Is asking Jesus for anything Sin?

As I promised in my previous post "The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil" here is a look at something that comes out of the TRINITY debate:Why do Christians pray and ask Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and/or the Father? In order to justify this, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit must not only be God, but must also be equal or one and the same. The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are God, not many Christians will argue this, even though some do. I believe that they are. Many teach that the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are co-equal. My NASB study Bible does. I believe that this is incorrect. There is enough Biblical evidence to prove that the Father is not co-equal to the Son. I have written enough about this on my website that I will not repeat myself here. The great difficulty that the TRINITY debate has brought to the Church of Jesus Christ is division. As people in my present church and in previous churches have pointed out, sometimes full of exasperation: this has been debated for years, who are you to argue? Good point, or maybe not. Who are we? Are we as mankind with our finite minds able to understand God? Can we with certainty prove one way or the other? We must be certain if we can declare that it is quite alright to pray and ask Jesus or the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus Himself told us NOT too. Frankly it boggles my mind how man can make declarations about the Godhead that are contrary to Scripture. If there are passages that cast even a shadow of doubt on other passages, maybe it would be advisable to just obey what Jesus told us to do, rather than to establish our doctrinal stand on only one Scripture while disregarding the other.In John 16, Jesus teaches His disciples about prayer for when He has left them “in that day,” that is, after He will have ascended to be with the Father. This is after He has already taught them the Lord’s Prayer on an earlier occasion. When He taught them the Lord’s Prayer he used verbs of which the mood is imperative. This means: you must say, or you must pray. Most of us know that we address the Father in the Lord’s Prayer. In John 16:23 Jesus tells His disciples and I think us too, that “in that day,” when He is with the Father, to ask Him nothing or no question. He tells them - and us - to ask the Father IN MY NAME; He repeats this in verse 24, and again in verse 26. Paul, in Ephesians 1:15-17 asks that the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will give the (a) Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him to the Ephesian Christians. This is a reference to Isaiah 11:1,2. Nowhere in the entire Bible are we told to, or given permission to, or even asked to pray to the Holy Spirit. Not even to worship Him. We are however certainly told to ask the Father in Jesus’ name, even for the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:13). Why do so many of us not do this; why do we disobey?..."fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith"...(Hebrews 12:2a)I can quote a number of Scriptures where we are told to obey all that Jesus taught and commanded us. The Bible tells us that if we don’t, we sin.If we as the Church could only agree on this point alone, wouldn’t it do something to improve the unity of the Body?Is asking Jesus for anything sin? You answer it for yourself, I already have.In His Love,Hans PrangThat they may be made perfect as one (John 17:23)The Father's Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net

Is asking Jesus for anything sin? You answer it for yourself, I already have.Though your intent is nothing short of well meaning Hans, this seems to be just as dangerous as you proposed with... "rather than to establish our doctrinal stand on only one Scripture while disregarding the other."Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. Joh 14:14 - If ye shall ask me anything in my name (ean ti aitēsēte me en tōi onomati mou). Condition of third class with ean and first aorist active subjunctive of aiteō. The use of me (me) here is supported by Aleph B 33 Vulgate Syriac Peshitta. Just this phrase does not occur elsewhere in John and seems awkward, but see Joh_16:23. If it is genuine, as seems likely, here is direct prayer to Jesus taught as we see it practiced by Stephen in Act_7:59; and in Rev_22:20.Robertson's Word Pictures~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~in my name, either calling upon it, he being equally the object of prayer with the Father, or making mention of it, pleading the merits of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; whatever was according to the will of God, was for his glory, and their real good, he would do it for them, as well when absent from them, as present with them.John Gill~~~~~~~~~Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. There is a point where this stretches credulity brother, it is not a sin to ask Jesus for anything. If you read carefully what you have stated here, there is an emphasis on praying and asking and you are proposing we should do neither to Jesus, to the Holy Spirit...We must be certain if we can declare that it is quite alright to pray and ask Jesus or the Holy Spirit, even though Jesus Himself told us NOT too. Frankly it boggles my mind how man can make declarations about the Godhead that are contrary to Scripture. If there are passages that cast even a shadow of doubt on other passages, maybe it would be advisable to just obey what Jesus told us to do, rather than to establish our doctrinal stand on only one Scripture while disregarding the other.The Lord most certainly told us to ask. This is not a matter of building up a 'doctrine', think about the last part of your quote there, about disregarding the other.Something else to consider here, relating to Acts 7:59; 7:59 - Calling upon Godhe word God is not in the original, and should not have been in the translation. It is in none of the ancient mss. or versions. It should have been rendered, “They stoned Stephen, invoking, or calling upon, and saying, Lord Jesus,” etc. That is, he was engaged “in prayer” to the Lord Jesus. The word is used to express “prayer” in the following, among other places: 2Co_1:23, “I call God to witness”; 1Pe_1:17, “And if ye call on the Father,” etc.; Act_2:21, “whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord,” etc.; Act_9:14; Act_22:16; Rom_10:12-14. This was, therefore, an act of worship; a solemn invocation of the Lord Jesus, in the most interesting circumstances in which a man can be placed - in his dying moments. And this shows that it is right to worship the Lord Jesus, and to pray to him. For if Stephen was inspired, it settles the question. The example of an inspired man in such circumstances is a safe and correct example. If it should be said that the inspiration of Stephen cannot be made out, yet the inspiration of Luke, who has recorded it, will not be called into question. Then the following circumstances show that he, an inspired man, regarded it as right, and as a proper example to be followed:(1)\tHe has recorded it without the slightest expression of an opinion that it was improper. On the contrary, there is every evidence that he regarded the conduct of Stephen in this case as right and praiseworthy. There is, therefore, this attestation to its propriety.(2)\tthe Spirit who inspired Luke knew what use would be made of this case. He knew that it would be used as an example, and as an evidence that it was right to worship the Lord Jesus. It is one of the cases which has been used to perpetuate the worship of the Lord Jesus in every age. If it was wrong, it is inconceivable that it should be recorded without some expression of disapprobation.(3)\tthe case is strikingly similar to that recorded in Joh_20:28, where Thomas offered worship to the Lord Jesus “as his God,” without reproof. If Thomas did it in the presence of the Saviour without reproof, it was right. If Stephen did it without any expression of disapprobation from the inspired historian, it was right.(4)\tthese examples were used to encourage Christians and Christian martyrs to offer homage to Jesus Christ. Thus, Pliny, writing to the Emperor Trajan, and giving an account of the Christians in Bithynia, says that they were accustomed to meet and “sing hymns to Christ as to God” (Latriner).(5)\tit is worthy of remark that Stephen, in his death, offered the same act of homage to Christ that Christ himself did to the Father when he died, Luk_23:46. From all these considerations, it follows that the Lord Jesus is a proper object of worship; that in most solemn circumstances it is right to call upon him, to worship him, and to commit our dearest interests to his hands. If this may be done, he is divine.Receive my spirit - That is, receive it to thyself; take it to thine abode in heaven. Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Check the passages mentioned throughout there as well, brother again, don't think your intent is wrong in the slightest, but nor is it a necessary statement you are making.

Hia (I like that) Annie,We don’t differ of opinion, trust me. I don’t for one moment believe that Jesus and the Father are the same. I do realize that some of my statements may give a wrong impression, so I will rephrase some of what I wrote that led to the quote: “The Father exalted Jesus and gave Him a name above every other name. Is it possible that God the Father gave Jesus His own name, Eternal Father?”Thank you for that input. The objective of what I am trying to say is that we can debate the Trinity for another 2000 years, and still not come up with the right answer, because we are not the infinite God and have only finite minds. Hence Jesus’ command to obey all HE taught us, and not what WE try to justify with different Scriptures.Joshua: I am writing another article on the “subjection” of Jesus to the Father, after His last enemy has been destroyed, so that the Father will reign over all. 1 Cor. 15:22-28; Rev. 10:7 and Rev. 11:15-17. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (1Cor.15:28). If Jesus is co-equal to the Father, why will He be subjected to the Father?Thank you both for your response, God bless you,In His LoveHans PrangThat they may be made perfect in one (John 17:23)The Father’s Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net

Hi Mike,Thank you for your response and comments. I have all the commentaries you quoted and others. I have discussed this subject with a number of pastors and ministry leaders. These discussions included all the points you quoted and even more. I have studied this and prayed about this since I lost my job in the spring of 2001. I want to respond to you, but I need some time.Thanks again and God bless you,Hans Prang

The word pray means 'ask.' The Bible says 'ask and ye shall receive.' Many people asked things of Jesus, and Jesus granted them. They prayed to Jesus for things, and got them. When Peter began to sink in the water, He said 'Lord, save me.' Jesus in return 'stretched forth his hand, and caught him.'Jesus forgave the man's sins who was lowered through the roof. Then healed the man as well. Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 is foretold to be 'The mighty God, The everlasting Father.' Jesus also said, 'I and my Father are one.' I know that some of the Scriptures don't speak of the Holy Ghost like they do of Christ. How we should pray "in" the Holy Ghost and not "to" the Holy Ghost. I don't think it is heresy if someone's says 'Spirit, fall afresh on me.' I do think that the Scriptures make this distinction, because the Holy Ghost is in us, while the Father and the Son are in heaven. So it is the Holy Ghost giving us the urge to pray to God in heaven, but the Holy Ghost is still God.So it is sort of like God reaching His hand down and touching your heart to pray to Him. Yet He doesn't want you to pray to His arm, but to Him, though the arm of God is still 100% God.

Dear brothers and sisters,I thank you for the opportunity to share more and bringing me to my knees. I am very much humbled. I have read some of your threads on this forum and through them seen the love you have for our Lord. I become also more and more aware of the fact how easy one can read material of someone, and not being able to directly interact, get the wrong impression. I am not frustrated; if I give that impression, please forgive me. I am saddened and driven to prayer for the Church daily, asking the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ for unity in the Body of Christ.What I write I don’t do lightly, for the consequences of teaching error or leading anyone astray, i.e. away from our Lord, are very grave. This is the reason I asked for time to respond to brother Mike and through this, to all of you. The question I asked through title of this thread is: Is asking Jesus for anything Sin? This is a deep question with a great number of consequences if addressed correctly. I purposely didn’t say: is praying to Jesus sin, because it isn’t. Prayer is worship, we are to worship Jesus. Psalm 2 is very clear in verse 12 when the imperative statement is made: Kiss the Son (KJV), or Pay homage to the Son (NASB). It is clear in the context of the Psalm that this is Jesus Christ, the Son of the Lord. If we don’t pay homage, He will become angry and we will perish. The most difficult passage with respect to “asking,” is John 14:14. This passage is translated differently in today’s Bibles. The KJV states: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do (it), and others such as the NASB: "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do (it). This Scripture is one of the most difficult ones in light of the title of this thread and John 16:23: And in that day ye shall ask me nothing (KJV), "In that day you will not question Me about anything (NASB). I have read a number of commentaries and explanations and it doesn’t matter how long and how hard you study this, there is always someone who has a deeper and better understanding of languages, manuscripts, etc., etc. As I have written before, I have discussed this with pastors of different denominations and the like (those that were willing to, many weren’t). Some were very honest when they said: you have easy talking, I have a family to feed, or, this is my job, or, this denomination’s doctrines agree the most with what I believe.Do we not realize that if we as Christians would interpret the Bible the same way that we would be one IN THE SPIRIT. One with the Father, One with the Son, and, One with one another through the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Do we also not realize that this would eliminate the need for denominations? The leader of a para-church organization said to me: “Do you know what you are asking? That would be the end of our ministry!”This is the reason why I started my previous thread: The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8b). Paul states it very plainly in Epehsians 6:11,12. He refers to the wiles or schemes (methodeia) of the Devil. The Greek word methodeia may also be translated as: trickery, cunning arts, deceit, etc. The armor that we are to wear includes the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. As long as Satan is able to make us disagree with one another, he will have succeeded. It is with the Word that Jesus defeated Satan; we have to use the same. If we don’t agree, Satan has rendered us ineffective.I don’t want to make this post too long, since some of my young friends tell me that anything long will not be read by them. Please bear with me; I will address the Trinity further in another post on this thread shortly.In His Love,Hans PrangThat they may be made perfect in one (John 17:23)The Father’s Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net

In this post I will share what I have gleaned from the Scriptures to support my understanding of the Trinity.I took God at His Word when in the spring of 2001, I disregarded as much as possible by His grace alone, my denominational preferences and turned to: ‘Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. ‘You will seek Me and find (Me) when you search for Me with all your heart. ‘I will be found by you,’ declares the LORD… (Jer.29:12-14). I reasoned that if I believed God for the promise of eternal life, I also had to believe that He would reveal Himself to me when He knew that my motives for my seeking Him were pure.There are a number of issues that can be discussed from 1Cor.15:22-28. For the purpose of the issue that “the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are co-equal,” I will as much as possible attempt to stick to this one topic only. I will quote passages taken directly from 1Cor.15 from the NASB95. “then comes the end, when He [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.” It is evident from this passage that He (Jesus) will hand the kingdom to God the Father. “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.” In this passage it clearly states that the Son Himself will be subjected to God the Father. “Subjected,” the Greek word “hupotasso” means: submit to one’s control, be subordinate to.“but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets” (Rev.10:7). The mystery of God in this context refers to: “then (comes) the end, when He [Jesus] hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.” This becomes clearer when we read what happens “when the seventh angel is about to sound.”“Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign” (Rev.11:15-17). This passage tells us that when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, the Lord God (the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) begins to reign, although I can see that someone may argue that “the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ,” implies that both Jesus and the Father have ownership of the kingdom, but the quoted passage ends with the Lord God Almighty has begun to reign.In light of these Scriptures, it is impossible to say that Jesus is the same as, or co-equal with the Father, except for a period of time during the Church Age when the Father: “…He raised Him [Jesus] from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church” (Eph.1:20-22). This is were the equality of all believers, or oneness of the Church, comes in with Jesus and the Father, when we read: “and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus” (Eph.2:6,7). This is what Jesus asked the Father for in John 17.Then there is still the issue of the Holy Spirit and His role and equality with the Father and the Son.I will wait to see if this post gives rise to more comments or questions before I post the next item.God bless you abundantly,In His Love,Hans PrangThat they may be made perfect in one (John 17:23).The Father’s Final Callwww.thefinalcall.net

Hans,First I would like to say that I do appreciate and agree with your comments about being willing to forget everything people have taught you in light of trying to understand Scripture by personal Spirit-guided reading. I also appreciate your unity of the body of Christ comments. I believe that God's holy people should unite, also.Anyway, concerning the trinity, remember that 'no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.' We must put together all verses on a subject to get a doctrine. Scriptire does speak of Jesus handing the kingdom over to the Father, and it is obvious Jesus was often obediant to the Father during His entire life.However, Jesus also taught in John 10:30 that "I and my Father are one." So in other words, Jesus has always been, and always will be, as well as the Holy Ghost. All other things were created (earth, angels, us, etc). Jesus' very name implies that He would save us from our sins, so this was the plan of God before the creation. So Jesus' mission was to seek and save that which was lost even before the creation. So he left heaven to do this. Therefore, He was God's servant, doing God's will, and yet still God. There is no simple way to explain the trinity, but all three are 100% God, and yet Jesus is obediant to the Father, as the Holy Ghost is obediant to Jesus. I mentioned in another thread how the Holy Ghost was like God's arm. Still God, but the part of God directing you toward the Father using the arm. Jesus was God put into a human being. Like a king and a prince.When an earthly king dies, and the prince becomes the king, the father did not lose his stature, it passed on. But when God is put into a prince, the Prince of Peace is not like an earthly prince, in that he is still obediant to the Father, but only because he was also 100% flesh. Jesus was not exalted to sit at the right hand of God, until the flesh He embodied fulfilled all the prophesies. Obviously he was given that stature when He sat down at Father's right hand. When a heavenly King has a Son, he passes on rule, and still keeps it, because He will never die. So they rule side by side, but one is still Prince, and one the Fatherly King, but both still God. Jesus was not created, but was the aspect of God that came to ransom His creation.Those who overcome, will also be heirs with Christ, and shall obtain part of the same inheritance. This does not change the fact the we are not God, and that both the Father and Jesus still are. So my take is that Jesus is obediant because He was the part of God that became a missionary directly sent to earth, and probably so that we could never look at God and say, 'he doesn't know what it is like to be human.' That's one reason Jesus is the judge, become His becoming flesh put Him in a position of obediance to the Father, but also made him our peer so that He could judge us, just like in civil court (a jury of peers).

Dear Letsgetbusy, Annie, and all other brothers and sisters in the Lord,I agree 100% with Letsgetbusy. It was never my intention to take away from my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to Whom I have committed myself to go where ever His Spirit leads me. All I meant with the “co-equal” discussion is that: “the Father is greater than I” (Jesus’ own words); the Father commanded Jesus, and the Father is the head of Christ. How I wish I could speak to you face to face. This whole thread came as the result of a very strong personal conviction (which I believe to be from God) and of something that someone wrote as response to an earlier post I wrote, regarding prayer for others, i.e. standing-in-the-gap, and unity in prayer. This thread was meant to bring us here:Jesus Christ, our God and Savior, died on the cross in order that His God and our God (John 20:17) could reconcile us to Himself, His Father and our Father (2Cor.5:19 and John 20:17).I understand that when the veil in the temple tore from top to bottom, at the time that Jesus yielded up His Spirit (Matt.27:50,51), He opened the way for us to enter the Holy Place by His blood (Heb.10:19,20). God has sent the Spirit of His Son, the Spirit of adoption, by which we cry out Abba! Father! (Rom.8:14-17 and Gal.4:4-7). We, by Jesus’ blood are granted to come before the very throne of the Father, and call Him Father. This is the point of this thread:Do we acknowledge the incredible sacrifice of our Lord and Savior, by which He fulfilled the requirements of His Father, so we could again come in His presence, when we continue to ask Jesus, and not use the PRIZE He so sacrificially paid by His blood? Do we follow the example of all the apostles in the New Testament, who always addressed the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ? Where in the Bible are we ever told to ask the Holy Spirit directly? My last questions: Is it wrong or less effective to ask the Father through Jesus Christ the Son than to ask Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit directly? If its is not wrong to ask the Father through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, led by His Spirit, would it not bring some more unity to the Body, if we did? Do we, through all this consider the Holiness of the Godhead.Annie. I appreciate you very much. It hurts very much when one has spoken the Word of God to elderly people, and they died not accepting because the one speaking isn’t a priest of a certain church. It is extremely exiting when someone asks you when they are over 90 years old and have gone to church their entire life: Why do I have to be born again? My wife and I are also palliative care volunteers. It is so amazing to ask the Father to give us an open door with someone who is on the threshold of eternity and who has been deceived their entire life. My wife has been given the opportunity by our Lord on several occasions to pray with someone like that. Praise God.

LUP,I hear your question, and I have pondered the same thing. Since Scripture seems to put Jesus in service to, but yet in equality with, the Father...Phil 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"...I will continue to pray to the Lord Jesus Christ, until I read a Scripture that tells me not to.Jesus always prayed to the Father, but here is the question: Who else would He pray to? Jesus had to pray to the Father. On the other hand, many, many, people in Scripture prayed to Jesus, and He never corrected them. So I would say you are not losing out to pray to the Son versus the Father. I pray to both. They are seated side by side.