self messages (of which I had the pleasure of being personally in attendance) and that those were not appropriate for that time, place, and audience.But is it anymore of a message than we ourselves are in need of? Perhaps just as much in need to repent of our religiosity as they do of their charismatic excess? Oh, that God would look down in mercy on us all!And that He has, so let us be a Berean in the scriptures, but let us guard our love for the brethren the Jesus purchased with His blood, and not prevent the way for people to come unto Jesus by putting stumbling blocks in the way of people not in wisdom but in ignorance of the way ahead. God can do anything, and we should be thankful that the Lord would save us from our helpless estate, and pray for His continual working in us and all men.Praise God for His great love, may we always be found abiding in it and teaching others to do the same, for they will know we are His disciples in that way.In the words of Peter - let us love one another deeply, from the heart.

But is it anymore of a message than we ourselves are in need of? Perhaps just as much in need to repent of our religiosity as they do of their charismatic excess? Oh, that God would look down in mercy on us all!let us guard our love for the brethren the Jesus purchased with His blood, and not prevent the way for people to come unto Jesus by putting stumbling blocks in the way of people not in wisdom but in ignorance of the way ahead.In the words of Peter - let us love one another deeply, from the heartthese are excellent words, bro couchFurthermore, if you think it strange that he is going to teach at fire school, what would you think of him teaching at IHOP in Kansas City last August, with Mike Bickle introducing him?I must say, Bro, in hearing one of the sermons from there on this site, recently, I was quite surprised when I heard Katz mention that, in the beginning of the speaking ( that he was there via invitation of Bro Bickle ). I'd heard negative things about the whole "Kansas City prophets" stuff in years past ... but I really like the tone of your admonitions, concerning our own need and where we're at.Any group that would invite Katz has something to be recommended in them, in terms of desiring to press in.If you listen to Gladstone, he speaks of how Brownsville started and how Brownsville ended, and how and why Michael Brown left to start Fire School.Can you share as to where I might hear Gladstone ? is he included here on Sermon Index ? I'd be curious to hear this storyHaving said that, I am surprised that his message of preferred suffering is being invited into a place that I thought only preferred blessing. Just when I am ready to stereotype a group of people they do something to upset my view of them. Maybe someone in leadership at Brownsville found Art on this very website and was touched. this was stated by the other poster ( sorry I forget your name and can't see it right now )I too am guilty of stereotyping .. and certainly had formed views about 'brownsville' goings-on, never having been involved in anything remotely "charismatic", myself ...... However, when I've seen Steve Hill preach on T.V.( couple years ago ), I was quite impressed with his solidness in preaching Christ crucified, not only for salvation -- but for going on with the Lord.I'm sure there were terrible things of Satan that came through Brownsville .... but I'm also sure that there was true reality there, in power. The Lord never is beneath mixing Himself in with murkiness ( not that I, or the Lord for that matter, advocate murkiness ) ... otherwise He'd never touch mankind, the Church included, in all of its multifarious murkinesses.the BenIsrael fellowship up in Minnesota isn't without its murkiness, as I've heard Katz testify, and that in itself is the very 'place' church has in God's mind --- to bring us together to crucify the murkiness of the old man out of us, through rubbing against one another, and bearing with each otherbrother couch's admonitions cut to the heart of the matterthe love that we must grow in toward one another, is the only way we'll have love toward the despised Jews in the end timesbaruch

Can you share as to where I might hear Gladstone ? I can't tell you the exact message that was referred to but Gladstone has several sermons available at fireonthealtar.I too am guilty of stereotyping ..Me three and obviously in hindsight is what I was doing when I originally even posted this thread. I had stereotyped them both even though I have the utmost respect for both of them and have learned much from both. I made assumptions without facts. Interesting that this past week while listening to old messages by both of these men, what do I hear? Brown refrences Katz and Katz in "What is Apostolic" refers twice to an article or paper written by Bob Gladstone. It really blessed me to know these men are not opposed to one another and I apologize for even starting this thread.Hope

To the brothers that have followed my last post,Your meekness and humility to write truthfully about your situation speaks volumes of the character of Christ. For that, I am very, very thankful, for that is something we all could use more of, not only on this site, but in the church at large.So I'm thankful that you started this thread, because it brought out some good thoughts and has caused us all to look within and ask the Lord "try our hearts and see if there be any waywardness in them".The Lord is so good to us! His grace is new this morning and I am a thankful and needy child!As for Brother Gladstone, His messages are filled with LIFE. Sure, he is a bit more "charismatic" than perhaps we are used to, but his message centers on Christ being formed in His church, taking deep root in the hearts and lives of men, that we might be a witness of Him unto the nations.Every time I listen to a message of his, I am deeply stirred and challenge to pursue Christ. Jesus said Wisdom is known by her children.You can find them at this link:http://www.fireonthealtar.com/sermons/index.htmlI believe the one in which Bob talks a bit about Brownsville is called "A Cross to Power", but I would thoroughly recommend "Filled with the Spirit" and "Kingdom of Heaven". Also, he has a series on community that has some excellent insights from the Word.I agree, no man is infallible, but the Holy Spirit uses those who are available, humble, and who "tremble at His word.""Let all those who love His salvation (or His Yeshua) say "The Lord be magnified!""

thanks for the '411' on Gladstone, couch ... time to break down more of my stereotypes :)baruch

Gladstone's "Cross to Power" message is really strong --- here's a quote of him paraphrasing the Lord to the disciples in John 14:" the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me ... there's nothing in Methat he owns -- if he did own something in Me - I would not go to the cross - becausethat thing he owns in Me - would keep Me from that cross .. .He was able to say ..at the end of His day - it is over .. and I've given not one aspect of My heart to this Age - I am totally and completely dead - and when the Ruler of this world comes lookingfor something in Me - he will find nothing .. and therefore I will be able to completeMy course .... he is the Ruler of this world - but he is not the Ruler of Me ........"his dream, at the end of side 1 of the message ( 2 part message ) is so worth listening to, for anyone here with interest [ not a wacky dream ... really of Christ -- with a sharp point to it ]

another strong quote out of the first half of that message :"radical divorce from this Age .. so that you can live in the Glory of the Next .... the world has beencrucified to me .. and I to the world .. "