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Divorce and Remarriage

C
Christisking Sep 6, 2005

The following is a quote from a homosexual activist, Elroy McKinley: http://www.elroy.net/ehr/gay.html from a excerpt of Sister Cheryl's testimony "Why I Repented Of A Marriage God Called Adulterous" found on her website - http://poovy.8m.com/remarriage.htmlThis Quote from homosexual activist Elroy McKinley is defiantly worth reading, contemplation and discussion.A divorced man who remarries is entering into an adulterous relationship. And it's not just a relationship; it's an adulterous lifestyle because the remarried man chooses to continue living in the adulterous relationship for the rest of his life (or until he divorces and remarries again). However, if you ask this adulterous man if he is still a Christian, he will say something like, “I believe God has forgiven me and I'm now living under his grace.” And ask him if he's willing to leave his current wife in order to “turn from his adulterous lifestyle,” and he will refuse because “God's grace has already saved him.” But this is the same man who earlier claimed that the homosexual must turn from his “sinful” lifestyle as a condition of receiving God's grace.. . . The Religious Right is nearly half-full with people living in continuous adulterous lifestyles, and those who are not remarried fully accept their remarried brothers and sisters without question. They even perform their adulterous marriage ceremonies in their churches. Yet they have the gall to preach from their pulpits or shout through the airwaves that God wants us to stop the world from accepting homosexuals the same way they have been accepted by God. Jesus warned us not to be like the servant who was forgiven his debt by the grace of his lord but then used the legal system to throw a fellow slave in jail. The Religious Right, however, claim God's grace for their own lifestyle sins but then turn around and give tremendous amounts of time and money to use the legal system against homosexuals. It is a double standard. It is a mockery. If Christ took their sins to the cross, and became an adulterer through propitiation before burying that sin in the ground, then Christ also took the gay person's sin to the cross and became a homosexual before burying that sin in the ground. The Religious Right, and everyone else, should either accept that God's grace covers all of us, including those living in sinful lifestyles, or that none of us are covered. They should either condemn their remarried members or shut up about those among us who are gay. But they don't. And we are left to wonder why. Why do they pick on one “sinful” lifestyle but not their own? Why homosexuality and not adultery? They say it's because homosexuality is damaging our families and hurting our children. But which is really worse? Over 50% of American parents get divorced. Most of those remarry. Over 50% of our children have their families torn apart and then merged with the families of strangers (causing a lot of sexual abuse on children by step-parents). But less than 5% of the population is homosexual. Even if they had twice as many relationships as heterosexuals do, they could not possibly cause the kind of damage that heterosexual divorce and remarriage does. The former vice-president of Focus on the Family, a leading Religious Right organization, stated in his book, “James Dobson's War on America” (Dobson is the founder and president) that when their donations went down, they could simply broadcast a scary special about the gay agenda (or the evil women's movement or the even more evil abortion rights groups – but never remarried people since that would drive away nearly half of their listeners) and their revenues would increase substantially. There are some very eye opening truths in Mr. McKinley’s article. Homosexuals understand what the Bible says about remarriage – but so few Christians know, or should I say “want to know.” It’s pretty sad when a homosexual can see the hypocrisy of the modern church and most Christians cannot. Mr. McKinley is not alone in this observation – other homosexuals as well have challenged us to prove that marriage is worth keeping. They are basically saying – and they are quite right, as shocking as it may be – that a homosexual “marriage” by two people who love each other and are committed to each other, is every bit as valid and every bit a biblical as remarriage while your first spouse is still living. Basically, these homosexuals are stuffing our feet in our own mouths as evangelical Christians, leaving us with no moral authority to make the argument against homosexual marriages. Few Christian leaders, pastors and preachers purporting to want to rebuild our families will even touch on this sin of divorce and remarital adultery lying under the skirts of the church. The homosexual activists are using this against us, and doing a very efficient job. This should shock the church back to it senses, to look at this subject in light of God’s word. But is this happening? On any given Sunday morning a large portion of the people sitting in the churches of America – including their pastors – are either adulterers or fornicators according to biblical standards. They are in violation of God’s holy Word, and are unwittingly taking the lead in tearing down and desecrating the American family. In fact, so bad is this situation, that the divorce rate in the church is 4% higher than the nation as a whole – and in the “Bible belt” with the greatest concentration of so-called evangelical churches, the divorce rate is 50% higher than in the nation as a whole! With such a situation, how can we ever be capable of winning any culture wars? This is basically the pot calling the kettle black. I don’t know of a single prominent ministry in this country, especially those that purport to be rebuilding the family, which will focus on their own constituency and address them on the issue of divorce and remarriage. They will not do it. So now we the church have set ourselves up for absolute defeat. We have absolutely no moral authority to speak against the homosexuals who insist on their “right” to “marriage.” We don’t have righteousness in this nation, we don’t even have righteousness in the church. In our nation pastors have a divorce rate that is the second highest in this country! If this sounds unbelievable, check the statistics for yourself! Visit http://www.saveus.org for the statistics. George Barna, pollster to the church, has spent the last ten years gathering statistics on this and many other issues involving the church. Until the church from pulpit to pew repents of this matter, the church is and will continue to be powerless in winning the lost. Racked with its own adultery and fornication, it has the nerve to hypocritically point the finger at homosexuals and their lifestyle – while preachers and pastors remain silent on divorce and remarriage. Homosexuals make up about 5% of the population but have more of an impact on society than the church does. Christ is returning for a spotless bride. Will he find it in the American churches? Why would a homosexual want to enter our church gates if all he sees is hypocrisy on our part? I can’t blame the homosexuals; I no longer want to attend many of the so-called Christian churches of our day either. Since the religious leaders of our day remain silent, it is we the “rocks” who cry out against the unrighteousness within the church walls. If someone doesn’t speak against this, the church will spiral more toward the apostate church predicted by Christ in the end times. I cringe now when I hear a pastor speak of the sin of homosexuals, while not willing to speak of the sin of remarital adultery! Just because our denominations have changed their interpretations of the scriptures in the last 50 years does not mean that the word of God has changed.

K
Kadmiel Sep 6, 2005

Hi ChristisKing,This is a difficult subject for me as i am on the hurting end. My ex-wife left (divorced) me 10 years ago because she said, God told her to.She said this to our pastor and to my mother both of which were her mentors. Since my ex divorced me and also, momma passing away 3 years ago, i am so alone, lonely and hurt ever day of my life. I hate not being married. I miss it. I've been single and not even dated since my ex left me.

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philologos Sep 6, 2005

Before we re-run the tapes on this, it might be a good thing to read Marriage/divorce - remarriage.

A
allhavsinned Sep 6, 2005

Tommy, my heart goes out to you, It may be little comfort but Jesus promises to look after the widows and orphans, I am sure He will comfort you too. I am one of the few people I know who believe remarriage is wrong, I know many Christians who are in their second marriage and I understand the excuises they use. But I believe God wants us to be faithful to our first Spouse until death and I thank you, Tommy that you have the strength to stick to what you believe. Remember that you are bringing Honour to Gods Name each day you continue to stand up for His word.A note on Homosexuality, what the guy said was true, but it only shows that there is hypocracy in the church, it is not a reason to stay in a gay lifestyle when you know it is wrong.I am neither Gay nor Divorced so I guess my opinion is only worth 2 cents.

S
SWW Sep 6, 2005

Dear Allhavesinned and ChristisKing,I am encouraged that you both stood up and defended Biblical teaching on the sin of remarriage after divorce. It is rare indeed to find any in this generation that know the truth and have the courage to stand opposed to the fallen church on this subject, let alone finding two of you at once. How did you come to realize the truth when nearly all others are blind and falling in the ditch? I look forward to finding out what made the rare difference with you. May God bless you as you follow Him.Stephen Wilcox Http://www.marriagedivorce.com

L
LetUsPray Sep 7, 2005

Just because our denominations have changed their interpretations of the scriptures in the last 50 years does not mean that the word of God has changed. Before I go on, I want to state clearly that what follows is not an excuse, justification, or defense. It is my experience, and it may encourage some who read this. At the same time it may offend others. If I do offend, please forgive me, I write this because I too believe that I serve the Lord. Even though I agree with everything that brother Patrick writes, I have to go on the record, that I am married for the second time. My first wife was very discontented with me and to make a long story short, we divorced. The fact that I became a Christian was the “last nail in the coffin” of our marriage, as she stated. I did not want to divorce. After we divorced and she re-married. I always taught the young people and adult classes at our church that one should never marry again after a divorce.When I understood, after being single for over 10 years, the Lord to say to me that I should get married again, I questioned it seriously. I had no desire, but this is what I understood. I studied Scriptures and various interpretations about re-marriage. One Scripture in particular stood out: "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:9). In my case I didn’t want the divorce; my wife had the affair and then married another man. I forgave her, but she wanted out.I did find a Christian lady who had been single and unattached for her entire life, and after continually seeking the Lord, we married. Prior to this, I did contact my first wife and asked if she was willing to reconsider the choices she had made, but she didn’t. Some or maybe many of you may find this hard to accept or understand, but my life as a Christian has grown exponentially. Since I am married with a Christian woman, we counsel Christian couples who have difficulties in their marriage. We also counsel women who are unequally yoked and disciple with respect to forgiveness and intercessory prayer for their partners and children. Since my youngest daughter was suicidal during the separation and my son struggled for many years after the divorce, I am convicted that if a marriage can be saved, even after adultery, it should be done. God can and will grant forgiveness and healing after repentance. Having said this, when I see a woman with bruises on her face and body from physical abuse and this continues after the husband has been counseled, I never recommend that women have to remain in this situation. Even though this is not adultery, I don’t believe for one moment that husbands are allowed to physically abuse their wives and they have to stay under the same roof with them.I unequivocally agree with brother Patrick that the Church has no business to tell the world how to live or how to behave, since She doesn’t know how to obey God’s Word. Jesus never told the world how to live neither did he lead a protest march to Rome to complaint to the Emperor. He only scolded the religious leaders, never the political ones according to my knowledge. Paul tells us to pray for our leaders, not to tell them how to run the country. The Lord gave me a message for the Church. She has to repent and return to His word and obey it. If the fact that I am married for the second time takes away from that warning, it is up to God to deal with that. Before the Church condemns the world She has to look within Herself first.In His Love,Hans Prangwww.thefinalcall.net

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1956Ford Sep 7, 2005

Thanks Patrick for posting some of my testimony.It is a very difficult thing to repent of an adulterous remarriage.But it's also a more difficult thing to kick against the pricks of the Holy Spirit's conviction. I remember distinctly the Lord trying to tell me not to marry a divorced man. I even went and cried telling my mom that I couldn't marry this man. But in time I listened to other christians and my selfish desires instead of God and went on into the adulterous marriage. As far as the Word of God goes there are many who say this verse doesn't mean this and that verse wasn't translated right and so on, but I have found that we are led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit will convict and teach you the scripture. Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.The Holy Spirit and the Word of God convicted me of being in remarital adultery, and believe me I had enough people to try to explain it all away, inluding pastors. And I've read just about every viewpoint on Divorce and Remarriage, but I will not be swayed by men. So none of what folks bring up on these boards is new to me. I've read it all before. I am led by the Spirit and when the Spirit convicts of sin we must repent.Most of the time people who are under strong conviction of the Holy Spirit run to and fro trying to find some way to quench that conviction and explain it away. I'm a very private person and in some ways it is a difficult thing to have my testimony on the web for so many to see but I feel the need for people to see the truth on this issue. I don't debate this issue much. I know what the word of God has to say about it. My testimony is at http://poovy.8m.comCheryl

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allhavsinned Sep 7, 2005

I've just gone to the link Ron posted, I didn't read all 13 pages! This is why I very seldom comment upon remarriage after devorce. The couple that took us through our Marriage Matters course were both remarried and so were the other 2 couples in our group. It's a sticky subject, some people believe God has told them to remarry, others say that even living with an abusive spouse does not mean you may leave ("for better or for worse"). I have my own opinion and it is very black and white. I may be wrong, in this case I am happy to be wrong, but until I see something to convince me that God alows someone to have sex with a person other than their first spouse, I will keep my beliefs (to myself if necessary) and pray that my wife doesn't leave me and make me put my money where my mouth is.;-)I think that it is possible for someone to live in 'sin' under grace and still be used by God, but how much more could He do with them if they were willing to die to self and live for Him alone?As the original post was relating to a homosexual comparing living with his partner 'in sin' with a couple living in adultary because one partner had a previous spouse, I guess I am saying that the gay person can still be used by God. Hmm do you see how compromise can lead to liberalism.Still confused as to how to deal with this one. I may even read those 13 pages to get some 'words from the wise' :-?

A
allhavsinned Sep 7, 2005

Thanks Cheryl for opening yourself up to us. I think many will read your testimony and save themselves from years of grief. God Bless you.

sermonindex Sep 7, 2005

sir, you wrote: I have my own opinion and it is very black and white.I pray one day that God the Holy Ghost deliver you from that. We had a VERY long thread regarding this topic, wher in all transparency I provided my own testimony. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=6820&forum=35&130It's a very long thread, but then again everyone has a lot of "opinions".God bless you today is my prayer.Neil

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allhavsinned Sep 7, 2005

I also wrote 'I am happy to be wrong...'I've just read Cheryl's testimony, very powerfulI am looking into this subject.have you ever heard the phrase; 'there is only Jesus or sin' Where does God draw the line? black and white?I'm still happy to be wrong cos it makes life easier. compromise vs fundamentalism?We all need to get closer to God, He alone will lead us into all TruthI'll read that long thread now...

sermonindex Sep 7, 2005

When one CANNOT marry again ....1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 1Co 7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. One can leave and not remarry, in the case above. Doesn't specify 'why' "she departs", but abuse or something must be a possibility here.An O.T. law says, that if your x-spouse remarries, you cannot remarry them if they divorse that 2nd spouse later. So there can be no "reconciliation" with them if that's the case, yet you must remain unmarried, if 'you' are the one who left (vs.11).~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~When one CAN marry again .....1Co 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. If an unbeliever departs and then remarries someone else, then the Christian is free to marry again. (Don't go beyond what is "written").~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~When one CAN marry again ....Mat 19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, EXCEPT it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. In other words, if he puts away his wife for sexual immorality during the marriage, he CAN remarry. That word "Except" is in the text for a reason.The majority of scholars on this verse, say that the "sexual immorality" (fornication) happens "during" the marriage, and not prior.If the Lord had just said "adultery", then that would have limited any number of other ways in which a married person can "defile the marriage bed", (that we won't get into) ... that is why Jesus used the all encompassing word "porneia" meaning 1) illicit sexual intercourse1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 181c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mar_10:11,Mar_10:122) metaphorically the worship of idols2a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols (Thayer's)How this verse being taking so far out from it's meaning, I don't know.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~All of the above is not from "modern" scholars, but our old trusted ones. We should not add to God's Word and thus condemn or hurt our brothers and sisters unwarrantedly.

sermonindex Sep 7, 2005

This thread is like de ja vu all over again... de ja vu all over again... de ja vu all over again... Didnt we just have this discussion like 2 weeks ago?Krispy

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roadsign Sep 7, 2005

Two threads on this same topic! The following words were meant to go on the very very long thread, but I am posting it here. You don't need to read that thread, this gives the drift: *** I just read through this long 14 page post, trying to imagine that I was one of the statistics. Would I find Christ amidst the conversation? I did PTL: in Neiglin1’s testimony. Thank you for sharing that! I'm just tired of the church treating divorced people like they are some kind of second rate Christian. Sadly this comment expresses the true feelings of many – those who find themselves among the statistics. Sadly, all too often when they are in their weakest condition, as a result of the emotional turmoil in their lives, they get hammered by the legalists – those who are straining the gnats, but missing the message of the Sprit. Note this message: The book of Hagar is an unbelievable story of a man taking back his promiscuous wife (against law but not against grace). That is the picture of Christ and the sinful human race – of which none of us are exempt. When we all see ourselves as the promiscuous wife, then we will see that none of us deserves any mercy anymore than the divorced person. Since the statistics are as they are, what are we to do? I have several piano students from broken homes. They hurt badly. So do their parents. They have all heard enough degrading, accusing, slamming words thrown at them. They have suffered already from the consequences of poor choices – whether their own, or someone else’s. (including the sins of society in general) In the past the "dysfunctional" person was the exception. Now it is the norm. People carry a lot of unhealthy emotinal baggage, and that makes it extremely difficult to maintain healthy reliationships - whether in marriage or otherwise. We need to take that into consideration when trying to understand the issue of divorce. Let's face it, any of us would find it difficult, even impossible, to have a trusting relationship with a person who harbors a lot of rage, shame, addiction, who lies a lot, who won't listen to anything you say, who perpetually makes wreckless choices etc. [edit added]We can add several more pages in this thread, but if we have nothing to say that would promote healing and forgiveness for these people, we are as sounding brass, and all our words will count for nothing. I’ve heard it said that when God sends revival, it will be the forgiven sinners – the divorces, the addicts, the prostitutes etc who will lead the way. I can easily believe this. These are the ones who will KNOW the mercy of God. They will be the ones who will give it to others. “Freely you have received, freely give.” They may not be allowed to hold offices in the church, but they will be God’s mighty servants among the sinners of the world – ministers of reconciliation. Who knows, some day you or I may be ministered to by one of those among the statistics. (Doesn’t that remind you of the Parable of the Good Samaritan? )Diane

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philologos Sep 7, 2005

Two threads on this same topic! The following words were meant to go on the very very long thread, but I am posting it here. You don't need to read that thread, this gives the drift: There have been 4 or 5 threads on this topic over the years. This is one which tried to find some definitions: Divorce and Remarriage a biblical perspective.My own view on this is that the narrow interpretation of Matthew's reference to fornication as meaning 'pre-marital sex' just cannot be sustained from the Bible data. Without joining a 'side' in this, I think Neilgin's 'born again virgin' concept is also mistaken. I am not trying to prove anything about divorce and remarriage in saying this, but that the concept does not work. New birth happens in the spirit, but sexual union happens in the body. The concept that 'new birth' resets all the dials is not true of the body. If this were so 'new birth' would instantly effect a cure of all hereditary or sexually transmitted diseases.Over many years I have discussed and re-discussed this question with many. There are two main settings for such discussions; a group of studious thinkers with highly tuned spiritual antennae AND broken hearted people whose lives have fallen to pieces around them. In the first scenario we have all the luxury of precise defintions and prescriptions; in the second we have a pastoral responsibility to wounded souls.As a younger man, I heard a wise old preacher say there are three things that Christians will never agree on; the reconciliation of apostates, divorce and remarriage, and the taking up of arms. I thought him somewhat defeatest, believing myself that there must always be a simple answer to such moral dilemmas.For myself one of the continuing problems in trying to 'hold the line' and at the same time not wanting to impose my own convictions upon another's life, is the whole definition of 'marriage'. Christians presume that we have one; I am not sure. I posted this in another thread about 18 months ago.Sometimes we have to broaden an issue before we can narrow it. There are at least three issues affecting fellowship which the Church has struggled with for hundreds of years; repentant apostates, the marriage of divorcees, and taking up arms in war. Opposing sides have been taken by Godly men in their different persuasions. Often, as the saying goes 'we generated more heat than light'. It is easier to come to decisions about these matters in our studies than in our pastoral care of the saints. It is relatively easy to come to fixed position theologically; if we were dealing with boxes and not people life would be uncomplicated.Before we can define 'remarriage' we have to define 'divorce', but before we define 'divorce' we have to define 'marriage'. For a couple of hundred years there has been a 'Christian consensus' for a definition; usually it would involve the notions of consent, covenant and consumation. It has been a bulwark for society and the family, but we are now living in a society which is much more like that of the first century and it would be good if we understood what that society was like.As far as I can ascertain there are no Hebrew words nor Greek words for 'husband' or 'wife'. :-o Both languages use the simple words for 'man' or 'woman' and they add a possessive pronoun. eg Jesus says to the Samaritan woman "thou hast had 5 men and he whom thou now hast is not thy man". The question then is what makes 'a man' hers or 'a woman' his. and we are back to our need for a definition of marriage!There are no marriage 'ceremonies' in the Old Testament. There is a wedding celebration in John 2 and we have a good idea of the pattern of betrothal and marriage in Jewish society. Some say that God authenticates the Jewish pattern, but do not usually say where or how.At this point in history Roman wedding patterns were in transition. Roman family life with its rights and responsibilities is very complicated for folks brought up in our cultures. The Romans had 5 recognized forms of marriage! In some of them 'ownership' of the woman changed. In some it did not. The one closest to our traditional 'Christian marriage' was called 'Confarreatio'.Confarreatio was an elaborate religious ceremony, * with ten witnesses, * the flamen dialis (himself married confarreatio) and * pontifex maximus in attendance. * Only the children of parents married confarreatio were eligible. * The grain far was baked into a special wedding cake (farreum) for the occasion; hence, the name confarreatio. It was only available for the patrician class. (the upper strata of Ronan society) Technically this made the bride her father-in-law's possession. Another familiar form of marriage was known an USUS and has similarities with what we would now call 'common law marriage'. This would have been the form of marriage for much of the lower 'strata' of Roman society. Under this form of marriage * After a year's cohabitation, the woman came under her husband's manum, (authority) * unless she stayed away for three nights (trinoctium abesse). * Since she wasn't living with her pater familias, and * since she wasn't under the hand of her husband, * she acquired some freedom.We have no records of Roman marriages being 'blessed' by Christians and it is most unlikely that early Christians were required to be formally married by 'Christian priests'.One of the things we 21st Century christians need to think through is the implications of all this. Is a common-law marriage between two faithful partners less 'valid' that a legal marriage in Las Vegas that lasts for an hour or two? Can someone live a life of promiscuity but still be regarded as 'unmarried' and therefore eligible for 'Christian Marriage'?The words of the Lord are very striking; They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. (Mat 19:7-8 KJV)In particular we should notice 1. his change from 'command' to 'allow' in his statement regarding Moses,2. that the original design (from the beginning) had been allowed to be 'modified'. 3. the reason for the modification was 'hardness of heart'.The Moses commandment was part of a Law-Code which began at Sinai (and hence did not include Adam, Abraham, Jacog etc) and ended when the 'seed came to whom the promise was made'. (Gal 3:19). This means we must be very cautious about the way we use the Old Testament to understand the New Testament. The New Covenant contains a promise of a new-heart, so is there now any accommodation for 'hardness of heart' in the Church? are we back to 'as it was in the beginning?'.In all these considerations we need a spirit of patience love and, often, specific discernment. This is a plea from an old pastor who once had all this sorted out theoretically, but real people just kept getting in the way! :-) Just one more comment by way of loving provocation; one of the reasons we have such difficulties with this issue is because churches have taken on the role of 'marriage facilitators'. Why do we 'marry' people? If we left this in the hands of the civil authority we might be able to see some of the issues more clearly. Just my thoughts... we know in part...

sermonindex Sep 7, 2005

I just read through this long 14 page post, trying to imagine that I was one of the statistics. Would I find Christ amidst the conversation? I did PTL: in Neiglin1’s testimony. Thank you for sharing that!Me too Diane, and on this one, I found it in Hans' testimony.I reckon as long as new folks come on, we'll see threads come up on old-already-hashed-out topics, but I'm sure the starter of this thread, had a reason to start it. I'm sort of glad he did, cuz the other one was getting old, stale and starchy in places.I think I'm getting old and tired and maybe (I don't know what) ... cuz I'm really "TIRING" of "OPINIONS".I even told my daughter, that I'm a sick ol' grumpy lady. Ha - :-? But I almost started a thread titled ... "Opinion is Sin". (dead serious here tho'.)I think when it comes to God's Word and the Events going on in the World, that "God's" people should have 'the mind of Christ' on these issues or be Biblically Based.(same thing)The world looks to 'us' for The Answers, and if all we have is differing "opinions" and not The Word of God, or intelligent research on political issues, then how can we be the LIGHT of the world ?Confusion is not from the Lord, and "opinions" are confusion. I think on Biblical discussions or on POLITICS, we should know from RESEARCH, and lots of it, what we are saying, for the sake of the World.They're lost, they need firm, truthful, From God, answers.Enough blah, blah from me, though this really HAS been heavy on my heart lately, more than ever.annie

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baruch_48 Sep 7, 2005

from brother Hans:the Church has no business to tell the world how to live or how to behave, since She doesn’t know how to obey God’s Word. Jesus never told the world how to live neither did he lead a protest march to Rome to complaint to the Emperor. He only scolded the religious leaders, never the political ones according to my knowledge. Paul tells us to pray for our leaders, not to tell them how to run the country. this is well saidyour whole testimony Hans, how the Lord uses both you and your wife now to counsel others is a testimony to the power of grace and that mercy indeed does triumph over judgmentbut we don't want grace when we're confident of our abilities to live righteouslythose that spout self-righteously and finger-point constantly and continually on this message board will find that they themselves shall become ensnared in the same sins they try to focus upon in othersjust watch

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philologos Sep 7, 2005

"Opinion is Sin"that's an interesting opinion. ;-)

sermonindex Sep 7, 2005

philologos,Your summary here was much appreciated. After one marriage partner has been born again, I have the impression that there must come some discussion about how the other wishes to proceed - staying or leaving - which naturally has consequences for the believer. Even if the unbeliever stays for a while, surely, something vital has changed their relationship?New birth happens in the spirit, but sexual union happens in the body.You have said what new birth does not do. Could you elaborate on what it does do, please? EDIT: I mean, do to present and past marriage relationships. EDIT end

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allhavsinned Sep 7, 2005

I think when it comes to God's Word and the Events going on in the World, that "God's" people should have 'the mind of Christ' on these issues or be Biblically Based.(same thing)Annie, good point, It's not what we think the Bible says but what God says. Therefore let God deal with those people who are in the remarried position, it is not for us to judge them. If they are honest with God and desire His Lordship in their lives, they will search for His answer and live by it. This brings us back to Cheryl's testimony.

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