Homosexuality and the kingdom of God

Lahry, Your words radiate the aroma of Christ. Funny that you should post this! Just this morning I had been thinking that even in my two threads about homosexuals, we still barely reached heart of the issue –learning how to apply Christ’s command to love. I was thinking of waiting a bit and then revisit the homosexual issue under a new heading: “How to Love the Homosexual”. I think your post is like a foundation for that. We seem to be on the same ‘wave-length’ (or is it the Spirit?)As you say, until we UNDERSTAND our own falleness, we will never be able to understand the fallenness of other sinners. Consider this:If we were asked to leave all our friends, our familiar surroundings, our earthly securities and go to a foreign land with a different culture, speak a new language, act a new way, live among strangers who have “weird” ideas and who have been harsh and judgmental to us in the past, how eagerly would we go? I am trying to look through the eyes of the homosexual. Just like us, and like the Prodigal son, they too can only leave behind their familiar existence when it stops working for them, and when they know that there is something better. Our role: demonstrate that "something better" through our lives. We can only do that if we actually HAVE IT - God's mercy and love. Diane

It is so easy for us to stand in front of church and gloat that we are "not like that man". We also know what Jesus thought about the man who stood in self righteous deception.Is it not for the sick that the physician came? You're a man that understands that grace leads us to holiness, brother Lahry. There are many posters here who are putting that backwards.I appreciate your heart and your thoughtsbaruch

Here is a stiring true story in Christianity TodayWhen Homosexuality hits homeDiane

Brother Lawry wrote:Now, we see some of all of us in this scripture, so let's not go off on the homosexual alone here, if you don't mind.I see Paul warning the congregation that those who practice lawlessness will not inherit the kingdom of God. Listen to the words of Jesus.Matt. 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’And again,John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.Do you hear that in verse 35 that a slave does not abide in the house forever? Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Only those who submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit can put to death the deeds of the body. It is only through the increase that comes from God that one is enabled to overcome the flesh and death. The warning of lawlessness must be preached because it is the Life of Christ that saves those who live by faith. The Life is that abundance that overcomes Satan and this world.The OT examples are given so that we might not stumble as many of them did. Sodom and Gamorrah represents man without grace. The evidence of God giving them over to vile passion because they rejected Him is given to us as an example. Christ also judges. Psa. 1:1 \tBlessed is the man\tWho walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,\t\tNor stands in the path of sinners,\t\tNor sits in the seat of the scornful; 2 \tBut his delight is in the law of the LORD,\t\tAnd in His law he meditates day and night. 3 \tHe shall be like a tree\t\tPlanted by the rivers of water,\t\tThat brings forth its fruit in its season,\t\tWhose leaf also shall not wither;\tAnd whatever he does shall prosper. 4 \tThe ungodly are not so,\tBut are like the chaff which the wind drives away. 5 \tTherefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,\tNor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 \tFor the LORD knows the way of the righteous,\tBut the way of the ungodly shall perish. Christ is the Life for those who obey the Spirit and Christ is the judge for those who do not put to death the deeds of the body.In ChristJeff

The California Legislature on Tuesday became the first legislative body in the country to approve same-sex marriages, as gay-rights advocates overcame two earlier defeats in the Assembly.The 41-35 vote sends the bill to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.This is a sign of the times in which we live. This is reality. How then must we live?2Th. 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,Salvation comes through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.In ChristJeff

Upon reflecting on this issue I would like to be more precise on my comments.First, can God save someone who is homosexual? Yes!Secondly, is God's grace sufficient to heal such a man or woman from being a slave to this sin? Yes!Thirdly, can one who continues to practice homosexual behavior enter the kingdom of God? NoFourthly, can one who practices homosexual acts remain in fellowship with the believers? No. What is Paul's teaching on removing the leaven from the body of Christ? 1Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Cor. 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1Cor. 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 1Cor. 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”Paul not only talks of sexual immorality but also those who are covetous, idolaters, reviler, drunkards, and extortioners. You see if we say we are of Christ and yet the evidence of our faith reflects otherwise, we blaspheme the Holy Spirit. We say to the world that there is no hope in the transforming power of our God who sent His Son to the cross in that He might heal those that are His. We make His promise a lie for the world to witness. 17 Therefore\t“Come out from among them\tAnd be separate, says the Lord.\tDo not touch what is unclean,\tAnd I will receive you.”18 \t“I will be a Father to you,\tAnd you shall be My sons and daughters,\tSays the LORD Almighty.”This is His promise, the question is do we mix faith with what we hear?In ChristJeff

Quote by Lahry:Now, we see some of all of us in this scripture, so let's not go off on the homosexual alone here, if you don't mind.Quote by Lahry:“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1Cor. 6:9-10, NKJV)My Response: for the two quotes:As you very well know, the certain sin such as Homosexuality is in need of deliverance. Without going into detail, of this particular deliverance. As has been said is for those who want to turn from this activity in their life and receive freedom through Jesus who we all know died for all.Quote by Lahry:Then how dare we single out one particular "sin group" as "different" from us?My Response: for one quote:Lahry and roadsign, You! have Singled out Homosexual’s as a subject to talk about, in your postings in the Lounge. Members have simply responded.Quote by Lahry:And gloat that we are "not like that man".My Response to the quote:In our Threads we do not, gloat that we are "not like that man".Quote by Lahry:and cast the first stone? My Response to the Quote:Here, I have added further Scripture to your quote. After her accusers left, after saying to Jesus, ‘this woman was taken in adultery’ Jesus said to woman accused. ‘Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11. She said, No man, Lord.And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.’Quote by roadsign:As you say, until we UNDERSTAND our own falleness, we will never be able to understand the fallenness of other sinners.My Response to the Quote: This! (our own falleness) I believe, we do UNDERSTAND! Quote by roadsign:Our role: demonstrate that "something better" through our lives. We can only do that if we actually HAVE IT - God's mercy and love.My Response to the Quote:Only God can fill his people with Mercy and Love in his people.He does that very thing, to me for other people. Over and over. As I am sure he does in many people, who are His.He fills me with His compassion, His Mercy and His Love. I don’t pity, I don’t have sentiment.The following is to try to make you understand, that the intimate act between man and women is normal, in and under the correct circumstances.It is not meant, for misuse.So, what should we do with the people, who steal children, for perverted sex, drugging them, torturing them, and killing them for videos? For the pleasure of sick minded, people who want to see this, for their own sick desire. And all manner, of other activities of…………………….We need to wake up, to what is taking place in this WORLD! Of ‘all manner of suffering’.PRAY.Go into our closet’s, so to speak.Being led by the Holy Spirit in Earnest PRAYER, Intercession, on Behalf of, standing in the Gap for, not seen to be doing this, but doing it in private with God. We can be seen to praying at times, as sometimes we are in prayer groups. Or praying for people, who are present in person.God is the I AM.ellie

Sister ellie wrote:Quote by Lahry:and cast the first stone? My Response to the Quote:Here, I have added further Scripture to your quote. After her accusers left, after saying to Jesus, ‘this woman was taken in adultery’ Jesus said to woman accused. ‘Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? 11. She said, No man, Lord.And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.’Many Christians hear the first part of Jesus' teaching. Yet few hear what Jesus truly is teaching here about sin. Yes Jesus does not condemn this worman, but look to His command, "sin no more." There is forgiveness but there is also something much greater in this story and most do not understand it. Jesus says to the woman, "sin no more."Now listen to what Jesus does next,John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”This is the only way given that would enable this woman to obey Jesus' command. Jesus promised her and everyone around them that, He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”Paul teaches in Romans 5 that we are reconciled to God even when we were still enemies of the kingdom by the blood of Jesus. But much more we are saved by His life.This is the good news, not only the blood but the Life is given to those who follow through faith.In ChristJeff

Go into our closet’s, so to speak.Being led by the Holy Spirit in Earnest PRAYER, Intercession, on Behalf of, standing in the Gap for, not seen to be doing this, but doing it in private with God.Thank you Ellie, for these helpful words. Sometimes we focus on the sins of others and forget to pray first and formost - esp for God to work in us. Just recently a friend told me: Too often we try to control what we can't and fail to control what we can. In other words, we can't fix other people because we have no control over them, but we CAN give ourselves to God and let him work within us. I think that's the only way we can be used by God to love and influence homosexuals or any other sinners. Here is an article that helped me understand the homosexual, and how the church can help: The Not-so-Gay lifestyle from Christianity TodayDiane

In the article suggested by Sister Diane:4. Would they benefit from professional psychological or psychiatric care? Proper diagnosis and treatment of psychological or psychiatric needs can be a critical factor affecting change from many sexual struggles. There are those in the church who think a pastor ought not to make such a recommendation. Certain psychological and psychiatric conditions can interlock with a sexual struggle. Until these are properly treated, there may be a discouraging pattern of reverting into old sexual patterns in an attempt to medicate an untreated condition.I do not accept this view as this represents the empty philosophies of men.The man in the article revealed that he was given a choice. We all are given choices by God to obey and walk the narrow path or disobey and walk the broad path that leads to destruction.The witness chose Life over death. There is no other way. Jesus is the light of life and those who follow Him will not walk in darkness.In ChristJeff

I think that you raise a valid concern, for we can all to easily depend on man rather than God. If the church was good at understanding what's beneath the surface of people, and would minister to them appropriately, then there would be less need for the mental health profession. Sadly that is not the case. In fact, the opposite tends to be true. The mental health profession has to help set people free from damage they incurred in religous environments. (as you will see if you read further testimonies)Mental Health Professionals can see things that their clients cannot see in themselves - things that block them from moving forward - including trusting Christ. But as long as they are locked up, they cannot move forward. It is the person's responsibility to choose Christ - but the reality of the journey cannot be denied. Each person is very different from another. It is no different for homosexuals. We can't just lump them together as if their one problem that counts thier sex life. Some are really messed up, as the article points out Diane

Dear roadsign,Thank you for your kind thoughts towards me.I have to admit that I get upset about certain matters.I can associate with only the smallest amount, of what these people suffer.As I have not lived their kind of life.I have been subject, to other people thinking that they knew best for me.And all the while they didn’t. This caused more suffering to me. I attended a church for a very long time; they had no understanding of my unwell ness. I would have things said to me that caused even more damage.I know what fear is, total isolation, bereft of human company, even Christian company. I was untouchable.I did go forward for prayer, a lot.The saving grace, help, comfort, has been From Our Lord he is the one I relied on constantly, being in a position of no other help. Finding that He was my help.He is my Father.Sympathy is something that I don't look for. Yes, I have to admit that being acknowledged as a person, who is as entitled as any other person, to be simply treat like a human being. Having people, notice improvement is also a great encouragement.Not thought of as untouchable or a waste of time because, their prayers are not answered immediately. Or she must be doing, not according to your will God and that is why the prayer has not been answered. Must not go there as that could cost me time and she is not, you know. Just want a comfortable Christian walk. I saw it happen to particularly, two others.To not be able to go to Church for four years and not to be called on by the church to see how I am. Well it was probably a great relief that I was not in the midst, you know might bring the reputation of the church down. You have depression and you are classed as odd. How wrong they are.I will add here that the churches very much need, to have there eyes and ears opened to what the revival will bring into there churches. The revival they are asking for.Now being more well without the tablets that had been making, me very ill. He has led me to a church that preaches, what the revival will bring into the church. Thank you almighty God.And all the while that I have been unwell. God is the only one who stood by me and of course my brothers and my Mother and others who my Mother knows, who also pray for me.The fact road that you have a heart for these people is amazing and quite wonderful There are those who will have a very complicated, to be unravelled life.There will be different levels, in these people’s lives.Its the same in anxiety, fear, pain, suffering, I know some of the depths..The main thing that a Christian can do is Pray into the situation. We may pray for some years before we see the fruits of the praying. Sometimes we will never know what God has done for all the People, Community, and Country etc that we pray for.I find so much privilege in praying to Him in the Gap for others. He entrusts so much to us.I have learnt that there is so much that I don't know. Human beings are the most complicated commodities we can ever come across, including ourselves.Although we do have some whom God has refined. That have less complication who are given understanding and knowledge by God who leads them, being willing to be led by Him. I found early on in my faith to rely on God and not man. This has led me to pray to Him, he knows everything about me. It is He who does the most revealing to me, about me, this is a very Good thing because it is God alone who is judging me. Some of these things might be made known to others as we seek prayer or for testimony etc.There are of course, sometimes words of wisdom that God gives, from one Christian to another.He chooses how he will reveal, that which I need to know.Although I have had a lot of physical suffering, I have caused some of this by un forgiveness and all other words that attach to that.I have to let go, I have to forgive, I have to do a lot, of things. I need the help Of God. God is most of all, who we need.I need to be led by him and to let go of self, leading.I actually feel that, I can't let go of my leading because I see life at the other side of this, to be empty, dark, void. I think this is because the thing that is familiar to me is for me to lead, in make decisions, paying the bills etc. I am afraid to let go totally because I don't know what is at the other side. It’s like jumping in the deep end when your not a strong swimmer and having the fearful thought that you will not survive, but that you will sink. ‘The unknown.’You could liken much of what I have said, to Gay people. Complex and complicated and the need for God to do his Mighty works in their lives. As we pray for them, standing in the Gap. Humanly coming alongside as God leads, talking with them. God will choose people who he can gift with the ability, to come alongside these people.Your heart roadsign, seems to be maybe a heart and life that God can equip to meet the needs of these people. I know that my main calling, is in another area.To speak on my behalf, I have done and continually look to Him. He has done mounds for me, Glory to you Almighty God. He is mine and I am his. AmenHelp me dear Lord to let go of many things. Amen.ellie

While I think a valid concern has been raised - re the use of mental health workers, I posted the article mainly to give us, the CHURCH, some information for how WE can help. The more we learn how WE can help, the less there will be a need for those outside of the church. IMHO.The church has a hard task cut out for her. Unfortunately her ungodly behaviors over recent years -ex: angry protest marches and unloving responses to gays have marred her credibility. So now we have a big dividing wall between two opposing people groups.Unfortunately even the church is polarizing into opposing camps. Some respond to the harsh judgmental responses by going the opposite way - thinking that they love the homosexual by telling them that they are fine the way they are. That is hopeless. (Mind you, implying to any church attenders that they are good Christians when they are still lost in their sins is most unloving. There is no hope in that!) If we can, at least, try to break down the barriers of hostility, then maybe we can be better able to win the trust of those homosexuals who would like to be set free. Many feel hated and undeserving of God's forgiveness. Oh, how desperately they need to see that Christ loves them!!! Who's going to show them? Is that not the function of the church?It seems that the evangelical church's failure to be as Christ to homosexuals enables all kinds of opposing forces to gain momentum. I think the article above put out by Christianity Today for church leaders demonstrates a step in the right direction. Diane

My dear Ellie! Your testimony brought tears to my eyes. As I was reading I kept thinking: If I was suffering the shame and pain of rejection – ex homosexuality, and was craving for healing and a connection with a loving human, it would be Ellie. I would know that you would walk with me, weep with me, listen to me, pray with me, and not judge or reject me. You would tenderly touch my brokenness and give me hope. You would be as Christ to me. You may not feel called to a ministry as such, but, I suspect that God would not hesitate to bring someone to you who may need that kind of human touch. Your own trials might just be your richest assets – in God’s economy. God bless you. And thank you or sharing!!! Diane

I was in tears, as I wrote my thread. I constantly cried to God about the Church. What they did not realise was how much God, was present in my life and how much I revered him which I still do.After posting, I saw, you had all been busy writing threads.My Experience. With Psychiatric doctors nurses. Etc.I have been under Psychiatry and I was not listened to. I was wrongly diagnosed; if they had reduced the tablet I would have got better, instead they gave ECT.They realised two years later, while I was still sufferring. That instead of giving me ECT, that all they had to do at that time, was reduce and then remove the tablet that they said I had to take.I was made more ill through three tablets, misdiagnosed, given ECT, and suffered to the extreme with physical debilitation and short-term memory amnesia, I felt constantly suicidal, I could not go anywhere I was too ill, for more than 4 years. Until they finally took notice, of my even more worsening physical condition. One Psychiatrist, who is supposed to be one of the top psychiatrists in the country, did all of this to me.Apparently the day staff on the day ward did give their opinion, I believe this differed from the Psychiatrist’s, who went ahead with ECT. I now have a problem with my recall memory, which I already had through taking, one of those tablets before ECT.I am also now at risk because of the tablets, of developing other brain debilitating desease. We just have to wait and see if my brain deteriorates. It is serious but I thank God that i can also laugh at these rediculous cercumstances, under the name of medical care and of course the Manufacturers of tablets.Please God I truly ask you that these terrible things will not happen and that you will heal my brain of any damage.And restore to me life in abundance. Amen Glory to youAll this is why I have asked, as a Christian am I aloud to sue NHS Service.This was not just a mistake.My GP is in shock because. I actually went through many more side effects than I have written about.Two good Christian here in my home Town, who are reliable, have said yes I can sueAnother has said no.I have no trust, whatsoever in the, Department of Psychiatry. They have too much, un-questioned authority. They are a regime, they, are in charge.There is a Retired Christian Psychiatrist up North here and I believe more in the country. Who saw a lot, of patients in his time and trained a lot, of people to Council many kinds of problems. Perhaps Christian people might consider this kind of profession. To enable, people to come into the faith with Christian biblical way input I am not sure if fees have to be paid for this. I did not get to see any of them, as I could not get to the place where they hold this.ellieI look forward to the time, when God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and me, are going to have a wonderful journey.Hallelujah.

The sin of homosexuality is nothing compared to the awesomeness of God. Psychiatry is a hoax. Its a mans attempt to be God. No human will ever be able to heal anyones mind. Depression, anxiety, mental disorders, etc. are all results of sin on the part of the person or someone who has affected that person. Sin. There was no need for anti-depressants in the garden of eden. The Lord does not need us to fufill his tasks. We are placed on this planet for one reason alone. That is the total surrender of our lives in love and pure adoration and worship to him. Once we begin to think we deserve any kind of help besides what he offers we are being selfish and sinful. Purity and joy comes from redemption and sacrifice of our lives. Homosexuality is an abomination. Jesus had no patience for sin. Neither should we. Dont enable people. Dont make them believe they have time to start a "healing process" healing comes immediately when you renounce your sin. We are not promised tomorrow. The only way you can show love to people is by sharing truth. Dont coddle sinners. Be clear to them in love. There are no excuses that make sin "understandable" to God. Everyone has sin and excuses. Everyone has someone to blame. We are commanded to be lights. A light does not shelter darkness. It disperses it. To some it will seem that I am being col. Im not. I am being clear. Thats where a lot of Christians fail there neighbors. We MUST love people to the kingdom. That however does not involve making them feel good about their evil lives. We are commanded to HATE sin. Did you know that? LOVE the sinner HATE the sin. Be Honest. Jesus is not a pushover.