calling all greek scholars

thanks for your attention ;-)1 scripture 2 versions:Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;(KJV (above), LITV, ALT, EMTV, Geneva, Webster, Weymouth, Youngs)And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, (ISV, NIV, ASV (above), NASB, BBE, CEV, ESV, AMP, NLT)first version is first person plural, second is third person, could have called the thread 'us and them' really.i know this can go into the whole 'Is this the church in heaven?' debate (thats my ulterior motive,:-P after reading some of the recent stuff on this site and doing a bit of investigation myself, I'm on a knife edge between pre and post trib)look foward to readin the responsesmatt

Scholars? In the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king. :-D but, as a Bible student, from which grade I never expect to graduate in this life...Thanks too, for 'confessing' your ulterior motive. ;-) This is a verse which is usually contested just because of pre and post tribulation dispensationalists. I don't intend to enter into that discussion here. The reason that the different translations give either 'us' or 'men' is simply because those translations are following different families of Greek texts, known as textforms; yes, we're back to that discussion again.These families have been used to create 'eclectic texts' in which the 'editor' has tried to reconstruct what they believe the original autograph of, in this case, John actually wrote.Michael Marlowe's Bible Researcher website will show how different editors have decided. The page has this at Rev 5:9,10Rev 5:9. Omit "us" after "redeemed". L T A W WH N NARev 5:10. Read "made them" instead of "made us". G L T Tr A W WH N NA HF The key for the initials isS\tStephens 1550 (Estienne 1550)E\tElzevir 1624G\tGriesbach 1805L\tLachmann 1842T\tTischendorf 1869Tr\tTregelles 1857A\tAlford 1849 as revised in 1871W\tWordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870WH \tWestcott & Hort 1881NA\tNestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)HF\tHodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985The key people in this discussion areS\tStephens 1550 (Estienne 1550)E\tElzevir 1624from whom we get an edited text which is strongly committed to the Byzantine textform. Stephen's text is the one that was originally called the 'Received Text' which is behind the KJV and the NKJV.The other key people in this discussion areW\tWordsworth 1856 as revised in 1870WH \tWestcott & Hort 1881NA\tNestle-Aland 1979 (Aland et al. 1979)HF\tHodges & Farstad 1982 as corrected in 1985Westcott & Hort's edition of the Greek text is behind the RV and the ASV. Since their time there has been a small swing back towards a respect for the Byzantine text, but WH had no time for it at all. This is why the majority of modern (post 1881!) texts will not have 'us' in Rev 5:9.BUT, and this is important, there is a W here too. W is Christopher Wordsworth, a colleague and fellow supporter of W H Scrivener who strongly supported the Traditional Text. When W sides with WH et al against the Traditional Text it is wise to give it some thought.The original eclectic Greek text created by Erasmus was based on some 12 or so individual manuscripts, BUT Erasmus only had one copy of the Revelation and that had holes in it and was missing the last few verses altogether. In the language of the 'scholars' the Greek text behind Revelation is 'weak'; this is not my language!! If you wish, I can check exactly why Wordsworth took this decision, but maybe this is already deeper than you want to go.So what do we do with such verses? I have a simple line of action to these... I accept both variants and refuse to build a doctrine on either. :-D

philologosaccept both variants and refuse to build a doctrine on either.lol i like it very diplomatic, ok ill leave this verse in the neutral box in reviewing my theology on the pre-post trib debate.Thank you Annie and Ron for your inputmay the Lord bless you matt

lol i like it very diplomaticNot intended to be diplomatic, just wanting to remain open to what God might be saying...I use 'scholars' as I would any other tool. One tool may serve me well in one context but not in another. I am not afraid of my tools; I have nothing to lose but my ignorance. I choose when to use and when not to use them; the consequent 'finished' product is mine and I accept full responsibility for it. “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.” (James 3:1, NKJV)No man, who is familiar with this verse can afford to reject any gleam of truth from however unexpected a source.