Is the Christ life in harmony with our nature?

sermonindex Sep 3, 2005

Below is a short piece, captured from the Random Articles facility. (Sorry I missed the author's name at the time.) I wonder if anyone else agrees there are difficulties, doctrinally, in accepting the author's theses?If so, using scripture, how would you frame either your objection(s) or a more correct way of presenting truth to the enquirer?'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live The Christ life is in harmony with our nature. The other day I was asked by a thoughtful, intelligent woman - one not a Christian, but who had the deepest hunger for that which is right - "How can Christ enter us and we not lose our individuality? This experience will destroy our personality; it violates our responsibility as individuals." My response was, "Your personality is incomplete without Christ. Christ was made for you, and you were made for Christ, and until you meet Him you are not complete. He needs you as you need Him. "Suppose," I continued, "that gas jet should say, 'If I take this fire in, the gas coursing through me will lose its individuality.' Oh, no; it is only when the fire comes in that the gas fulfills its purpose for being. "Suppose the snowflake should say, 'What shall I do? If I drop on the ground I shall lose my individuality.' But it falls and is absorbed by the soil, and with the coming spring the snowflakes are seen in the primroses and daisies." Let us lose ourselves and rise to a new life in Christ.'

sermonindex Sep 3, 2005

Coloassians 1"Everything was made for Him and by Him" Since when is it that Christ was made for us? It is the other way around...There are unbelievably contradictory implications with the assumptions that can be deduced from the thesis... FLAT OUT UNBIBLICAL!

sermonindex Sep 4, 2005

There are unbelievably contradictory implications with the assumptions that can be deduced from the thesis... FLAT OUT UNBIBLICAL!Could you explain a little more deeply from scripture, what you mean, please?

sermonindex Sep 5, 2005

first of all, brother read it with a grain of salt since, even though i grew up in a christian home, i don't believe i was ever in the process of being saved until a few years ago. so, this to say that some of what i say, bounce it off others.First and foremost, Christ was never made for us. Christ is sufficent by Himself, whether humans existed or not, or the World did or not. He still is part of that God-Head- that ever was, is and be. John 6 i think it is, makes clear of that matter. That passage from Colossians does not necessiate that the World be created for Christ's existence, or his coming into this world as a sacrifical Lamb for human kind. There are some mysteries here that I doubt we will ever know, may be not even in heaven. The mystery of salvation,- that Christ was designated for the slaying from before the foundation of the World- that mystery is what it is for me- a mystery. Let me take the issue from a different vantage point. What makes us human is that the Breath of the Living God is upon each human being. That by itself designates us as properties of the Living God for without breath we don't have consiciousness to know of ourselves that we do exist in THIS WORLD- now that is not to say we won't be able to have consiciousness in another- that i still have sorting through. This breath i believe was not just given to us for breathing as we know it today. I believe it was also the Spirit of God dwelling in fulness in its full glory within us. And once sin entered the Human heart, the glory departed which I believe rendered us dead - that is dead in consciousness to the knowledge and experience of the fulness of God within ourselves. - i can't emphasize how much of the property of God we are(property- really for a lack of a better word). I believe we could say we are not property of God- if God didn't demand of all Human beings and for that matter all Creation- that all submit and behold His glory- that God actually demands worship out of everything that He ever created,will create and has created. I believe you are right in stating that we will never be complete without Christ because we have lost essentially the most important component that makes us human- the Spirit of God that dwelled in Adam before the Fall. Christ by His blood enables that relationship to resurect again- hence, the verse you mentioned- It is no longer that I live, but Christ. i.e, Christ is the one who resurrects the Spirit of humans back to become in touch with God. PLEASE READ THE WHOLE PARAGRAPH NOT JUST THE FIRST LINE.I need Christ first and foremost- not so that my sins are forgiven - NO, it is SO THAT I MAY KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST THE SON. I only say that because, hypothetically speaking- if Sin did not render the relationship between God and every other being related to God dead- we would not need a Savior. But we do, and that Savior is not there foremost to give a cleansing- for the sake of Cleansing- he is there to restore what belongs to the Father back to Him. Otherwise, I don't need to be a follower of Christ- since I can start to believe Buddhism or Hinduism and go through the life-cycles until I reach nirvana. Dude, i said too much. I wait eaegerly to be corrected because i am sure there might be questionable things written. We will see.Listen to messages by Richard Owen Roberts. Of all messages i have heard from this site, he has the clearest and deepest explanation of salvation and other fundamental biblical doctrines. He is a revival preacher but well gifted and godly in his approach of doctrinal matters.

sermonindex Sep 13, 2005

Brother sb1175Dude, i said too much. I wait eaegerly to be corrected because i am sure there might be questionable things written. We will see.I don't think so. You brought forward some very good points, which I will highlight. Just for your info, I'm a sis (Acts 9:36) and I appreciate the time you took to make such a big reply. Also, I didn't write the piece above. On the front page of SI, there is on the right, a new article is available every time the home page is called up. This was one of them and I chose to bring it up for discussion, precisely because I didn't agree with the basic premise that the Christ life is in harmony with our nature.However, I can see there is a different way of looking at 'our nature' which would make it more like Christ (than less like Christ), namely remembering that when we were made in God's image, and Christ was born of woman as well as God, He was identifying with our nature. What He was not doing at the point of His birth was identifying with our sin - He did that at His death. The question remains though, whether the invitation given in the article, which does not mention sin, (although the scripture given is 'I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live') is a fair repost? How can a person accept to be identified with the crucifixion of Christ, and at the same time the following be true? "Your personality is incomplete without Christ. Christ was made for you, and you were made for Christ, and until you meet Him you are not complete.Will not the person who receives such a thought, struggle with embracing the cross?It is clear from the analogy of the gas burning and the snowflake nurturing new life, that the speaker understands the principle, but I keep returning to the question of whether the last quote is compatible with the truth?You saidFirst and foremost, Christ was never made for us. Christ is sufficent by Himself, whether humans existed or not, or the World did or not. He still is part of that God-Head- that ever was, is and be. John 6 i think it is, makes clear of that matter. That passage from Colossians does not necessiate that the World be created for Christ's existence, ...i can't emphasize how much of the property of God we are(property- really for a lack of a better word). I believe we could say we are not property of God- if God didn't demand of all Human beings and for that matter all Creation- that all submit and behold His glory- that God actually demands worship out of everything that He ever created,will create and has created. ...I need Christ first and foremost- not so that my sins are forgiven - NO, it is SO THAT I MAY KNOW THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST THE SON. I only say that because, hypothetically speaking- if Sin did not render the relationship between God and every other being related to God dead- we would not need a Savior. But we do, and that Savior is not there foremost to give a cleansing- for the sake of Cleansing- he is there to restore what belongs to the Father back to Him. Amen to all these points you made, particularly the establishment of God's order. I like the feeling of security this gives to the whole plan of salvation... that God will have His heart's desire and people can choose to be part of it or not. Tragically - or not.

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Graftedbranc Nov 12, 2005

We have to distinguish between our being as created human beings and our nature being our fallen human independant soulish nature.In our original creation we are created by God in His image and Likeness as a glove is created in the image and likeness of a hand. We were created as vessels to recevie and to contain God that we might be His expression in the earth. This was God's purpose in HIs creation of Man according to the Bible. And man's fulfillment is dependant on HIs fulfillment of God's eternal Purpose for him.But as fallen creatures our nature is corrupted by the poisen of the Serpant and fallen and is contrary to God and to Christ. NOt only that but our spirit is dead and we are separated from the Life of God. True satisfaction is realized only by our redemption and restoration and by partaking of the Tree of Life for which we were created. Our fallen natural life resists this and that is why we must take the cross and deny our "soul life". It is fallen and restless. It must be denied by the application of the cross by the indwelling Spirit.But as we undergo the process of the application of the cross and the resurrection Life of Christ, our natural capacities and our "soul" (not our soul life) is renewed and sanctified and brought into to resurrection by the indwelling LIfe of Christ. This brings our being into intigration and brings us the satisfaction which can come only by drinking of the Water of the Spirit which Christ gives and is in fact Christ Himself as the Spirit of Life. If we drink of this water we will be satisifed continually.Our fallen flesh and our corrupted human nature will never find satisfaction in Christ. That is why Christ terminated the Old creation on the Cross. Only by the application of the cross by the Spirit to "put to death the deeds of the body" can we experience the overcomming and satisfying Life of Christ and only as the Spirit renews us and sanctifies us do we experience something of the rest and satisfaction for which we were created and redeemed.As Christians our flesh does not change. And it will be present with us until the "redemption of our body". Our relationship to our fallen natural life is one of "putting to death" and "denying our soul LIfe". But in doing so we experience His resurrection Life and we enjoy the riches of Christ infused into our being and we learn to live by faith in the Son of God who loved us and gave Himself for us.graftedbranch

sermonindex Nov 21, 2005

Only by the application of the cross by the Spirit to "put to death the deeds of the body" can we experience the overcomming and satisfying Life of Christ and only as the Spirit renews us and sanctifies us do we experience something of the rest and satisfaction for which we were created and redeemed.Amen. I would back this up with Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you, which leads on to your reference to 'deeds of the body'.As Christians our flesh does not change.I don't agree with this on two counts - although it is a popular doctrine - because if one has been baptised into His death, then His death is effective in putting to death the deeds of the flesh - and this I have experienced. Also, the physical body is renewed, literally, every seven years, and this contributes considerably to victory over sin, in that it enables God to restore our flesh to its default settings, if not to alter some of them entirely at a very deep bio-chemical level.People who are still battling with the same problems in the flesh after many years of claiming faith in Christ, may be genuine in their faith at a level from the neck up - maybe even from the heart up - but, they have never really brought their body to Christ for the ministry it needs, to be delivered from the troubles they continue to experience.Further (a third reason) - if we have received the nature of Christ, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, He was the Word made Flesh, then there is a compatibility between the life of flesh and God's nature because we have been made in His image physcially (originally) and it is only SIN which spoiled things.What I'm trying to say is, the life of God through the Spirit, should be able to find a home in our physical body, once sin is identified and dealt with. What I didn't like in the article with which I started the thread, is the implication that one can receive Christ without dealing with sin.

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Graftedbranc Nov 23, 2005

I don't agree with this on two counts - although it is a popular doctrine - because if one has been baptised into His death, then His death is effective in putting to death the deeds of the fleshWhat we find is that even though we have been baptised into His death and in Him we died to sin and the authority of the flesh, This reality is only known to us and experienced by us as we walk by and in the Spirit.Romans 6:11 says: Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled (rendered powerless), That we should no longer serve sin.IN this verse, we see two things. The Old man and the body of sin (or the flesh KJV). This verse does not say our flesh was crucified with Christ, but our Old man. The Old man was a slave to the flesh and a servant of sin in the flesh.But we have been crucified in Christ and the flesh no longer has authority over us in Christ. We are not under obligation to sin in the flesh. But the flesh of sin is still there. It has not changed, Our relationship to it has changed. We are free from it's dominion.The Christian's flesh has not changed. And until the redemption of our body (Romans 8:11) when we are transfigured in rapture or resurrection at our Lord's comming, our flesh remaines the same. However, because we are in Christ and in Christ our "old man" was crucified who was enslaved to the flesh, and we are joined to Another, We can by living by the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus live the overcomming victorious Life of Christ. When we believe into Christ we are put into Christ and He is put into us. WE died in Christ to sin. We did not die in ourselves to sin. And only by the application by the Spirit in our spirit of this reality can we know in experience the liberation from our fallen flesh. It is not automatic. It is not something that happens once for all by some "work of grace". But rather it is the daily application of the cross to our flesh as we walk in the spirit and live by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.We have to "put to death the deeds of the Body by the Spirit..." If there were not still the "deeds of the body" we would not have to "put it to death by the Spirit. If the flesh were not still there, and if the flesh were different and not the "flesh of sin" we would have no need to "by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body.The very fact that we havt to deal with the flesh by the Spirit to put it to death is proof that it still is there and still the same. And it matters not how many years you have walked with the Lord. If you neglect prayer, and time spent with the Lord and the exercise of your spirit in feeding on Christ in the Word, The flesh will assert itself. If you are not strong in spirit and actively abiding in Christ, your flesh will assert itself and you will find yourself living according to the flesh. If we are not walking in and by the Spirit we will be in our flesh. Graftedbranch

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CJaKfOrEsT Nov 23, 2005

sb1175 wrote:Coloassians 1"Everything was made for Him and by Him" Since when is it that Christ was made for us? It is the other way around...I think that this comment is a clear indicator of being a little bit "precious". Sometimes we have to accept that the gospel is meant to be a volitile, and the God is perfectly capable of sticking up for Himself.I believe that Gal 2:20, presents a slightly circular senario, which reveals something of God's submission to His creation (please put you "stones" down and let me explain). As Norman Grubb put it, this verse show three type of self:Wrong self - the one that is "crucified with Christ"No self - the one that "neverless lives"Right self - the one that says that "Christ Jesus lives in me"Consider Jesus who "made himself a servant". The eternal God, who submitted himself to the limitations of being a child, and son of Joseph. God has "fixed" Himself with a decision to live a life with the limitation of "inability to lie" and to be defined by "love". Therefore He has submitted Himself to work for the overall benefit of mankind, over His own preference (consider Jesus payer in Gethsemane).Jesus is the pattern Son. He is the expression of man as man was intended to be. This is how Adam would have been prior to the fall, only with an intricate knowledge of the consequences of the fall.Essentially, the chain of command goes like this:God is the head of manMan is the head of the wifeWife is the head of the childrenThe children have command over God (only because God has willingly expressed a desire to submit Himself to the childlike) - Note: This God's integrity demands submission, or otherwise He would be selfish.Don't forget also, the legalists worst nightmare verse, John 3:16 - which clearly says that Jesus was sent to the world in response to His love for it (ie. Christ for the world, which takes nothing away from the world for Christ).As far as the original question, I once heard a really good explaination of the filling of the Holy Spirit, as opposed to being full of the Holy Spirit. David Pawson said that we should "think of it more about addition". In otherwords, Gal 2:20 says clearly that we are still there, but He now presides in our nature.I hope this brings some clarity.

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CJaKfOrEsT Nov 23, 2005

In answer to the opening question, yes. Christ life is in harmony with our nature, in as much as our sin nature is not harmonious to our true nature, producing death (James 1). We are not built for selfishness, and that is why it is so self-destructive to us. We are made in the image of God, but unfortunately, we have fallen, which requires our salvation.the unltimate question is, could we truly know union with God, without this fall. I personally believe that the answer is "No", but that will be one of the the first questions that I ask Him, when I stand "face to face" with Him.

sermonindex Nov 23, 2005

Graftedbranc saidRomans 6:11 says: Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled (rendered powerless), That we should no longer serve sin.IN this verse, we see two things. The Old man and the body of sin (or the flesh KJV). This verse does not say our flesh was crucified with Christ, but our Old man. The Old man was a slave to the flesh and a servant of sin in the flesh.My brother, I believe it is the other way round - that the flesh was a servant to the old man. This is why, although the flesh is marked by habits of thinking and doing, there is the strong expectation that we should be able to walk in the Spirit.The Spirit does not come to put to death the deeds of the flesh, but to enable us to overcome the tendancy of the flesh to serve sin.You said But the flesh of sin is still there. It has not changedPlease rethink everything, in the light of 'our old man' being the sinful nature/principle which used to rule the flesh. I think you'll find everything makes sense - even better sense - if you can begin to believe that the nature of the flesh has been changed by the death of 'our old man' - into which we are baptised in Christ.And until the redemption of our body (Romans 8:11) when we are transfigured in rapture or resurrection at our Lord's comming, our flesh remaines the same. Brother, this is not talking about after we die physically.... this is for now. It ties in completely with Eph 1:19 and 2:5 + 6.But rather it is the daily application of the cross to our flesh as we walk in the spirit and live by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.I agree with this as a free-standing statement... Please could you give me a scripture to go with this 'put it to death by the Spirit', which you said? I just can't remember where I've seen it. Thanks.

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Graftedbranc Nov 23, 2005

The Spirit does not come to put to death the deeds of the flesh, but to enable us to overcome the tendancy of the flesh to serve sin.I did not come up with this. Romans 8:12,13 says:"So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."This is the word of the Apostle Paul. If the Spirit is "not for putting to death the deeds of the body" then I don't know what this verse says.Graftedbranch

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Graftedbranc Nov 23, 2005

If you study Romans 7:7-8:2 you see there are 4 laws spoken of and revealed to us.1. The Law of God2. The law of good in our mind.3. The law of sin in our flesh4. The law of the Spirit of LIfe in Christ JesusAccording to Romans 7 the law of God appeals to the law of good in our mind, But when we would do this good, the law of sin in our flesh rises up and takes us captive. We are a slave to the law of sin in our flesh.When the law says, "thou shalt not covet" we say, yes it is good not to covet. And we determine to obey this and not covet. Yet we find ourselves coveting. This is the law of sin in our flesh which we have no power in ourselves to overcome. When the law says, "if you shall look upon a woman to lust after her you have committed adultry in your heart" we say, Yes this is good, I will not lust. Yet we find ourselves looking and lusting.And the only deliverance we have from the operation of these laws is in Romans 8:2, The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death.In and of ourselves no matter what our "good intentions" are, we are brought into slavery to the law of sin in our members.Only as we "walk by the Spirit" and Put to death by the Spirit, the deeds of the body do we experience the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus in Romans 8.Apart from daily contact with the Living Lord Jesus in our spirit, being strengthed into our inner man and walking by the Spirit can we experiece in practice the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. To walk in the spirit requries us to feed our spirit. To feed on Christ in His Word, to pray, to contact HIm and to have Him make His home in our hearts through faith. Only by living contact and being filled with Christ can we "walk in the Spirit' and be "led by the Spirit.When we are thus strong in spirit and filled in spirit and constituted with Christ, we find, "the rightouse requirement of the law being fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.If you sow to the flesh you shall from the flesh reap corruption, but if you sow to the spirit, from the Spirit you will reap Life which is eternal.Graftedbranch

sermonindex Nov 23, 2005

"So then, brothers, we are debtors not to the flesh to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."OK... I get this. I believe I understand how it works, but, because my understanding of 'our old man' is different from yours, the phrase had a different feeling and meaning to it, when you used it originally.My point is basically that the Holy Spirit comes to bring LIFE - not death. Paul is saying if YOU put to death the deeds of the flesh - through the power of the Spirit...In other words, it is not the Spirit which puts to death the deeds of the body... See what I mean?

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Graftedbranc Nov 23, 2005

OK... I get this. I believe I understand how it works, but, because my understanding of 'our old man' is different from yours, the phrase had a different feeling and meaning to it, when you used it originally.Amen sister (or brother - I am not sure)By putting to death, we are applying by the Spirit, Christ's death on the Cross to sin according to Romans 6 and our death in Him. That is because we are united with Christ in His death, sin has no power over us. But we only realize this by the Applicatioin of the Spirit.Our old man was crucified with Christ. This is the death which we apply, It is our death in Christ. The Spirit has two functions. To apply the death of Christ and to supply the Resurrection Life of Christ.Paul said in Philippeans 3: That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings being conformed to His death...The Spirit conforms us to His death as we experience the power of His resurrection. His death liberates us from the Old creation, from the dominion of sin and the fallen flesh. His death is the severing power between us and sin.But this reality is in the Spirit. The Spirit takes of Christ and the Spirit applies all Christ is and all Christ has accomplished to us and in us. So we have both the negative aspects of Christ's death to sin and the flesh, and the positive aspect of Christ's resurrection in this One Spirit.We put to death the deeds of the body by the Spirit by looking to the Spirit to apply the death of Christ to sin and the flesh and our death in HIm. And we expereince the positive aspects of His holy resurrection Life at the same time.Graftedbranch

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Christinyou Nov 24, 2005

Graftedbranch,Are you saying we are to recon ourself as dead to sin as as He is because of His perfect sacrifice by destroying our old nature which was Satan as our father and sinners by choice? Am I supposed to see myself on the Cross in Christ and see myself as dead to sin as He is? Since He destroyed the old man with Himself and me as one in Christ on the Cross, then how am I supposed to look at myself? By Him as my righteousness and the Holy Spirit bringing us into this perfection with Christ in me the Hope of Glory, or is it my responsibility to chose the life of Christ and I become the person of Christ in Spiritual Birth in spirit and learning in my soul mind to manifest in the world this righteousness? I guess it is both.In Christ: PhillipIn Christ: Phillip

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aeryck Nov 24, 2005

Hi Dorcas,How are you? What an interesting thread this is becoming. I just downloaded the pdf. and am going to have a slow read through it all. Galatians 2:20 was most baffling text for me. It draws from all of Paul's teaching to understand just how magnificent this passage truly is.I hope to post here in a week or two. Some serious brain expansion needed though, and ofcourse prayer, prayer and more prayer. :-P

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Graftedbranc Nov 24, 2005

Am I supposed to see myself on the Cross in Christ and see myself as dead to sin as He is? Romans 6:11 says, "So also reckon yourslelves to be dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus"The key here is "in Christ Jesus". That is we died in Him. We have been baptised into Him and His death is our death. So we too should reckon (consider) ourselves in Him to have died.That is our real position because we are in Chirst. However we need the enlightening of the Spirit to see this fact. We can "reckon" all we want and it will not make us dead to sin. We need the Spirit's enlightment to see that we have already died in Christ to sin.The death took place in Christ, not in us. We cannot look within ourselves and see that we have died, We died in Christ, not in ourselves. But the Spirit who is within our spirit is the Spirit of the crucified and resurrected Christ and it is His work to reveal this to us and to apply it and make it a reality in our conciousness and experience. Without the Spirit's work within us, our reckoning has no effect. It just becomes a mental exercise in futility. It is not a psycological technique. It is a Divine Reality which can be only known and applied by the Spirit (as is true of all the Divine Realities).What we need is to call on the Lord and ask Him to open up our eyes to see this and to enable us to enter into this reality. He never fails to answer such prayers and He died for us to bring us into this reality. It is His good pleasure.We need to see that in every epistle, Paul never begins with commands, admonishments or directions. He always begins with bringing us to and establishing to us our organic union with Christ in our spirit. That is the basis of every epistle. He then goes on to apply this in our walk and behaviour. This is without exception. And so it should be with us. We should always begin with the Lord in our organic union with Him recognizing that we are in Him and He in us. Everything flows from this organic union. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor 6:17)Graftedbranch

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aeryck Nov 24, 2005

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor 6:17)Hi Grafted Branch,That is a superb verse, I have it above my door. With a drawing of a candle burning. It really says it all. I have not had chance to read the entire thread yet, but I could not resist commenting. This passage is sweet as the honey in the honeycomb to me.Amen.

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Graftedbranc Nov 24, 2005

This passage is sweet as the honey in the honeycomb to me.Hallaluah!Graftedbranch