Old Tesatment vs New Testament

dear brethren there is something i would like to know that has been bugging me for some time now. the Lord has led me to ask what is it that we are exempt from in this new Testament?matthew 5 17-20 says: 17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. if Christ didn't come to do away with the Law, and says we should obey it all, what then did He abolish which was of the Old Testament? i know it's not judgement like it was in the O.T. because the final judgement will be beyond anything in the O.T. i'm guilty of saying "oh that was the Old Testament, that doesn't apply now" without fully understanding exactly what we're exempt from now.how much are we excusing ourselves of by sweeping it under the O.T. rug? How much are we really exempt from as opposed to how much we are exempting ourselves from? i humbly ask for scriptures and prayerful consideration before posting.p.s. i'm not a kjv fan coz i find it hard to read (olde englishe) i use an niv and good news which i find easier, but i'm learning to read it. since most people quote it in their posts i've done so here.many thanks

The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength.The law in itself is only a shadow, it doesn't satisfy God or sanctify men outside of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Jesus has provided the grace to every child of God to now......love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37-40)In Christ,Ron

bro Ronthanks for your response. i was in error for saying that we are exempt from this and that which wasn't fulfilment of the by our own strength. why then we write so many things off as being old testament when fulfilment of the law is the only exemption. complacency?

why then we write so many things off as being old testament when fulfilment of the law is the only exemption. complacency?Even if we did eradicate the Old Covenant laws, Jesus words say it all – every commandment is incorporated into his teachings somehow. Even the ritual laws – every one of them is a picture of a spiritual law that is relevant today. It seems that most professing Christians still dwell in the Old Covenant era. As long as they are still ruled by their old natures, they are not living in Spirit of the New Covenant with transformed minds. They still wnat to be the masters of their own lives. So they make themselves an authority over Scripture, making it submit to their sinful desires (to rule their own lives). They are still like the rebellious, unbelieving Israelites. They may obsess on the laws they like (esp finger-pointing laws and laws that control religion) and are blind to a host of others (laws about mercy and love). Or, those unregenerate “Christians” who do abolish the entire Old Testament are still in spiritual darkness, and thus will fail to see the Law through the words of Christ. (Antinomianism) Ironman, Does that make any sense? Am I tracking with you?I must admit that I am still trying to grasp even my own words here. I have lived in an Old Covenant mindset for so many years, (without realizing it) that I would not be surprised if there are many areas of my life where I am still bound with legalistic thinking. (Galatians)Amen to this: The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength.Diane

hey sis Dianeby saying some Chritians are still living in the O.T. era, do you mean that they lack the mercy and patience which comes from the Holy Spirit? or perhaps fail altogether to submit to the Holy Spirit?

by saying some Chritians are still living in the O.T. era, do you mean that they lack the mercy and patience which comes from the Holy Spirit? or perhaps fail altogether to submit to the Holy Spirit?I'm not sure. Can one have a foot in each covenant? It would seem that if one is still living according to Old Covenant principles, they haven't really been born from above, (born again) I use the word "Christian" loosely - referring to all who call themselves by that name. I'd say by far most Christians are not even saved. Evidence of living in the Old Covenant: They center their worship on form and place (building, religious activity, and such) rather than life centerd on Spirit. - depend on works of the flesh for salvation- focus on outer behavior- not led by the Spirit, living by the Spirit - do not reflect the heart of Christ- more focused on law and justice than mercy and forgiveness, Maybe they lack patience and mercy because they have not experinced God's patience and mercy towards them. It's hard to distinguish, as one can easily be fooled by good outer cover. Only in the final judgment will it be obvous who are wheat and who are tares. Diane

I'm not sure. Can one have a foot in each covenant? It would seem that if one is still living according to Old Covenant principles, they haven't really been born from above, (born again)sis Dianewe've concluded that being under grace means that we can fulfil o.t. standards/statutes by help of the Holy Spirit so we need to be aware of the statutes in question. however from some of the evidences of O.T.-type living, one word comes ot mind, hypocrite. just like the pharisees who did it all by the book but in the wrong spirit.

one word comes to mind, hypocrite. just like the Pharisees who did it all by the book but in the wrong spirit. Those who try hard to be good Christians in their own strength have no other recourse but to follow the letter of the law. I’d say that the vast majority of church goers are all trying, but as you say, in the wrong spirit, without the Holy Spirit.Have you thought about how useless this discussion topic is - in general. Explaining the New Covenant Law (of the Spirit) is like trying to explain color to a blind man. Spiritual truths cannot be discerned with the natural mind. So you could go on forever discussing antinomianism, legalism, the laws, hypocrisy, etc and you are just beating yourself on the head. The New Covenant is the best news in the entire Bible. But it sure isn’t a favourite discussion topic in any Christian circle. Sorry, but that seems to be a reality. Diane

sis dianeHave you thought about how useless this discussion topic is - in general. Explaining the New Covenant Law (of the Spirit) is like trying to explain color to a blind man. Spiritual truths cannot be discerned with the natural mind. So you could go on forever discussing antinomianism, legalism, the laws, hypocrisy, etc and you are just beating yourself on the head.you know i understand why the Lord has shut me up now. the revelations He gives us to share aren't always received in the right spirit. we write off to much stuff as being false without letting God try it for us. i felt moved by Him to ask that question so i could get an answer and i did. thanks to you all, or both ;-)

Brother Ironman you wrote;"you know i understand why the Lord has shut me up now"Praise God for that revelation to you ... i know it's not an easy understanding to come to, for i've had to go thru the same thing ... We get so used to spouting when He has us in spout mode, that it's hard to shut up/down when He ceases out lips ...Anyhow i just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents about the Old and New Testament ... First off it's not vs when it comes to the OT and the NT, for the NT (via the Gospels of Jesus) is the fulfilment of the NT, they are complimentary for we'd never understand the NT without the OT, and vice-versa ... i'm convinced that the reason God answered my prayer to telling His story and making it plain via THE CALLED, is the reason why He's finally - at this day and time- bringing it to fruition, so that folk can readily understand the connection ...For me the OT represents no threat to my NT salvation in Christ as i fully know and understand that Christ completely fulfiled that Law which once condemned me, but now that i'm covered in His blood there is therefore no condemnation in Him ... So why am i so in love with the OT? ... i'll tell you why ... Because it's the OT that my foundation of "faith" has been built on ... It's the dealings of God with His OT chosen folk that has had such a great and formative impact on my believing, such as Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Elijah, Jonah, David, Solomon, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and the like ... The OT gives us all some pretty intricate histories of these saints ups and downs and more importantly God's in and outworkings thru their ups and downs ... The OT lives of those saints let me know that even in my imperfections, mess ups, hang ups and bang ups God can still concider me a man after His own heart, and still make all things work together for His good thru me ... Just think, He did that with OT folk, now think of what He could do thru us in Christ who are now indwealt by the Holy Ghost, if we'd but only surrender ...That's why the book of Hebrews is my favorite NT book ... If we read it and take it for what it says, it totally explains the symbiotic relationship between the two, and the greater fulfilment of the NT for the believer over the OT ... But then it hits we NT believers at Heb. 11 with what we all can and must learn from our OT counterparts ... THE NEED FOR FAITH! ... FAITH! ... FAITH! ... For with us that "haven't seen" what they "did see" we need our FAITH! even moreso ... That's what i love about this scripture ...Heb.12[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.Brother Ironman you're in the wilderness, and i'm on the road just about to cross over the bridge (the final galley for THE CALLED was approved yesterday and went into production today) ... So what do we both have in common right about thru here? ... We're both in a one on one experience with God where He's talking to us, and we should be talking back to Him ... To tell you the truth, i'm being far more effective in this time of His shuting my mouth because some key folk in my assignment are now seeking me out to find out why i'm now so quiet ... Now isin't that interesting ... REST in the "shut down lesson" for now brother Ironman, for believe me He will unzip our lips anew ... to a higher level ...when He's ready! ... Amen ... :beard: PS - See you in Babylon! ... ;-)

REST in the "shut down lesson" for now brother Ironman, for believe me He will unzip our lips anew ... to a higher level ...when He's ready!I'm filtering this statement through my own present experiences.(Isn't that what we all tend to do?) It seems like God is teaching me that REST is not necessarily a temporary period of being "shut down", but a brand new permanent state - entering into the Promised Land (Hebrews) Being in his REST, for me seems to be a condition of freedom - freedom from the constant innner nagging - that I must have something yet to do, maybe a "special calling", or that just around the corner I'm going to DO something great for God. I think that this is the essence of the New Covenant promise - entering his REST, totally content - without feeling that something is missing - something I must do in order to make myself feel complete, or make me a better Christian. And when all those unsettled inner naggings are dead, then I know that I will be able to just sit at the feet of Jesus. I'm not there yet, I'd say. I know that if he has something for me, fine, but that is up to him, and he will make it happen the way he wants. Diane

Hi sister Diane ...Speaking soley for myself, as you've said "filtering things thru my own experience(s)" with God, i find there to be different levels of "rest" ... Such as i'm completely at rest that the Bible is the Word of God, and completely at rest that i'm saved in our Lord Jesus Christ and am heavenbound ... i'm also completely at rest that even tho at present the Body of Christ doesn't quiet seem to be up to par in saltiness and light, that the gates of hell will not prevail against it ... But the rest i spoke of to brother Ironman has to do with God's calling to those of us who have come to believe that He has a specific purpose for, in, and with our lives ... i believe there comes a time in the specific work when He'll temporarily (as He did with Ezekiel) shut us down for His own specific reasons ... True God has a plan and purpose for ALL His children that come to Him, but Scripture is replete with those few in comparison to the greater majority of saints, who are called out according to what you refered to as a "special" calling/purpose ... i personally don't like to use the term "special" or "doing something great for God" because it makes others have a tendency to chalk "pride" up to anyone who believes they're hearing something from God that most others arent ... For the record, from my point of view, any of us who in fact have been called of Him to His own specific purpose of moving and shaking His Body and/or the world in general has been called of no "special" merit of our own, but simply because God decided to do the choosing ... In my own belief/experience of being picked out by Him for a specific work, i have a really difficult time understanding why in that there are so many others far more worthy and faithful in my book from which He could have chosen ...So 25 years ago i had my salvation experience, resting in the fact that i'm washed in the blood ... But the more i went on in church the more Holy Spirit kept pointing out things to me that we as the Body must quit - The first being the ugliness of denominationalism ... He sent me on a mission regarding this, and i could not "rest" until the task of bringing a Baptist preacher/church and Pentecostal preacher/church together in fellowship, worship and praise was done ... In fact these two preachers/churches are the same two (i believe) He's assigned me to all these years, and i firmly believe will be instrumental to the welfare of so many souls in the Philly area in lieu of the hardships coming ...i remember when the work got to hard for me and i did my Jonah routine ... i had no rest from my rebellion until i repented and got myself back in line with the specific work prescribed for me to do ... Now that that work is done (for that particular season) i am at complete rest from that end of the work, and am now being prepared for the continuance of His work for me in the new season ...It's the same with The Called finally coming out in publication ... Here's something that has taken 18 years to come to fruition, and yes had i had what it took to rest thru that period in the fact that all things occur (if its of Him) in His perfect timing, i could have saved myself 18 years of fretting, but i didn't ... But i can now say that even in this i am now at rest, and it was in His reconnecting me to the preparedness of publication that i was even able to rest in His shuting my mouth ... i've often said that i could have really done without what you so rightly described as that "inner nagging" - that nagging that Jeremiah described as fire shut up in his bones ... It's a compelling that seems to drive some of us way past the acceptable, and comfortable status quo ... i've often questioned myself as to whether that drive was of me or of God, and have come to believe that it has to be of Him becasue if it was left up to me i'd be chillin like it seems so many other church folk are ...And finally let me say that i don't feel like anythings missing in Christ, but i do have the nagging feeling that a whole lot is missing in Christ Church as far as our representing the Kingdom of God as His ambassadors to this lost and dying world, and i know i can't take credit for placing that nagging in myself ... It's the same as i feel about the souls of my fellow unbeliveing human beings being swept into eternal hell, the burden i feel for this is straight up of the Spirit of God, and anything that i do toward the salvation of the souls of the unsaved is not by my might or power, but of His own thru a not always so willing instrument ... i truly believe that as long as God has His work for me to do i'll never be content in that aspect until i've done what it is that He has for me to do ... And true what you said "I know that if he has something for me, fine, but that is up to him, and he will make it happen the way he wants." ... But for me, being like Jacob, yeah i have the promise, and yes He gave me the vision, and sure nuff He don't need my help to get me there, but scripture says that the Kingdom of God is taken by those with that nagging sensation that there's more, and that He is a rewarder of we that diligently (painstakingly) seek Him ... In my salvation i take Him upon His word that i can rest - and so i do, but when it comes to His work for me i want to keep on scrappin up that mountain until i hear Him say for me to rest "a minute" ... And i believe that as long as i'm down here with His work for me to do, that rest will always be a temporary one, as i know that when He allows us to lay one burden down, that rest period will give us renewed strenght to pick up and even move a heavier one ... i'll rest contented and complete once i get to glory ... Amen

Rahman, Thank you for sharing your own personal journey through times of rest. You brought out the reality that a word, like “rest” can be used in many contexts – and still not be wrong. Clearly CONTEXT is king, and we must keep that in mind in discussion. For instance: You equated “inner nagging” to Jeremiah’s “fire in my bones” – a sense of burden to birth the message implanted within him. I used the words “inner nagging” in a different way, yet both uses are legitimate. I was referring to unsettled business with God – a deep, (likely unconscious) gnawing sense of perpetual guilt and condemnation that drives a person to do things (works) in order to reduce that discomfort. (sometimes called penance) Guilt responses are not of faith, and we know that whatever is not of faith is sin. To be motivated by guilt is an indication that one hasn’t come into full REST in the New Covenant promise of forgiveness through Christ. The root is unbelief, and a desire to be in charge of one's own life (like Adam and Eve). _________________Ironman, there is something about your original question that is still nagging me (there goes another use of the word), so I went back to start over again. You asked: what is it that we are exempt from in this new Testament? IntheLight said: The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strength. I’d like to phrase that more strongly: Trying to fulfill the law in our own strength is a form of rebellion. One is still being ruled by their sin nature. “Whatever is not of faith is sin.” JamesIronman, your question, in itself, seems filled with problems. For if one is truly living the exchanged life – ie Christ through and in him, this question need not be asked. For the Spirit writes God’s laws in our hearts and in our minds (Jer. 31:33) The Spirit guides us to live by laws of love for God and fellow man. However, if the question is asked by someone who is still ruled by their natural flesh, (true of most who ask this) than it is still not going to point them in the right direction. I believe that one reason people may ask this question is because they still don't feel absolved, they carry some hidden nagging guilt. (And they should!) They may be looking for ways to live "right" in their flesh, and win God’s approval. The Old Covenant Law was written for the nation of Israel, not the pagan nations (= gentiles) Even today, the Law is never meant to be a substitute for life in Christ. The NT does not have a category of laws for those who want to live apart from Christ. (Thus your question keeps on being asked - no one can find the answer) I think we waste a lot of breath trying to fit the New Covenant Law of the Spirit into Old Covenant people. It doesn‘t work. We soon end up trying to find some Old Covenant law anyway, and then we just make nicely polished “Christians”. And they'll cling to laws that accomodate their their sinful mindset. So why do we keep helping these people along by giving them formulas for living that will only encourage them to live their lives in their own strength? Now I’ll contradict myself: Those who don’t have a Spirit-ruled inner conscience need rules and laws. Without the Spirit, they need an external source of controls. That would include everyone from birth, because all are sinners. Our society needs laws because the people, for the most part, are without Christ. Yet even if it tries to follow laws in the bible, it will fail to maintain a godly standard. The old nature will eventually produce it's bad fruit. At some point each individual must turn over the reigns to a new master. One either continues to be ruled by the sin nature (and desires laws in order to have control) or one is ruled by our Lord (and doesn’t need external laws to have self-control) Rom. 6:14 “For sin shall not be your master because you are not under law but under grace.”We must ask: Who does this verse refer to? – I mean, really, not ideally. “ Man is a slave to whatever has mastered him.” 2 Pet. 2:19. He is either mastered by the sin nature, or by the Spirit. And that brings us to the right questions: “Who is your master?”And: How do you know? DianePSWhen I think of the “laws” Paul wrote, weren’t they usually directed towards immature believers , ex: the Corithian churches, legalizers, etc

Someone wrote:The only thing we are now exempt from is attempting to fulfill the law in our human strengthThe OT saints could not fulfill the law in their human strenght, nor were they ever expected to. Listen to Psalm 11925 My soul clings to the dust: revive me according to Your word. 26. I have declared my ways, and You answered me; Teach me Your statutes. Make me understand the way of Your precepts; So shall I meditate on Your wonderful works...Remove the way of lying, and grant me Your law graciously...28Listen to where this man know where his help comes from. He knows that he cannot overcome the sin in his life. He asks the Lord to remove it from him. He asks the Lord for understanding. Where does this wisdom come from? Is it not the Holy Spirit?No one was ever expected to keep the law in their own strenght. They were all condemned by the law just like we are today. In ChristJeff

1Kings 10:24 Now all the earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his heart. 5 \tBehold, I was brought forth in iniquity,\tAnd in sin my mother conceived me. 6 \tBehold, You desire truth in the inward parts,\tAnd in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom. 7 \tPurge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;\tWash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. 8 \tMake me hear joy and gladness,\tThat the bones You have broken may rejoice. 9 \tHide Your face from my sins,\tAnd blot out all my iniquities. 10 \tCreate in me a clean heart, O God,\tAnd renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 \tDo not cast me away from Your presence,\tAnd do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 \tRestore to me the joy of Your salvation,\tAnd uphold me by Your generous Spirit. Prov. 2:6 \tFor the LORD gives wisdom;\tFrom His mouth come knowledge and understanding; 7 \tHe stores up sound wisdom for the upright;\tHe is a shield to those who walk uprightly; Prov. 2:10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul, 10 \tWhen wisdom enters your heart,\tAnd knowledge is pleasant to your soul, 11 \tDiscretion will preserve you;\tUnderstanding will keep you, Here are some examples of what God does in men. We say that we need to have the Holy Spirit illuminate the word of God. We say that this illumination gives us understanding. The OT gives us many examples of saints who were also saved in the same way.In ChristJeff

The books of Psalms and Proverbs are part of the OT. Those generations read the Word of God, does not the power of the Word of God have the same power to change their lives as it does those who read His Word now?Who give man the right to cut out sections of the Holy Scripture? Is not the real question, how little do we understand how every jot and tittle fits perfectly. In ChristJeff

Hey brother Jeff! ... Good to see you back ... :-D You wrote:Who give man the right to cut out sections of the Holy Scripture? Is not the real question, how little do we understand how every jot and tittle fits perfectly.Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa-men! ... "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." ... :beard:

Br Rahman wrote:Hey brother Jeff! ... Good to see you back ...Our family will be moving to Lancaster County Pennsylvania in June. That is almost in your neck of the woods. It is also good to hear your Voice. In ChristJeff

very good posts, Rahman & Roadsign ..... we must learn to "be" - before we "do"W. Nee has a great message someone titled "Waste", floating around the Net somewhere ( don't have a link to it off-hand , could be here on sermonindex ) ... that challenges to just "be" before the Lord in His presence ... for the rest of one's life, if that's what He calls you toSignificant that the Lord shut brother Nee up in a Chinese prison for 20 years after he proclaimed that Would we follow the Lord if He leads us "Nowhere" ?

Would we follow the Lord if He leads us "Nowhere" ?It's a good question and reminds one of:Jer 45:5 And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest. With some clarifying, not to take it completely out of context.Jer 45:5 - Seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not,.... Riches and wealth honour and esteem, peace and prosperity; these were not to be sought after and expected, when the whole nation would be involved in such a general calamity. Baruch perhaps expected that his reading the roll to princes would have been a means of preferring him at court, of advancing him to some post or office, in which he might have acquired wealth, and got applause, and lived in peace and plenty all his days; but this was not to be looked for; when, if he observed, the very roll he wrote and read contained in it prophecies of the general ruin of the nation. The Jews restrain this to the gift of prophecy they suppose Baruch sought after, which was not to be enjoyed out of the land of Canaan: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh; not upon every individual person in the world; but upon all the inhabitants of Judea, who should either die by the sword or by famine, or by pestilence, or be carried captive, or be in some distress or another: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest; suggesting that he should be obliged to quit his native place and country, and go from place to place; as he did, after the destruction of Jerusalem, along with the prophet; and even into Egypt with the Jews that went there; where his life would be in danger, and yet should be preserved; he should be snatched as a brand out of the burning, when Jerusalem was taken; and in other places, when exposed, though he should lose everything, yet not his life; which should be as dear to him as a rich spoil taken by the soldier, being a distinguishing mercy.John GillWhere this all might tie together with the original question... Think Rahman touched on it and the word that stands out primarily is;"Fulfilled" Maybe a deeper searching into what all is contained in that would bring forth a closing of the gap in our thinking of what is perceived between the "Old" and the "New". It seems to carry both a sense of completion while yet raising the standard even higher. That of what Jesus stated in regards to the righteousness of the Pharisees ... surpassingPerhaps that is enough for starters, before this sense of my own fleshly thoughts starts creeping in.Something I do feel warranted to bring forth here though. Both Rahman and IRONMAN. Think there was a point of departure and perhaps some animosity between us due to a lot of the discussions over prophesy in the past. It caused some reflection and reassessment, far too much to go into here. But find it very interesting that perhaps we all were made to reflect, being that this is being expressed in various ways, in being "shut up"... hope that is not misconstrued, just in the pulling back ... Bound to get off track so will state it plainly. Missed both of you here and took much to heart out of all that came before. At the time Jim left to go I believe it was to Africa? My prayers went along with him as well, just not vocalized here. Hope it is well with his soul, perhaps an update of how he is fairing? Think there were a lot of things now upon reflection that I would look at differently. For everyone else here, this may mean very little, but to you both I humble myself and thank you for helping me shave off some more of the plank in my own eye. There is just far too much that we cannot glean from where you are sitting. But your hearts still come through.Where will we be able to purchase this work Rahman? How wonderful to know one of our own has developed something into production, I eagerly look forward to it.