Was Kathryn Kuhlman even Saved?

Dear Brethren,Sorry for my straight question, but when I look at her ministtry, I doubt whether she was saved at all. Here's why: 1) Elevating the Holy Spirit above the Other Persons of the Trinity, knowing that the Bible says that "He (Holy Spirit) will glorify me(Jesus)" (Joh 16:14) is only one place that she falls into error. 2) Propagating the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena, that has absolutely no Biblical grounds.Then there are the healings she was known for. There are two sides to this. The one is that many that she claimed to heal in her meetings were found false after investigation.On the other hand there were also healings done, but with this background the question arises:"By whose power did she heal?" and "How did she know when someone was healed, as was her habit: to call out someone from among thousands of people and say "in row 16 someone is healed from cancer".These are just a few thoughts, but the Bible commands: "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are from God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1)In the light of this evidence I am convinced that she knew not the Jesus of my Bible and she preached not the Gospel that Peter and Paul preached.May the Lord Himself teach us and give us ears to hear and minds to discern and hearts to seek Him for His own sake.In His love,Gery

Well, I'm the judge of no man, or woman in this case. However, I do know that David Wilkerson said that she was a godly woman, and spoke in many of her crusades.

Kathran Kuhlman was from a little town down the road a bit from my city called Concordia. Her father was killed when she was a girl- run over by a car as I recall and from there on she began persuing God. I have read many books about her life. All that I know of. it seems to me that she really loved God. She had strange ways though. Far be it from me to condone them. From what I read she had a deep intimacy with God. She got into some bad relationships that were sinful and eventually got out of them. She married a man who left his wife. She had to end that. Its a long story. But after he was gone she just (as I understand those who wrote about her) wanted God to be her husband. She found in Christ the fellowship that would replace the man she loved and lost. This deep intimacy with God was at the foundation of what would come of these things. From this came the concept that a person could sit in the presence of God and that that presence could become tangible. It may not have started with her- but it would certainly be proliferated and eventually produce some of Benny Hinn's teachings. You may have heard him say, "THERE GOES THE ANOINTING..." These concepts, as I understand them, are rooted in the belief that an intense prayer life brings a tangable presence of God. When I used to follow these things in the early 90's I recall Tozer being quoted a lot. It really comes down to a hybred form of Christian Mysticism. I went to a meeting in New Orleans in 1993 and sat by a Catholic Charismatic New Ager. Whoa! I thought- boy, people can really get messed up. Hence was born a modern "experience based" Christianity. People look for an "experience" or "manifestation" of the Holy Spirit. The door flys open to laughter, drunk in the Spirit, etc. etc. When the emphasis comes of of the New Birth everything goes crazy. When men are not expected to repent. When folk are not expected to yield the fruit of the Spirit unto holiness. When spirituality is measured by who falls when you lay on hands. Things get out of whack.Are they sincere? Probably. Do they think they are doing God a service? Probably? Has God used them. Yes. Do we follow everything they did? Definitely not.

Are they sincere? Probably. Do they think they are doing God a service? Probably? Has God used them. Yes. Do we follow everything they did? Definitely not.What a wise man you are! :-D I never quite recovered from the "Daughter of Destiny" biography from sympathetic Jamie Buckingham. The concept of using 'slaying in the spirit' as a disciplinary tool to keep platform associates in line disturbed me deeply.

I never quite recovered from the "Daughter of Destiny" biography from sympathetic Jamie Buckingham. The concept of using 'slaying in the spirit' as a disciplinary tool to keep platform associates in line disturbed me deeply.Yes. She also seemed to believe that her father was saved although she was never quite sure if he was born again. My, how we come to terms with things. As a new Christian freshly filled with the Spirit I was attracted to the 'power' and manifestations that were said to have taken place. I would hear stories and really go after it. WOW, "you mean people fell out in the Spirit as she walked through the kitchen the power of God was so strong on her?" I would think, "I want to be just like that!" It reminds me of my uncles telling stories about their youth and their sensational adventures. We would look at them as kids all attentively. WOW, "you mean your car would pop-wheel-ees?" I want a car like that when I grow up. Now I'm content to just get where I'm going. Nothing fancy- just functional. And so it is with these things- they come off as fancy- but are they functional? Not in a pragmatic sense- but in terms of the right presentation of the objectives of the Holy Spirit in the earth. I could care less about popping wheel-ees, is anyone being born again?

It seems that not much has changed on this forum. I love and bless each and everyone of you as my brothers and sisters in the Lord but I can honestly say that I feel sorry for you. To judge a work that has yielded incredible fruits simply because of you deem as extremes which followed? Come on! Isn't this going clearly against Johnathon Edwards treatise on how to judge a move of God? (i.e. that it is not to be judged by the manifestation that accompany it) Not that I am using Edwards as scripture but many of you dear brothers and sisters would quickly misquote him as evidence AGAINST other moves of the Spirit. As for the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena . . . why even bother arguing. Search the scriptures without a bias and you will quickly see that bodily reactions to God's presence are nothing strange or abnormal - certainly their were no "catchers" or "towel girls" in apolostolic times, or terms such as "slain in the Spirit" - but the phenomena more than likely happened with regularity. Look at the history of Revival which you all praise - Hebrides, Wales, Cane Ridge, 1 and 2 Great Awakenings - physical prostrations were common in all of them. And NO they were not all the results of extreme conviction - Wesleys journals record prostrations that included esoteric laughter and joy - Edwards speeks of prostrations caused by a foretaste of judgement, and then other caused by a foretaste of HEAVEN. If we would stop majoring on minors we could get a whole lot more done for the kingdom. As for emphasizing the Holy Spirit - read the life of Evan Roberts and study the 1904 Welsh Revival and you will see that the Holy Spirit was exalted and praised. One of Roberts 4 requirements for heaven sent revival was an acknowledgment of the Holy Spirit as God - (among other things). And many in his day criticized him for this - however their names are mostly forgotten and their criticisms silenced, history proved the reality of what God did!My point judging a man, woman, or ministry simply by physical manifestations that accompany their ministry or by one or two doctrinal differences (study Whitfield and Wesley and observe the sharp disagreements they had) is immature, shallow, and superficial. Judge by the fruit of her ministry - which I believe is good. I am not a Kathryn Kuhlman historian but I have definitely seen some of the good fruit produced from her life and ministry.I honestly don't expect this post to change the minds of those dead set on retaining their views. I have posted enough in the past that has gone unnoticed. I love and bless you but beg you to re examine your ways, and hearts. How will you ever receive the revival you pray so fervently for when it comes? What if strange phenomena accompany it (like it has in every major revival)? What will you do then? Will you be on this site criticizing it? I for one want to be right in the thick of it! I don't ever want to be one sitting on the shore shouting orders to those in the boats - I want to be right in the middle of what God is doing!Please attempt to hear my heart in this!Burning,Jeff

I could not have asked for a better illustration of my point. A one sentece answer with no backing but a bias - I'm sorry. If you can prove it to me from scripture than wonderful. If all you have to offer is an unbiblical cessationist or border line cessationist bias and a concensus orthodoxy than I'm sorry but that just isn't good enough. Listen I'm trying to reason with you - but no one seems to be open to that here. My posts are generally answered with a pridefully poetic "I am a watchman on the wall, Purify the Temple!" type of answer - I'm sorry but that just doesn't work. People who are out doing the work of the ministry and laboring, seeking the Lord with all of their heart, white hot burning with passion who have criticisms-that's one thing. But swivel chair critics who thumb through their KJV, and concordance from behind a computer - people with slick religious sounding answers - well they just bug me. Why? Because I used to be one! My dead brothers and sisters I ask you honestly to forgive my sarcasm, and please hear my heart. The scripture does warn us to not believe every Spirit - but this indicates that there is a Spirit we should believe. My fear is that most people are too afraid of receiving or believing a false Spirit that they reject the true. I'm not afraid of receiving a false spirit. I am a son, not an orphan. When I ask my Father for the Holy Spirit, there is not some super demon in the heavens who snatches up my prayers and sends down a counterfeit. I am not a prosperity preaching, purpose-driven, kind of guy - I abhor those things. I am simpy giving you a clear warning to be careful how you judge the things of God. If you were to use the exact same criteria of judging ministries on the life of Jesus he to would come up as a false prophet - if you're honest with yourselves (theres a novel idea) you know this is true. Burning,Jeff

While asking you to forgive my sarcasm I refered to you as my "dead brothers and sisters". I'm sorry it was supposed to read "My dear brothers and sisters". That makes a world of difference! SORRY! I know you're not dead - my mistake!Burning,Jeff

Hi Jeff,I am a classical pentecostal, I just have a pressing emphasis on the new birth. I have seen all the other stuff and have watched the people remain unchanged in most cases. I have seen things that would scare most people. Yet, were they changed? On a more tolerant side I used to say, "I don't care if they go down in the gifts as long as they get up in the fruits." Surely there will be excesses everywhere. We need to keep our focus on new birth and infilling of the Spirit (to some that is one and the same) ;-)God Bless,-Robert

Krispy,I do not want you to get the wrong impression from me. I have been doing as our brother Neil suggested and protesting with silence - yet every now and then I allow my "self" to get the better of me. I am sure that I spoke to critically and harshly. If I did I apologize to you. I did not in anyway mean to assume I know your heart and make a blanket judgment concerning you. Yet it seems that is what many on this site do on a regular basis! For instance a few months back there was a post entitled "False Prophets Reprinting America is to young to Die". I soon found the "False Prophet" being referred to was a dear friend and former professor of mine named Dr. Larry Martin. The poster knew nothing of Dr. Martin personally, I do. In fact he is one of the most humbles, passionate, and prayerful men of God I know. Yet our shoot from the hip criticisms place a cultic stigma on an individual who is in fact an incredible blessing to the church. Do you see my frustration? I apologize for being to sharp with my tongue - thats something I have to be careful of and I blew it this time around. My only fear is we could completely miss what God is doing - or learning from what He has done, be demonizing the leaders of these movements. I am fully aware that there are counterfeits out there - yet a counterfeit only proves that there is a real. I would not reject a real 100 dollar bill simply because there are counterfeits out there. Rather I would look at the tell-tale signs to see wether mine was genuine. This is all I'm asking - that we look at the tell-tale signs, what Jesus called "fruit". Let us not look at flamboyant personalities, manifestations, or the like and make snap judgements - rather lets check the fruit. Yes this individual may have had some strange mannerisms, and perhaps some excesses - yet did the people closest to them see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives? Did their ministries produce long lasting fruit? Even the fact that some who were healed ended up dying doesn't prove that nothing happened! Jesus himself said, "Repent lest a worse thing come upon you." Lets just say the one to whom He gave that commandment did not repent and in fact became more sick - would that discredit Jesus' ministry? Certainly not! What would we say if Miss Kuhlman were to have prayed for the blind by making mud using here own saliva? We would deem such behavior as cultic. What if she made ministry decisions by rolling dice - we would find some cultic nuances to this as well. Yet these things are all completely Biblical. (I'm not encouraging their use, only saying that the Bible is filled with things that appear "weird" to us.) Leonard Ravenhill spoke well of Miss Kuhlman and even traveled with the "likes" of William Branham. David Wilkerson did rallies with Miss Kuhlman - these are men that we highly respect. Obviosly they saw while she was living that she was a Godly woman.As previosly stated my concern is simply that we will miss what God is doing or miss learning from what He has done simply because we are afraid of excesses and human vessels. Personally I fear lack more than excess. If it would be profitable (and if it would generate Godly, fair, discussion) I will start a thread dealing with strange phenomena that accompanied past revivals which we all hail as being "from God". Perhaps it would help us to see that "there is nothing new under the sun." Would this be a good or bad idea?I pray the Lords blessing on you, I apologize for shooting my mouth off and losing my temper . . .your brother,Jeff

Dear Brethren,This has really become a heated discussion. Do you realize that I had an aim when I posted this thread? Paul THOUGHT he was doing God a favour when he persecuted the church, but instead he was working against everything God was doing. He was a persecutor. Now, what changed Paul? What made him not only to stop what he was doing previously, but changed him into a vessel that God could use. Nothing short of a meeting with the living God. Who in turn made Paul to be a new creature. My question is: Was Kathryn Kuhlman ever really changed by God? Was she ever born again? Not who approved her or was influenced by her. Not if she was brought up in a Christian home. If a prophet/tess testifies falsely on ONE instance, he/she is a false prophet. What did she do to God's name if she prophesied falsely? Did God bring souls to repentance? Dont forget that God is in the saving business, not in the healing business. Jesus died to save sinners, not to heal the sick. He healed the sick before His death. Have you ever thought why there are so much worldliness in the churches today? Why people play with sin? Because they've gotten used to the wrong gospel! Narrow is the way that leads to life and broad the way that leads to damnation. In conclusion, May we put aside our opinions and preferences and even what our consciences and feelings allow us and let us "get dead serious with God", as Corrie ten Boom said once. Oh Lord send us true revival, show us Thyself!In His love,Gery

2) Propagating the "slain in the Spirit" phenomena, that has absolutely no Biblical grounds.John 18:1-7 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples. And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.