Beauty in Roman Catholicism

So should we accept Mormons as "Christians" since they claim they believe in "Christ", even though by their own teachings Christ and Satan are brothers? Catholics may love Christ, but that doesn't negate the fact that they believe that His death at Calvary was insufficient to pay their sin debt. Why else do they continue to "sacrifice" Christ in the eucharist when He died once and for all in order that we may be saved. Why do Catholics believe that they must suffer here on earth or in Purgatory to pay for their sins when the Bible says that our works are as filthy rags? After all, didn't Jesus say "It is finished" on the cross? Is there beauty in Catholicism? Sure, but the harlot has beauty as well.

I took a look at the site and it seems very intriguing. I have to agree that there is a need to slow down, get rid of all the hectic voices within us and around us, and be silent before the Lord. Just like attending church, or any religious activity, this can be either helpful or unhelpful – the difference lies within your own hearts. If you are truly seeking the Lord, he will reveal himself to you, for he has promised to do so. If entering this experience is what you need, then God can open the doors for you to take part. The main thing that I would be concerned about is if the leaders try to take control of your mind, will, and emotions. That is not necessarily a fault of the program but of those who lead it. As you know, that happens in any church – including our evangelical churches. It is always wrong to usurp the place of the Spirit. On the other side of that issue, I must add, that no one can control us unless we let them. That is why we must submit to the Lord first and formost.I agree with you that the RC has many helpful forms of worship that Protestants have tossed out because of fear and prejudice.Here is another thought that has been true for my own life: Sometimes God puts us in unfamiliar territory just to undo some of the patterns, traditions, and viewpoints that we are stuck in. (but don’t realize) That helps us to see things differently, more objectively perhaps. That is why changing denominations can be helpful. Does that help?Diane

Krispy and Tex_Hill, Neil has asked for thoughts on a specific organization and has also included a web link. Why don't you read it and make comments on any aspects of the article that you may be concerned about. That would be more helpful than blanket judgments against the entire denomination. Diane

Neil isn’t asking us to consider the RCC gospel. He is asking us to appreciate specific aspects of their spiritual life and practice. We Protestants may not like mystery…we like our theology to fit together like gear and cogs that tick along like Newton’s laws. This worked great during the past 200 years, but is showing itself insufficient in an age where people no longer have faith in Newtonian physics, and even modern secularism. We sometimes act as if the Gospel is a machine that can be disassembled and explained in a technical manual. Yet 21st century people are wondering if man can know anything from mere apologetics. Not even science is foolproof anymore...this is a new day of opportunity for the Church.So, if we must use phobic words like “mysticism” or “harlot” then let’s do so only for ideas that are heretical to the gospel, not our personal sensibilities. I don’t see any problem for Neil if he finds that reading and listening to the scriptures via the Lectio Divina method fruitful. It sounds like Neil wants to immerse himself in fellowship with the Word, and to bathe in the words of God. "“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you”Personally I feel we place too much emphasis on volume reading…i.e. through the bible in a year and such. I can remember spending months meditating the first few verses in John 1, going over and over them trying to emerge past the text into the reality they contained. Admittedly I could not ever do so but having utterly failed did enable me to see that Christ is both knowable and unknowable.(divine and unsearchable) Within my rediscovery of the enigmatic mystery of Jesus, there is awe and worship of Him. (edit: eternal, non created...)If vital doctrine is not being challenged then I say it sounds like a blessed refuge Neil. We shouldn’t think God’s arm is so short that he can’t reach into the various expressions of Christian faith to touch mankind. Jesus saved even during the dark ages.Christianity is older then the 18th century! If we are only willing to go back as far as Wesley then maybe we are spiritual dandies unable to face the world as it is. We not only have the legacy of the Roman church to dig through, but also the eastern orthodox, the Celtic, and the South American traditions. In a few hundred years, should the Lord tarry, we will have new Christian traditions from southern hemisphere nations and Asia. Are we willing to believe that all of these peoples of different cultual expressions can remain of one Spirit? It’s too bad that the word “ecunemical” has come to mean heretical because Christ is coming back for one Church and they all won’t be Pentacostals.These other church traditions may not have the important sola fide doctrines that we hold to, but they have noble merits in other areas such as spiritual poverty, piety, and devotion that the 21st century American church is in sore need of. We are not wrong in our focus, but we are incomplete in our spectrum…Neil’s post is a welcome recognition that there is more at the table of the Lord then the spiritual hamburgers and milkshakes being marketed by mainstream Christianity.I know much of what I said here can be misconstrued...for what it's worth let me confess my belief that the finest hour for the church (western) was during the reformation, just so you know where my head and heart is. (I'm old school)Yet, I do not think it was the only hour of the church...MC

Hello neilgin1.You are to be commended for your enthusiastic search and understanding of the word of God. It is truly inspiring. May the Lord bless you in your pursuit.But, and I hope you take no offence from this. I believe you are entering a path that is not Biblical. I do believe Annie's warning is real and good. Thomas Merton was the person that is most known in the contemplative prayer circles and if you check out his life you will notice the close connection with eastern mysticism. He was a RCC.I read through the explanation of this kind of prayer-reading-the-word to get closer to God. To engage into this prayer you are required to;1. Silence the mind by focusing on the breath.2. Silence the mind by repetition of a word or phrase etc.3. Silence the mind by focusing on a subject.Further on the imagination also will play a part in this type of activity.By breaking down the scripture you are reading and meditating on it you will not understand the whole meaning but will enter into a mantra relationship with a word instead of a relationship with the Word who became flesh and dwelt with us. Matthew 6:7 tells us not to use vain repetitions and this kind of prayer will surely lead to that.I believe you are entering into something that will lead you away from the God, and His word that you have the desire to know in a deeper way. I believe you also want a subjective experience with God or at least this prayer thing will lead you to that, but do you really know if it is the risen Lord you will meet in these encounters? One of the leading proponents of this kind of prayer is Richard Foster. He says; " I also want to give a word of precaution. In the silent contemplation of God we are entering deeply into the spiritual realm, and there is such a thing as a supernatural guidance that is not divine guidance. While the Bible does not give us a lot of information on the nature of the spiritual world, we do know...there are various orders of the spiritual beings, and some of them are definitely not in cooperation with God and his way! But for now I want to encourage you to learn and practice prayers of protection..."All dark and evil spirits must now leave".Further in the same book there is a warning;"Contemplative prayer is not for the novice. I do not say this for any other form of prayer. All are welcome, regardless of proficiency or expertise, to enter freely into adorationand meditation and intercession and a host of other approaches to prayer. But contemplation is different. While we are equally precious in the eyes of God, we are not all equally ready to listen to "God's speech in his wondrous terrible, gentle, loving, all embracing silence".Prayer:Finding the heart's true home. Richard Foster.Dear Neilgin1.Where do we find this prayer approach in the Bible? You already have an access to the throne of God, don't use an alternative way that will lead you away from God. Heb 9:11 But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation, Heb 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. With lovejouko

Hi Jouko,Is there a possible link between what you are saying and meditation?

Hello ZekeO.Depends on what kind of meditation you are talking about? TM certainly has. I used to have a lot of time waiting for the train going home and there was a lot of TM:s on offer, but for some reason I was never tempted to find out what it represented. I thank the Lord for that. There were times when I felt very lonely, but thinking about those times now, I see that my relationship with the Lord wasn't what it should have been. Being lonely and not having the right relationship with the Lord is a very good place for satan to plant and lead you into something that isn't according to God's will.Meditation means, and this I had to check to understand, I'm a Finn after all;Think deeply or focus one's mind for a period of time, in silence or with the aid of chanting, for religious or spiritual purposes or as a method of relaxation. Then you have; meditate upon which is think deeply or carefully about something, plan mentally; consider.I believe we are talking about emptying one's mind in this context, the contemplative prayer. I can't find that in the Bible. I can find this and more though:Psa 49:3 My mouth shall speak wisdom; And the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding. Psa 119:97 Oh how love I thy law! It is my meditation all the day. Psa 119:99 I have more understanding than all my teachers; For thy testimonies are my meditation. Phi 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honorable, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth. I'm no expert by any imagination. If you would like something to read, visit www.lighthousetrails.com they have some good books by people who have been involved in these types of meditations.Blessingsjouko

Dear Neil I remember periods in my christian walk where there has been a dryness or sense of distance from God, whether due to my own fault or simply God teaching me to walk by faith and not emotion. One thing i must say is that we are vulnerable at those times and satan seizes his advantage to make approaches. Confidence in our own ability or maturity to handle ourselves in his terriority can become our downfall. I must admit i have been attracted many times by the serenity and sense of peace that Catholism seems to express, but unless one "guards their hearts" you can become ensnared, much like people i know who having been in a period of "seacrhing for truth" have rejected the gospel and embraced islam claiming it made more sense to them. Entering into and gaining a closer connection with God will always be by the route of simplicity, obedience and humbleness of Heart "become like a child" brother, and Christ will come to you. Renounce all pride, spiritual and carnal submit to Pastoral counsel lest you be led astray, satan is a master of enticing via good intentions. My continual and daily prayer is "God give me that child like faith, keep me from pride lest i fall, lead me in the way of true brokenness and contrition". Proverbs 30:7-9 Two thing have I required of thee; deny me not before I die: 8 remove from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: 9 Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain.Neilgin1 wrote:I've been looking for a place to go on retreat during what promises to be to be a trying time in my life, starting 7 Oct. There happens to be an AoG "honorBound" retreat, but that just doesn't sing to my heart.What my spirit is really crying out for is a comtemplative monastic sort of retreat, and I was lead to place that looks just what I'm looking for, and it happens to be a Benedictine monastery.The whole point of this post is that I found a paper on "lectio divina".A VERY ANCIENT art, practiced at one time by all Christians, is the technique known as lectio divina - a slow, contemplative praying of the Scriptures which enables the Bible, the Word of God, to become a means of union with God. This ancient practice has been kept alive in the Christian monastic tradition, and is one of the precious treasures of Benedictine monastics and oblates. Together with the Liturgy and daily manual labor, time set aside in a special way for lectio divina enables us to discover in our daily life an underlying spiritual rhythm. Within this rhythm we discover an increasing ability to offer more of ourselves and our relationships to the Father, and to accept the embrace that God is continuously extending to us in the person of his Son Jesus Christ. That just set me on fire, and it happens to be something which originated out of the roman church.let me give you the whole URL:Lectio DivinaMy point of the whole post is this, within the roman church, I'll bet there are more things we can appropriate for worship that point us towards the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and the worship of God......away with popery...yes!! away with the worship of idols...yes!! away with priestcraft and superstition...yes!!But I feel , that their are beautiful elements of communion that we can keep, AND that their are those WITHIN this church, who love Jesus with all their hearts.My spirit tells me if we work overtime to shriek at how apostate and hellbound they are, we play into the hands of the enemy who wishes to divide the WHOLE Bride of Christ. I believe we should love and embrace all brethern who love Jesus.The Lectio Divina is about loving Jesus.

Neil,Several years ago I worked for the US Census Bureau in the field visiting many and/or all the places in any given community. One of these places was what is called locally a monestary. I looked forward to going there, having heard a lot of positive things about it. They offered programs just like you described. I have met people who have been thee and declared it wonderful. Before I went I asked the LORD for discernment when I went there - this having nothing to do with census work, please understand - but with spirituality and their work. Neil, I went there and met the head of their group. And Neil, the place was so COLD, FRIGID. The woman looked at me with hard eyes. There was NOTHING there that spoke of the loving kindness of Jesus, the kind they want to portray to the world. I asked God and he answered. The answer was a loud NO. Just thought I would share my experience and hope it might be a help...ginnyrose

With all the above said, I felt compelled to write re yr original subject.1st, tks for sharing. Many of us understand yr context; sorry the usual RCC baiters and haters used it as a sounding board.LK 11:49 "Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." 50"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." NIV 2nd, as far as any beleiver from the Republic of Texas should be concerned, their big job should be to stop all the murder that is done in the name of cap punishment. At least the RCC has got that right.3rd, Jews are still God's chosen people. And most under His wrath.Lastly, I would say that there is no Scripture that implies that anyone who worships with Roman Catholics cannot possibly be led, or fed, by the Holy Spirit.

I feel that if we merely respond with a knee-jerk reaction, we’ll miss some important and useful insight… which hit close to home. Religious repetition and patterns have always been very appealing and comforting, perhaps because that gives a sense of stability, predictability, and control. Taize, a popular from of worship in the RCC uses simple repetitive chant-like songs. The purpose of this activity, according to Brother Rogers, the founder of the Taize Commumity ( I can’t find the article) is to free the mind of the clutter of life, an get focused on spiritual truths. In itself, that is not a bad idea – we could use help disciplining our minds. Br. Rogers wished to avoid putting any offensive words in the chants. This sensitivity can also have a down side, making us a slave to political correctness and those who are easily offended. I notice that Jesus was not afraid to “offend” people – esp the pride of the religious leaders. He loved them too much to passively allow them to continue in their delusions.Having said all that, I noticed that the charismatic circles have been chanting for some time, though they would likely be offended to hear it labeled as such. They call it Praise and Worship, experiencing the Spirit, having a “touch”, soaking, or whatever other terms. In itself, that can have good aspects to it. However, contemporary music is often used as a medium to work up the mood into an ecstatic state “of worship” through extended repetition. The mind goes passive, supposedly so it can be filled with the Spirit. The worshippers seem spaced out, in a trance, with glazed-over eyes while they are “worshipping”. However, after watching some people who have been practicing this ritual for an extended time, I’m convinced that their religious habits have not benefited their minds. I can’t hold a conversation about anything too deeply spiritual. Through repetitive mindless religious activity, they have lost the ability to think, discern, understand, judge wisely. Church worship, generally speaking, can be put under this same umbrella. A vast majority of Sunday worshipers leave their brains at the door when they walk into the church. They don’t want to think, just feel good. They don't question what should be questioned. There has always been heavy criticism directed towards any form of worship that is not one’s own preference – old or new, protestant, or RC, charismatic, or traditional… But the bottom line is this: Each participant must think for himself. He must not sell out his mind. Even a Scripture reading is meaningless if he doesn’t actively meditate on it himself and take it to heart. So, the responsibility rests on the worshipper. The great spiritual thinkers of the past, ex Thomas a Kempis, Brother Lawrence, St Francis of Assisi, etc did not passively submit to the religious trends of their day, even though they may have remained in it. They used their MINDS, and as a result they had something of immense value to offer to countless generations. Their writings transcend any denominational boundaries. Diane

Amen, Lahry.God BlessNellie :-)