"enforced" tithing?

I am not looking to start a debate per se, except to try to understand Biblically the difference between old testament, old covenant tithing and new testament church giving Biblical principles.This is a personal story as well and looking for thoughts for discussion, not sympathy.I attend a church and six years ago when I joined the church as a member, one of the agreements to becoming a member was to tithe 10% of your gross income. There are other agreements in addition which I think are fine, but this one I have been doing and not having a peace about the "agreement" part. The church we attend was renting a buidling, and also pays a senior pastor, another pastor and a secretary's salary, in addition to other typical church expenses. Recently the chruch we attend went and purchased a $400,000 church building and mortaged about $300,000 of this buildling. They planned on the mortgaging part on the tithing habits a year ago, but over the past year, many men have been out of work, some people, come and go and some have stopped tithing that are members. Now the church is hurting financially and not making ends meet to pay for their budget and the pastor is looking to meet with current members who have agreed to tithed but have currently stopped.I am one of them. I have wrestled with the "agreed" part to tithing vs. the "cheerful" giver of the heart part. I have faithfully tithed for many years to our local church, but lately have struggled with the local church structure and the money going to pay for new carpet, salaries, programs that do not serve the poor, widows, fatherless and minsitries that could use the money to reach the lost for Christ.I am supposed to have a meeting with my pastor this week to discuss what has changed. Finances have been very tight for my family as well and I have been learning more towards providing for my family first (so that I am not worse than an infidel) vs. giving to the local church. I believe in giving my money and hold it loosely, but lately I have had to use my credit card a few times to feed my family... I'm not liking that!Is the tithe supposed to go the Local church? or was that something that was created along the way after ACTS and the new testament church model?Has anyone wrestled with this type of situation? Is this typical? or am I just not obeying Biblical tithing and must obey God here and deal?In Christ,Doug

I do believe in tithing but have never heard of a church making a tithing agreement. That sounds controlling and manipulative. God loves a cheerful giver. I don't believe he would be pleased with a forced offering. Does your church tithe? It is hard to teach what is not practiced. Our ministry began tithing early this year and it is amazing what has happened with the tithes and offerings coming in. Some areas we sow into include Sudan, missionary family in Scotland, Samaratains purse, a local christian listener supported radio station and will likely be adding voice of the martyrs and gospel for Asia next month.Hope

Our church is non-denominational and has spiritual covering over one pastor and I believe they tithe to this pastor currently in some way. I'm not sure though. I do know that our church gives to regular missions, but not sure if this is 10% of what the church brings in every week.In Christ,Doug

doug,I am really analyzing the whole tithing concept. Something about our huge buildings and nice furniture, and lack of witnessing and holiness isn't right. Not just my church, but pretty much most all that I know of.I keep reading the word whore in OT and NT and this is what I think it means. No one taught me this, so weigh it to see whether or not the Spirit gave it to me. What does a whore do? She provides temporary pleasure in exchange for money. Isn't this what the majority of churches are doing right now? Offering you a little good feeling, just a little pleasantness, and we give the money. Something about this isn't right. How about the size of our buildings vs. the size of the prayer meetings? Think about these things and read these verses. I can't see anything else but what is going on right now:Ezekiel 16:24 "That thou hast also built unto thee an eminent place, and hast made thee an high place in every street."25b "(Thou)hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms."33 "They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy gifts to all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom."As far as the local church goes, I'm with John Rice on this one. He said to ask of the Lord what to do with our tithe, not your pastor. John taught that your tithe may partially or completely be given to anyone that is getting out the gospel. But again, it is important that we ask of God.Ezekiel 13:2-3 "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!"7-8a "For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which... cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man..."

I have wrestled with the "agreed" part to tithing vs. the "cheerful" giver of the heart part. I have faithfully tithed for many years to our local church, but lately have struggled with the local church structure and the money going to pay for new carpet, salaries, programs that do not serve the poor, widows, fatherless and ministries that could use the money to reach the lost for Christ.After reading your original post, I want to make sure that the issue here is enforced tithing...and not one of volunteer obligation. From your posted testimony, it is unclear to what degree you have given your word specifically to your pastor that you support his decision to assume a high debt load. An agreement to tithe is not an empowerment to build. My response does not address the scriptural validity of tithing per se, but any possible ethical obligations you may or may not have entered into...namely giving explicit, (not implied) authority to your pastor to borrow $300K to buy a new church. I hear similar testimonies to yours expressing "buyers remorse" more and more from churches these days. I don't have any stats but I'd be willing to guess that the boom 90’s boosted the “faith” of many churches in America. Now that the economy is comparitively sluggish, the accepted doctrine of “build it and they will come” is being tested. What happens when a congregation has discovered they have overbuilt? How do we respond when unemployment rates go up within the ranks of our churches? Do the people leave leadership responsible to the lendor alone? Personally I am mystified how easy it is for churches to get large commercial loans merely based on the giving records of unsigned parties. Clearly the equity value of the real estate is allowing the bank management to approve of these situations.Like I said, I wasn’t sure how deep you were in your churches decision to purchase it's building. I feel there is an ethical obligation if you have promised specifically to help service heavy debt obligations that were dutifully and fully disclosed ahead of time. If your promise was key in the church’s decision or key in their authority to negotiate with the bank, then I think you carry an ethical, (but obviously not legal), responsibility to help find a solution.Now, there are many situations where the congregation was left out of these decisions, where optimistic leadership made unilateral or deacon level commitments to a creditor on behalf of the whole church. In this case I do not see that there is an ethical commitment...though there may be other personal grounds to continue giving. It is important to note: A signed agreement to tithe can not be construed into carte blanche authority for church leadership to enter into debt agreements on behalf of the tither. I feel strongly that church leadership is obligated to disclose all debt to the community antecedently.Here are my two suggestions for negating any possible ethical obligation.1) If you feel the debt load is an unacceptable risk to your family then ask the church for a period of recovery for you. If there are too many families asking for the same thing then apparently the church is in over it's head, and it may be a responsible course of action to put the property up for sale. I see no reason not to approach the families in the church, with or without the pastor’s permission, with a plan to have another church assume the building lean. After all, if you have agreed to your part in this debt, then you have your say in paying it back.2) Ask for release from your commitment. If the church is able to meet it's obligations without you, you might be surprised how benevolent people will be.In the end, you can only do what you can do. While being mindful of ethics, I believe your first and legal commitment is to any personal or business debt that bears your own signature. The church leadership knew when it signed the debt load that they had only the verbal commitments of its people to warrant the ability to pay. Indeed, the bank understood this as well. I’ll reiterate my personal conviction, that if the church is on a default vector then it is probably time to market the property. For instance, my own church sold its property to the city government to be used as office space. I realize finding such a buyer could present it’s own challenges and still might not remove 100% of the debt…but it will make the problem much more manageable. One day we Americans may yet learn that stepping out on credit is not faith. I pray this wisdom finds its way into those churches that accept unspiritual burdens into the community.God bless you Doug. Keep us posted brother.MC

I'm not asking you to rebel!! I think your words are very helpful, Crispy. I agree that there are higher principles to consider. I think of those who under deception submitted themselves to a cultic, controlling type of organization. It is wrong to remain in bondage to anything that becomes unethical. I also have come to understand that the tithes were compulsory donations – like our taxes – given to support the nation Israel, including the needy. We already give taxes (obligatory) to help the poor. However, the gov’t can’t do a satisfactory job. Besides that, we have no personal connection with the needy. And that means, we never get a chance to be as Christ to them. I suspect that when we give primarily to institutions and its buildings, as expected of us, we lose touch with those who really need our help. We may also be enabling a system to continue that shouldn’t, or that doesn’t need more money. I have come to believe that, as much as possible, we must use our resources to DIRECTLY touch people – not only through organizations or institutions. Personal gestures of giving enables us to build a relationship with those to whom we give. A small example: For me to purchase an appropriate book and hand it to someone personally (whether in or outside of my church) would be more affective than merely contributing a financial donation to the library. I can discuss the book with the person, hold them accountable, and continue a relationship that promotes growth. ( I learned this from experience)OTHER CONSIDERATIONS: Where our money goes is where our heart goes – which could become be a misplaced affection. Worse yet, we may gain a false sense of security – that we have received God’s approval - because we are doing our “duty”. We missed the point of giving. We must use our own minds to CONTINUTALLY judge these things- and CONTINUALLY examine our motivation for giving. Red lights should be flashing in our mind as soon we are sensing some pressure or obligation. Even a legitimate need does not necessarily remain a need forever, even though the leaders say otherwise.Diane

I don't believe that pressure should ever be put on Christians to give.I was in a Revival Service , and the Pastor said, Let's bless the Evangelist with I believe he said $10,000. He said this like it was a $1.00.When pressure is put on, all it does is make the poor feel bad because they don't have it to give.We have some poor people in our Church, and my heart reaches out to them.The Holy Spirit showed me to give some money to a Mother, to buy some clothes for her Children.I was to specify to her that it was to be used for this purpose.I didn't do this in front of anyone, but just her.Krispy, I feel like the last Scripture that you used in 2 Cor. 9:7, is very appropiate for Christians, today.Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let hime give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 2 Cor. 9:7.God Bless all of you.I really do love this site.I have learned from you, and been blessed.Nellie :-)

At my church if one wishes to be considered a member in good standing, is required to tithe. All those who wish to hold official ministry positions are required to tithe. My tithing is pretty much modern day circumcision. I do it because if I did not, many would be offended that I don't, and would have nothing to do with my ministry because they would consider me "cursed." However, if I had to choose between tithing vs. keeping my family fed, I would choose keeping my family fed... even if I did believe tithing was required under the New Testament. The principle behind tithing in the OT was in order to keep people fed. It existed to feed the priests, Levites, and the poor. It did not exist in order to put clothes on people's back, to help in maintaining the temple building, or even putting clothes on the back of others. If the temple needed upkeep, they took up special offerings for that... they did not use the tithe for such. Therefore, it is unmerciful and contradicts the purpose of tithing if in order to properly keep your tithe up, you are required to take food off your own family's table. Jesus said the weigthier matters of the law are justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the principles that are to govern which is of chief importance. Because these matters are of chief importance and more weighty, David and his men ate consecrated bread from the tabernacle that was for the priests alone to eat from. But, because they were without, the priest gave what was actually his by law to help feed the hungry. Of course, there would be those false teachers out there that would attempt to deceive the poor, and would say that if you are poor, the way to get out of your poverty is to tithe. They might even label that this is "kingdom economics" and quote you many success stories of people who could not afford to tithe, and did so anyway. Of course, they never bother to mention the many people who did such and never got out of poverty. Feeding your own family take's priority to feeding others. Such is what the law teaches. Remember, the letter kills but the spirit gives life. It is against the spirit of tithing to take food you and your family need out of your own mouth to put it in the mouth of somebody else. At the same time though, feeding your family should not be done in luxury. Like, you might view coffee as essential to breakfast. However, getting a Grande Mocha Frappacunio at Starbucks would not qualify as such. Such would break the spirit of the law.

From your posted testimony, it is unclear to what degree you have given your word specifically to your pastor that you support his decision to assume a high debt load. As a member I never spoke up to the elders about 'buying' the church, but was not in favor of it because of what God was showing me about money, home church and other related topics. I guess I gave my non-verbal support by not speaking against it. I assume the leadership was going to do what they wanted and not listen to one person who was against buying a building. I have always had trouble with church buildlings, finances in the church, not going to more eternal purposes. I am learning here, as well as humility.In Christ,Doug

Hi dougkristen...!I experienced a similar situation a few years ago at the church that I attended at the time. The pastor had begun experimenting with some radical elements of the modern "prosperity" message (which I totally disagreed with). He attended one of the "faith" conventions in Tulsa (home of the Copelandites, Haginites and Duplantisites, etc...). Of course, the bulk of the messages at the convention concerned physical "blessings" (money, houses, cars, etc...). One of the preachers told the listeners that he sometimes asks his congregation to hold their offerings above their heads. Then he tells everyone to look around. He then asks, "Now, are you embarassed of your gift to the Lord? If so, then reach into your pocket and give more!" This prosperity preacher also boasted that he checks the tax rolls to see who is giving the most, because "those who give the most are always blessed." So the pastor came home and did the same thing! Of course, in our church, this caused quite a bit of offense. The Pastor even called people into his office to discuss their giving habits (or what he thought was a lack of giving). Eventually, he called me into his office too. He asked me why I was not giving more to the Lord. I told him that I am extremely dedicated to my tithe -- but that I usually pay it in cash, using unmarked envelopes. The pastor looked at me quite skeptically. He asked, "Well, what am I supposed to tell people who ask me if you are paying your tithe?" I told the pastor, "Well, you can tell them that it is none of their business. Tithing is between me and the Lord." I explained my beliefs about giving -- that it should be done in secret, and without an "investment attitude" (wanting to give so that you can get). The pastor became quite frustrated by my comments. "So you don't think that anyone should know what you give?" he asked. I told him that I don't feel that I need to give an account to anyone of my giving other than God -- and God alone. I told the pastor that he should trust me at my word (that I do indeed tithe), and that if he doesn't, I could always go somewhere where the pastor is more trusting of his congregation.The pastor rather quickly said, "No, no...don't do that! I am just wanting to see if people are tithing or not." I suggested that he might consider the notion that some people might hold the same idea that I do about giving in secret. He dismissed that, saying it sounded very "silly." Eventually, the pastor became quite engrossed in extreme beliefs about the modern prosperity movement. He started stating that all sickness is the result of hidden sin, and that if you are truly serving God with faith, your shoes. clothes, cars, houses and even your body will never get old. He even began teaching that your material possessions are a direct reflection of your spiritual life -- the more you have, the more faith you have. This became one of the factors that made me realize that my beliefs differed too much from the church. I eventually left that church and began attending another church in the town. You might let your pastor know what you believe about giving -- whether you think that it is a private matter or not. I just don't like the thought about giving so "proudly." It reminds me so much of the rich men giving at the Temple out of their abundance. :-)

Thanks for sharing this... I'm not alone..My pastor has said that "we are always tithing and that we either tithe to God or ourselves/satan, etc." And that we too will reap the consequences if we don't tithe, such as problems with finances... It's like tithing is a magic pill which I have believed for quite some time... If I tithe, my finances will be great and I'll be fine... (which has not been the case for me even when I have been tithing) or God will curse your finances because you are sinning against God and stealing from Him by not tithing to your "local church" that you attend and are a member of...A year ago when I was in our monthly men's meeting before we the church buildling was purchased we had to fill out a piece of paper stating what we would be tithing each week so that they could budget their church expenses. About 3 months ago when I was not tithing due to shortages of finances, the financial deacon confronted me on my "change of giving patterns" and asked me what's up. I said, that I had to use my credit card to buy groceries and that I have been hurting financially but that I would give as able... I have a phone meeting with my pastor this Wednesday to 'discuss' this. Pray for me.I'll keep you posted.In Christ,Doug

I said, that I had to use my credit card to buy groceries and that I have been hurting financially but that I would give as able...Perhaps it is the church's responsibility to help YOU. I think that is a biblical principle. (I'm trying to find the reference.) If people give properly, then no one is in need. It is not wrong to be on the side of need. But it is ALWAYS wrong to give out of obligation. It is wrong for anyone to use manipulation, domination, and control to squeeze money out of people. To give to the church out of obligation and pressure is like spiritual adultery - betraying your loyalty to God. God says it is wrong, wrong, wrong. So you would be just as sinful to give if God doesn't want you to, as the pastor who seduces you to give. If all Christians followed these Biblical principles then there wouldn't be so many false prophets on the loose. Diane

Amen, Diane.God BlessNellie :-)

I find the examples of George Muller and Hudson Taylor inspiring. Niether believed in asking people for the finances for their ministries - They asked God instead.A true ministry is God's project, not man's. As it is His project, I can't believe that He will not provide for it - even if a few church members are "unfaithful" in their giving.For me, if church leadership needs to press the congregation for money, they are declaring they don't trust God, or that they are not working on His project....perhaps both.Sadly the enforced "giving" issue has given Christians a very bad testimony. Many non-Christian's sincerely doubt the integrity of Christian organisations. Some of these may otherwise have been reached with the gospel.Interestingly, the majority of the instructions Jesus gave the 12 He sent to announce the Kingdom, (and later the 72) had to do with the handling of finances. It looks like Jesus saw the mishandling of (or depending on) finances as the biggest threat to the preaching of the gospel.PassingThru

Jesus saw the mishandling of (or depending on) finances as the biggest threat to the preaching of the gospel.What a loaded statement! So, it is not merely a case of wasting our money when we give indiscriminately, or even of building unnecessary buildings. It is a case of damaging our faith - our most precious commodity - more precious than gold. And it is a case of violating God and his purposes. I was deeply troubled by the earlier examples of spiritual manipulation within the church. Surely God is not blind to this. There will be consequences. We can do our part by not enabling the problem through our passive compliance, and by seeking God and his ways with all our heart, soul and mind. If we are free from the praise and criticism of man, we will not be swayed so easily.And, we can survive quite will without our church - even if we were excommunicated for "disobedience". We don't need to feel like God is going to punish us if we don't comply with the leaders' wishes. Diane

I know first hand of a ministry that takes an offering after almost every service. It has been said at this place that you should always give the people a chance to be blessed by giving them a chance to give to the Lord. Often the offerings are very small.This same ministry buys bus tickets for people who are stranded. It also buys meals and sometimes motel rooms for hitchhikers and others who are in need, of which there are quite a few. Once, there was a stranded lady with a toddler and a new born baby. There were airplane tickets bought to get them all back to Minnesota from Pennsylvania. In doing all this often there is no money at hand. It flips me out watching this but the Lord always provides.In saying all this, I believe that Jesus has fulfilled the law of tithe but I'm ever so glad to see someone give his or her tithe when this ministry is up against the wall.It's only what is done for Christ that will last.In Christ,GaryE

The Pastor even called people into his office to discuss their giving habits.Perhaps it is the church's responsibility to help YOU. I think that is a biblical principle...It is not wrong to be on the side of need. I believe some pastors should reflect on the influence they have on the conscience of sincere Christians. Some pastors can wield their spiritual authority to make Christian men hesitant to provide for their own families or provide for neighbors in need because apparently the Kingdom needs new carpet.It's uncanny. Some university should do a psychological study on this phenomenon. MCThanks Gary for an encouraging testimony!

Some university should do a psychological study on this phenomenon. I think it's been done: Uncovering churches that abuseAbusive ChurchesSpiritual Abuse Does this help?Diane