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Question concerning pierced ears

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InTheLight Sep 14, 2005

My 9 year old daughter came to my wife and I recently wanting to get her ears pierced. My wife and I have had different responses to this request.I am against the idea, in the light of 1 Tim 2:9, I don't feel that this adornment is really necessary in any ear let alone that of a 9 year girl. Now I don't think that if you wear an earing you're going to hell but I find modest apparel is good and desireable in the sight of God. Personally, I wear modest clothing myself (my wife would call me 'challenged' when it comes to fashion) and the only thing I wear beside clothing is my gold wedding band which I don't consider adornment but rather a symbol that I am one with my wife and it also reminds me of my union with Christ.When i asked my daughter why she wanted this, her response was , "cuz my friends have earings". This didn't seem to be a convincing argument to me.My wife is in favor of the piercing saying, "she just wants to fit in." Again, not a convincing argument to me. Can't my daughter 'fit in' without pierced ears?Well, my daughters response was to call me "mean". My wife's response was to declare me closed-minded and unwilling to admit I'm ever wrong.I would like to hear some input from you good people on this matter. Am I being closed-minded and mean?In Christ,Ron

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roadsign Sep 14, 2005

There is a phrase that goes like this: Choose your battles. Your use of scipture to justify your preferences will end up as being sensed as a controlling measure. And you may loose the heart of your daughter. There are things that are worth fighting for, but areas of fashion, hair style, need to be treaded carefully. Far too many children/teens have been lost to the world, through rebellion, over unnecessary battles related to fashion. Maybe it would be best to leave that issue between your wife and your daughter, since it is a lady thing. It also shows that you respect your wife, including her choices. That helps your daughter develop a positive sense of identity as a female - very important - esp in teenaged years. Maybe they could negotiate some acceptable standards for earing syles. Maybe your daughter could earn her right to have her ears peirced, or be requried to wait till her birthday. That way she learns about delayed gratification.She needs to know your love for her more than anything. Adoring her, valuing her, and respecting her growing maturity will do much more than having an overly heavy hand. Kids end up copying how their parents live, far more than just what they say. So as you die to the praises and criticisms of man, she will eventually learn that what others think of her is not too important. For now, she's not there yet. PS In some cultures they pierce the ears of their baby girls. Diane

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InTheLight Sep 14, 2005

Thanks Diane for your reply. Perhaps this is a hill I don't need to die on.Concerning the application of Scripture being construed as controlling, I don't think this should prevent us from quoting the Bible when asked for a reason for our position. I never use Scritpure as a means of control however I feel it is very important that we demonstrate before our children the importance of God's word in everyday life.In Christ,Ron

sermonindex Sep 14, 2005

InTheLight saidNow I don't think that if you wear an earing you're going to hell but I find modest apparel is good and desireable in the sight of God. roadsign saidThere are things that are worth fighting for, but areas of fashion, hair style, need to be treaded carefully. Far too many children/teens have been lost to the world, through rebellion, over unnecessary battles related to fashion. You might find this response slightly long and rambling but it's here for you to consider with what everyone else thinks too.Only a couple of days ago, my son (young adult) who now has several piercings in his ears, was asking the legal position of a 16 year old lad, who had gone ahead and got what's known as a 'snake bite', a ring piercing on each side of his lower lip. He still lives at home and his father is about to throw him out, with all sorts of bad names on his character, if he doesn't take the rings out. The problem is they are new - they need time - and, they would really hurt to take in and out at this point - in fact, even when they are old, will easily seal up again. This also happens to some people's ear piercings (seal up again) if they don't keep a ring or sleeper of some sort.When my daughter first asked for pierced ears, I was already decided I would make her wait till 12. As she would need my written permission until she was 16, she thought the better of making a big deal out of it, and just settled down to the wait. My brother-in-law, asked the same question by my niece, chose 16 - but his daughter picked a moment when he was very tired (the daughter of two psychologists!) to repeat her question, and got a reduction to 12 out of him.When I was six, my mother was very keen for me to get my ears pierced but I was not interested in looking like the natives amongst whom we lived at the time. In fact, she wanted mine pierced because she had wanted hers pierced when she was a child. Also, she was envious of the native children where we lived, who, as roadsign mentioned, get their ears pierced at a very early age.Another friend with two daughters, made both of them wait till they were 16, but after a year, the one who had been the most insistent, stopped wearing her earrings, and my friend concluded it was a phase - but I think she wears them again now.In fact, both this friend and myself have (this year) had our ears pierced. We live 400 miles apart and only discovered this during a phonecall. Having both given our children such a hard time, we had to laugh.....I think, with regard to fashion, there is one main question, to do with how much it would affect your testimony. In some cultures, it would be really unheard of, for the women not to wear earrings, but in not all of them, would Christians discourage this in new converts.On the other hand, I was asked by a new Chinese Christian in Glasgow once, why I was wearing a pendant (stone on a chain) round my neck, if I was a Christian. This is because in his culture, one of the signs of belief in Christ, is to have nothing round your neck. Everyone else (in his culture) is laden with 'lucky' charms and other objects intended to keep them safe from evil spirits.Personally, I do think 9 is young. I also think 9 is old enough for your daughter to take some personal responsibility for pleasing God, or, for acknowledging that she has been born into a Christian family and that brings with it certain constraints.I'll give you another strange cultural difference which is nothing to do with ears. My daughter commented one day, when she was 14 that she goes to school with people whose parents keep alcopops in the fridge and expect them to help themselves, but would never expect them to take a bus anywhere. Whereas I would never keep alcohol in the fridge and wouldn't let her drink it if I did, but I did expect her to take a bus if one was running to where she was going.My brother, you have to work this one out with your wife and the Lord. It does really matter how you do it though, so as to bring your daughter on board. Convincing your wife might be the harder part. Your daughter will want to please you, I think, even if you have to explain much more than you'd like, of the reasons for protecting her from looking too grown-up for her age. This is a good age to explain a lot of things, so take your time and use the opportunity to open a dialogue and definitely have the next 5 years in mind. She's a child now, but, by the end of 5 years, you will be looking at a young woman who at the beginning of the last century would have been putting on high heels and make-up to go to work. She needs your hugs and will still need them then. Don't fall out over this one.

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roadsign Sep 14, 2005

Concerning the application of Scripture being construed as controlling, I don't think this should prevent us from quoting the Bible when asked for a reason for our position.I agree, as long the Spirit of the word is applied.I know a mom, from a Brethren background, who made her daughters wear head coverings in church because Scripture said to do that. No other females in the church did that, but the girls always obeyed their mom. However, when the daughters left home, they still focused on the outer apperance - only then they went along with the peers of the world. That is the risk of focusing on the outer man. Sometimes the inner man (conscience) doesn't develop well, because it's always relied on someone else's choices for them. Our culture is so complex and topsi-turvi. We sure need the Spirit to help us know how to apply the Word, and teach it in a way that will encourage a healthy development of character. I know that God will guide you in this matter as you seek him. In so doing, you will reflect the heart of the heavenly Father in your relationship with your daughter. And she will feel very secure and loved as a result. And that will make far more impact on her than any final decision about earrings. Diane

sermonindex Sep 14, 2005

Well, if I could chime in.My ears have been peirced for 40 yr.s so I'm not against anyone with pierced ears or modest earings.I know some can say that it's "Babylonian" or have even heard some folks calling it and 'make-up' like "Jezebel". That sort of hurts feelings, because as long as it's done in moderation and not like some TV evangelist's wives, where it looks like well.... never mind.But I think the number One point here is the wording in your post.YOU feel it's wrong, and felt for her age and because it was just to "fit in" and "go along with the crowd", then that is justified reason to say ... Wo.YOU are the High-Priest in the house and one reason I had said months ago now, that I wouldn't be a Moderator is (though I was one, on one of the Discernment ministry's forums and gave it up ....) because WOMAN SHOULD NOT TEACH OR USURP AUTHORITY OVER MEN.It was on one of Krispy's threads, where I said, I wasn't "chiming in" on that thread because of that. Us ladies need to walk the "fine line" of knowing when we're usurping authority and teaching or just sharing our opinion and exhorting for right and wrong, or going over the edge. And that I still find it hard to judge sometimes and I still make mistakes in the "fine line" there.You are the head of your home, as Christ is over the Church .... and a book I read called "Me, Obey Him ?" was the best I've read for submission of wives.I highly recommend it to even unmarried females, so that they are "not acting" like Jezebel, in that the sin of Jezebel in the Warning to The Churche in Revelations, was about Woman Usurping Over Men with Non-Biblical Council, etc.As she did with her husband. So that when a man comes on here and gets advice from 'woman' ... then he's submitting to woman again. But you know all'a this already anyways. Men need to rule their home with Christ only or go to other Biblical men for council for their home. The Home is where the relationship of Christ and the Church is played out, as you already know.I think dorcas said it right and just her last paragragh alone said it well .... it's your call brother and don't fear whatever your first reaction was, because you DO have it right.Her age, the "just to fit in part", etc., is a point that could be asked, "When do we do things, just because 'other's are' ?"It is "your call", and as long as a man is LOVING, then he needn't fear his authority.He prays first and then decides, but that must stand, because Fathers represent God to children, and we don't fight with God, once He's said No.Just my thoughts from what I've read.Peace & Love to your home and all of ours.

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Gery Sep 14, 2005

Dear Ron,It is surprising that there are still fathers who care for their children so much that you go through the trouble to find counsel on this issue. I honestly believe that most Christian fathers nowadays do their utmost in order to "keep the peace" no matter what the cost. As a husband/father, you are responsible for both your wife and your daughter's souls. You alone will stand before the Lord one day. Here are some verses of greatest importance. Take these to heart. May our Dear Lord and Savior help you."But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God" (1Co 11:3)"And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" (Eph 6:4)"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts." (Zec 4:6) In His love,Gery

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roadsign Sep 14, 2005

You are the head of your home, as Christ is over the Church .... and a book I read called "Me, Obey Him ?" was the best I've read for submission of wives.I read the book when I first got married, and thought it was the greatest thing on earth. I wanted to have that kind of a marriage. There was a sense of security in believing that as long as I obeyed every command my husband gave, I would be approved by God. It was great. I wouldn't have to take responsibility for any decisions. But the book denies the role of the Spirit in the wife's life. (remember in the Spirit, they are equal) It keeps her in a child-like state of dependency. It leaves no room for mutual accountability. The man has a free reign. (I have a problem with the example of the mother passively allowing her husband to beat her kids. The rational sounded good, but I don't think it is a good formula) A family therapist once said that one of the most damaging parental styles is where the parents do not agree - have different views on discipline. I can relate, as I was always the stricter parent. The kids knew that, and always got their way with their father ( very permissive ). What a challenge. I don't think that it matters which gender is which way, it doesn't work. The kids then simply choose the one they prefer to follow. Perhaps my own past experiences has caused me to see the importance of being able to bend. Sometimes what feels very wrong to our conscience is not necessary sin in itself. It's the way we have been programmed. Therefore each parent must seek God for insight. There is no simple formula answer, and at times there seems to be no anwer at all. (I must add, that my faith has grown as I have been watching God work beyond all our human limitations.) DianeEditWhen i asked my daughter why she wanted this, her response was , "cuz my friends have earings". This didn't seem to be a convincing argument to me.I agree with you here. She needs to think about it some more, and see that she really hasn't given it enough though. This is not a reason for her to make choices in her life. Through your interactions with her she may discover that she has a freedom to make choices APART from her peers. They don't have to determine her choices.

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philologos Sep 14, 2005

Hi RonDid you mention whether your daughter has her own faith?

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ellie Sep 14, 2005

Hi'everyone.I have a daughter who is now adult.My answer to her was no.She grew older and I think it was when she was 17years old and not wanting to go against respect of me, she eventually, under a little peer pressure, have them pierced. As she got much older, she ditched the earrings.9 years old, I would say no. She is too young, she is a mere child. Take, a look at the children in general, at school or when you are shopping. You will more often than not, find the children do not have earrings. She is trying you out, ‘your mean’, that is a power over your decision and she knows that there are times, even as she plays with children, that these words will get her what she wants. And good communication between child and parent is needed.Sometimes you have to take their mind off what it is they want because they ‘WANT’ many things. Expecting there, never to be a no.You need to think carefully, as to how you put the ’ no’ to her. I told my daughter on one occasion that when she was 16 she could choose. And giving it a day or so and then maybe think of some treat or other. To, reward her for listening.It is better if children do not say words like ‘you are mean’ is not respectful.Respect in a family, is a shared thing.Take a look on the Internet for evidence that, ear rings in pierced ears can cause damage and also cause damage to the ears in accidents and also poison to some. One imparticular that can cause pain for the rest of their life. There is no cure. I believe it disfigures.People are not told of the risks.Children need their childhood, as a child. This then differentiates each progressive stage, in a their growth in life. This does create firm stable foundations, by growing through these areas of life, into adult hood. Good communication with children and parents.Help them to be able to deal with, adult life as they grow up.Baby, toddler, infant, junior, senior, early teens 13yrs, later teens 16 to 18, young adult 18 to 20yrs, their are then further maturing years. Maturing years never end, we are always learning.I know the problems this can bring, and you would have to work hard with it, if she were upset through peer pressure. Lots of talk and understanding all things concerning what she ask you for as she grows up.Peer pressure will never end and the cost in finance to parents will be astronomical. It all starts in the very young when they do not really understand all things pertaining to what they ask for.They will wind you up, if there is no authority from the parents.So, what I am saying is be careful, how she gets what she wants at any age.P.S.I would not like to see my Grandaughter get pierced ears.PRAYER lots of it Amen.ellie

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Gery Sep 14, 2005

Dear Diane,"Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit", saith the LORD of hosts.(Zec 4:6) And thanks for sharing.In His love,Gery

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Gery Sep 14, 2005

Dear Ellie,Thanks for what you have just shared. In His love,Gery

sermonindex Sep 14, 2005

Quote: "(I have a problem with the example of the mother passively allowing her husband to beat her kids. The rational sounded good, but I don't think it is a good formula)"Oh my diane, you didn't get that out of that book, did you ? "Beat" ?Gery gave the verse that the man IS 'over' the wife ... and how my husband and I do it, is as that book says.I believe God leads woman quite a bit, and so does my husband, BUT, when it come to decision making ... I give my thoughts, but before GOD, the ultimate decision has to fall to my husband.I don't Rule our house. I give what I feel God is telling me, and my husband has to be the final decision maker .... and as that book says, "if he's wrong, the consequences of his wrong decision falls on him" ... and another interesting thing that book said, is even if your husband is unsaved ... God will use him to protect and even speak through him, and our submission could lead to his conversion (by our good 'conversation' they're converted).This woman's lib thing, came into the Church back in the 70's, where they took Eph 5:21 which was written to THE CHURCH and 'canceled out' 5:22 with it, which Paul was going on to the Next (different) Topic of husbands & wives.That is when and where this teaching came into the Church, and I saw it destroy homes when it did. I witnessed the propagation of that new teaching in my own Church back then, (the consesus theory) and it was actually nauseating how "macho" the woman became.The ultimate responsibility for decision making falls on the husband, and if you search it out, God will judge men that give in to their wives if they don't "really" agree with their wive's thoughts. Heavy duty stuff.Equality is not between husband in wife in the sense of 'final' decision making.One of the curses on Eve, was that she/woman would basically always try to 'lord it over men.'And another Last Days prophecy says, "And woman will rule over you."So that equality thing has to be kept Biblical.Before God, men and woman are Equal, but in authority etc. as Paul said to Timothy, we are not to teach or usurp authority over men, and "wives 'are' to submit to their husbands", but as that book also said .... but not to "sin", if your husband tells you to .... that book was clear on that.I'm pretty out-spoken for a female and love sharing God's Word, but I have to really watch that I am not teaching or usurping authority over men, because I do have a "Not so docile nature", that was actually given me by God, because BEFORE I met my husband, I was very docile and he helped me with that.Then when I was saved a few years, and the Lord started using me, etc. blah, blah, I went from "Little Much Afraid" to almost a "Deborah" ... talk about transformation :-? .I also believe in female prophets, but if you remember, Deborah told what's his name, that he was "wrong" for making her do the job that "he", as the man, should have done. :-( "Me, Obey Him ?" is still the best book I've ever read on this issue, along with The Word.There is an "answer" (as you said, "at times there seems to be no anwer at all.")God said, if any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God ...... And also His Word, never contradicts itself. Blessings.Annie

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Gery Sep 14, 2005

Dear GrannieAnnieWhat a mouthful ! What a blessing, thank you.Just to mention this: since my wive and I has obeyed the Lord's Word concerning our positions in marraige, it has become a union and blessing as never before. I now have a deep love also for her soul. I find myself praying for her more earnestly and it is as if I am watching over her as a precious jewel.Oh, how great the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.Husbands, pray for your wifes. Nothing that will last is done without prayer. We can change them only through our prayers and obedience. The shortest way to her heart is through prayer, and God longs much more for her to make you her desire, than you can ever imagine!In His great love,Gery...but, by His Spirit!

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InTheLight Sep 14, 2005

I thought I would express some further concerns I have about a child wearing earrings. To some this may seem like a little issue but I'm not sure it is. I believe that our society has convinced our women that beauty comes from without. It seems to me that by slapping some earrings on my 9 year old daughter and then saying, "oh my, don't you look pretty." that I would be reinforcing this corrupted value system of outward beauty that the world holds. At her age it seems more appropriate to instill in her the biblical values that all people are beautiful and have value because they are made in the image of God, and true beauty is in holiness.Did you mention whether your daughter has her own faith?If you mean has she received Christ and been born of God, then the answer is 'no'. She has said "the prayer" but I see no 'fruit'. The same for my wife. Please pray for them if the Lord leads you.In Christ,Ron

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ellie Sep 14, 2005

I believe you got it in one there, you are write I knew what you saying before but could put into words so i chose another wayBut now I can digest what you have writtenYour wife and your daughter will be prayed for. Holy Spirit come upon them, release there minds and hearts from the ways of the world. Bring forth your love Jesus and pour it out upon them ,that they would know your presence, in their lives.God have Mercy upon them all And by your Grace may all this family be yours. Amen.Hallelua, Praise, God.ellie.

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Gery Sep 14, 2005

Dear Ron,May our Lord pour out His love into your heart, and give you His wisdom and descernment for His sake. AmenIn HimGery"...but, by His Power"

sermonindex Sep 15, 2005

Amen to Ellie and Gery's prayers and we also will keep you all in prayer brother.God Bless you richly.

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philologos Sep 15, 2005

RonI do share with you the pain of seeing children robbed of their childhood. I wonder if you could talk to her along the lines of 'sweetheart, I really want something like this to be your decision and not that of the group'. Perhaps to share with her that 'growing up' is all about making your own decisions for the right reasons. 'when I became a man, I put away childish things'. Maturity is taking personal responsibility for our lives and not allowing anything or anyone else to shape them. I know this last sentence would be far too heavy for your daughter at this time, but she may well be able to get the sense if you have the 'link'.In the OT setting there was nothing inappropriate about such things. It seems that earrings and nose jewels were very much part of their culture. I have to plead stupidity here; I cannot begin to understand why someone would want to pierce or tattoo their bodies. However, I know that these little steps are often seen as signs of 'growing up' and as such are very important to young people. To be without such 'signs' is then to be on the outside of the herd; a lonely place for growing youngsters.I recall a old preacher saying that God only commanded what was perfect but sometimes allowed what was not. It is an interesting distinction that sometimes has its place for the head of the family too.God bless you and your family.

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philologos Sep 15, 2005

AnnieOne of the curses on Eve, was that she/woman would basically always try to 'lord it over men.' Can you explain this?

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