Understanding Katrina and Rita...

Ha! ... Ha! ... Bro. Krisp let me shimmy on out on this limb with you man! ... :-P You wrote;"Could these hurricanes blasting America where it hurts most... oil refineries... be God's judgment on not just the debauchery of a single city or region, but on the nation as a whole?"This is my take on the matter, and what i say here is my own personal beliefs so i'll not be arguing with anyone about whether it's God or global warming ... i think even in attempting to decipher God's judgment folk strain at gnats (see regional sin - if they're capable of seeing sin at all) and swallow camels (can't see our national sins) ... These hurricanes have wreaked first hand destruction regionally, but nationally we have not even yet began to feel the pain ... Yeah we feel it at the pump so far, but most folks in my area might be complaining about gas prices but they're still running their auto's AC ... What most common ery'day folk ain't seeing is what was spelled out some time ago in the thread:Info on America's Precarious Economy (Audio) ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4586&forum=35#33749The once so called good life in the good ole US of A folks, is about to come crashing down just as the towers did ... And as Dr. Bates (christian economist) likes to point out, wealth won't disappear but it is about to be redistributed ... Many today to caught up in the gimmie more to appreciate what they have, will soon long for what they didn't appreciate ... Our entire economy (if it can truly be called that) is based on the continual shuffling of debt packages called derivatives, it's a giant shell game that can't afford any interuption to this shuffling in the form of loan defaults (not paying on time) ... Most Americans can't even get their "self" pre-occupied heads wrapped around how many loan defaults have occured in the wake of Katrina, and now comes Rita ... Like the towers our economy is at the slow burn, and we all know what happens next!i was thinking the other night what i heard God say in my spirit at the beginning of 2001 concerning these so called natural disasters, that they would come bigger and with escalating frequency, and that the subsequent social unrest will be catastrophic ... Look at what happened with the criminal element in New Orleans, and the anarchy satan launched with his crew ... Now imagine that multiplied in the wake of further disasters, with dwindling tax revenues, less law enforcement, and government bailouts ...Yeah LA., NY, Vegas, New Orleans, etc. may be sin laden hot spots, but we as a nation, have slaughtered millions of the unborn as "contraceptive afterthought) via it's condoning by our very government itself ... In my mind the cost of this national, governmentally condoned sin is enough to finally cause God's hand of correction against us ... Scripture says that governments are put into place by God Himself, and that a good one is a blessing to the people in that it exacts fair and moral laws of protection ... In fact Scripture calls governments His servants ... Well it stands to my reasoning that if His governmental servant begins to enact laws like first (slavery - which ended in that bloody Civil War), and now (abortion - which i think is the main reason we as a nation is in deep do-do now), can you imagine what governmentally legalized/sanctioned gay-unions would do to our nation's already (obvious to this saint) overflowing vat of His stored up wrath ... It seems to me that God is using whatever natural phenomena we've come to expect (which is why the debate as to is it Him or not) in certain geographical areas to make His points of displeasure ... So the mid-west seems to be prone to tornadoes, the Gulf to hurricanes, and the West coast to earthquakes (which i sense in my spirit is gonna rock the east coat too) ... i just wonder how much it's gonna take to make most of us sit up and take notice that "God is trying to tell us something" ...By my estimation God's hand of correction takes a long time, and i've personally believe that for the world (in particularly Europe) the beginning of sorrows began with WWI ... And i do agree with you that i think this nation America, who in our debauched blindness still profess His name, has in fact brought ourselves to His awful grace of discipline ... But what i see good coming out of this is a re-active repentance that will cause the mother of all revivals, the mother of all harvests of souls, the seperation of the true of Christ Jesus from the false, and the refining of His Church to our capability of being caught up to Himself ... Soon, and very soon, it will be all about His work!PS - You also said this;"What about the hurricane that leveled Galveston TX in 1900? 10's of thousands of people died in that one (no one really knows how many exactly). How do we interpret that one?"Has it been 105 years between these two hurricanes? ... Anyhow your comment also reminded me of this past thread ...Those crazy Puritans, that crazy Dave Wilkerson, and crazy me ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=3957&forum=35&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0My first reaction, especially to the kinds of devestation we've all witnessed in the past four years, is that of the Puritans ... Repentance, and "What Lord"?... :beard:

i wasn't gonna post the following, but it's in line with brother Krisp's thread ... i have to admit that i find the direction the Body of Christ is taking in reaction to these disasters so fulfilling and satisfying in the direction of representing Christ and His kingdom here on earth ... USA - The 'SORROWS' BEGIN? - by Andrew StromI write this as an outsider who loves the USA. I am a New Zealander now living in the United States - currently involved in the relief effort in Mississippi. The destruction here is an eye-opener for sure.But something is amiss in this country - something so serious - that the loudest warnings from above are seemingly falling ondeaf ears. For the last 250 years, from a christian perspective,America has been one of the greatest "Lands of Revivals" that there has ever been. Since 1741, America has seen more GreatAwakenings than any other nation. It wouldn't be hard to make the case that America is the most "Revived" nation in history.Yet that has begun to change. America has grown rich, and has forgotten God. She has turned away from the very one who blessed her in the first place. And lately it seems like no matter how loudly God shouts at her to turn around, she is too preoccupied to listen. Things are about to get pretty rough here.As I write this, yet another category 4 or 5 hurricane is bearing down on the Texas coast. If it hits the oil-refining region belowHouston, it could have a catastrophic effect. Either way, it isdifficult to see how the nation can keep absorbing these massive shocks. The human tragedy is indescribable.Four years ago, God sent the first of these wake-up calls to this nation. All he had to do was lift his hand of protection foran instant. After 9-11, America did get somewhat "religious" fora season, but this has since worn off. There was no permanentrepentance. Comfort, entertainment, and materialism still rule the land, and God alone knows what it will take to change that.The size of the shocks that are necessary - only He can tell.What will it take for America to repent - to turn back to the God of her fathers?9-11 didn't do it. The four hurricanes criss-crossing Florida last year didn't do it. And hurricane Katrina destroying the casinos, the oil, and the "Southern Decadence" city of New Orleans didn't do it either. The mayor was back there withinweeks, urging them to gear up for the next debauchery parade,known as Mardi Gras. Throwing it in the very face of God. These people have learned nothing. And thus, the wake-up calls will continue. But what about the church? Is she blameless in all this?I have a friend here who believes that America is about to become a third world country - all because she will not repent.The process is already underway. This is but the "beginning ofsorrows." Because of the new hurricane, I will likely head across to Texas with a load of supplies and tools on my way home thisweekend - they may need it more than Mississippi before long.Rick Walth, a revival preacher from Iowa, is due to take over thebase here. He is an excellent brother. Meanwhile, Darren Smith of "Streetscape" is now coordinating efforts for BOTH disaster zones - the one here and the one due in Texas.Please keep us in your prayers, my friends. By the way, we needMORE PEOPLE to come down and help. We have an excellent base here, and many needy people (and there will likely be one in Texas also). Please phone me if you can make it down - (985) 788-9939. Please pray for Texas, my friends. Pray for mercy in the midst ofjudgment.God bless you all,Kindest regards in Christ,Andrew Strom.--To subscribe, send a "subscribe" email to- prophetic@revivalschool.comOR send *ANY* email to- anzac-subscribe@welovegod.orgTo unsubscribe, send ANY message to: anzac-unsubscribe@welovegod.orgVISIT OUR SITES ON THE NET:REVIVAL SUPERSITE - http://www.revivalschool.comPROPHETIC SUPERSITE - http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/index2.htmlMODERATOR:Andrew Strom,PO Box 9852,Kansas City,MO 64134,USA.

Brother Krispy,I guess that makes two of us that agree on this issue. America has and is continuing to push God out while letting sin in all its filth infiltrate society and we wonder why these hurricanes or any other disasters happen. I agree God is loving and caring but God is also a God of Judgement and Wrath.

I believe this hurricane to simply be another manifestation of what God is attempting to do with our nation. As I've been preaching since Katrina, I believe God has His hand on our nation and is attempting to shake our nation and wake us up from our sleep. He has placed His hand on us as attempting to shake us out of our slumber. Our economy will continue to be hurt, storms will continue to rage, and we will yet again go to war. Wakeup!

Perhaps this huuricane is about judgement. This does raise a question though...what were all these hurricanes about? Hurricanes since Galveston 1900Some were less powerful hurricanes...some were more powerful. (Camille reached 200 mph before it hit land in 1969.) Last year Ivan entered the gulf, spawned 100 tornadoes untill it reached the eastern coast, slid back down to Florida, crossed over into the gulf and hit land again! In 1938 a hurricane of immense proportions hit the northeast states, a part of the world once thought immune to such horrific forces. The mood of our nation then was low too; emerging from one great tragedy, the Depression, and about to enter an even darker period as Hitler began his rise to power. I have come to see Katrina as a cat 4 hurricane made catasphrophic by cat 3 levee engineering and below sea-level urban planning. It was another serious tropical cyclone untill it was amplified into the worst disaster in US history by our own incompetence.I'm not saying with certainty whether Rita is judgement or not. (I agree that we, as a nation, are spiritualy sliding.) I am saying it's important to put Katrina and Rita in historic perspective. These days are hard, but we are not the only generation that has experienced national catastrophic tragedy. Blessings guys,MC

Hi brother Mike ...Since the sunami, and especially after Katrina, my phone has been burning up with folk trying to come to some closure on what's occuring now ... They already know my take, and some phone to fish for some type of a compromise in reasoning between what i believe/have said and what they're thinking ...i've told many a saint that in my flesh i often times wish that i could get past this gnawing belief that God is in fact escalating correction to us, by being able to take all the obvious data into account and find some logically based solace in many of the facts that you've mentioned ... But i can't - and that's my bottom line ... Pure logic does in fact seem to cancel out God having any direct hand in these catastrophies ... So as i, and most folk who know me, already know, when it comes to such events, especially as things stand now, i'm just incapable of being logical ... The basis for my being so illogical is my fear of God, the same basis that the much more unlearned, and far less scientific Putitans operated out of ...So the question in analogy for me is "Is it live (God), or is it Memorex (Natural occurences exascerbated by human stupidity) ... i hear "live"! (exacerbated by human stupidity and unrepentant rebelliousness) ... i'm a cautious, safety conscious nut by nature, and so my faith/fear tells me that it's far better for me to be right in the first explanation at the expense of my humiliation by those who believe the latter, than for me to be wrong in the logic of the latter at the expense of my humiliation by God Himself ...

Brother Krisp you wrote;"To me, they are the ones we need to worry about the most."i understand where you're coming from, and in turn hope that you can understand my point of reference ... Matt.10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. The things that are so rapidly happening now are not causing me worry, or concern, in that i know my/our lives are in His hands ... He knows the beginning of our earthly existence, our journey, and just how each of us will end ...He began at the beginning of 2001 dropping things in my spirit about where we as a nation, and a church, are headed ... In fact He had me proclaim it, which is why now folk are seeking me out soon after the point of Him shuting my mouth and preparing me for the next phase - The revival/harvest phase ... It's one thing to hear God say escalating devestation is coming, but to actually see the end result of such occurences - especially on ones home turf - well it's just gut wrenching ... But still the live/Memorex debate goes on amongst His saints, and the outright rebellion continues of the likes of those who've decided they're gonna party-hearty any how - come hell or high water (pun intended) ...Your comment has also called to mind these soothing scriptures of comfort ...John.142Thes.2Phil.4Heb. 10

Was Katrina Intelligent Design?September 2, 2005 — Sermons EditionBy John PiperPermanent Link Editor's Note: For resources on responding to Hurricane Katrina, see the "Today at DG" section on the Desiring God homepage. On his 89th birthday (August 31) NPR Senior News Analyst, Daniel Schorr, observed that President Bush had “staked out a non-position” on the debate between evolution and intelligent design. Bush had said that “both sides ought to be properly taught in the schools of America.” Then, with manifest scorn, Schorr linked the devastation of Hurricane Katrina with the concept of intelligent design: “[Bush] might well have reflected that, if this was the result of intelligent design, then the designer has something to answer for.”No, Mr. Schorr, you have something to answer for, not God. God answers to no man. Come, Daniel Schorr, take your place with Job and answer your Maker: “The Lord answered Job [and Daniel Schorr] out of the whirlwind and said: ‘Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for actionlike a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. . . . Who shut in the sea with doors when it burst out from the womb, when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band, and prescribed limits for it and set bars and doors, and said, “Thus far shall you come, and no farther, and here shall your proud waves be stayed”?’” (Job 38:1-3, 8-11).Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Shall the pot say to the Potter, “This is an unintelligent way to show your justice and your power? Come, Maker of heaven and earth, sit at my feet—I have lived 89 years and have gotten much wisdom—and I will teach you—the eternal God—how to govern the universe”?No. Rather let us put our hands on our mouths and weep both for the perishing and for ourselves who will soon follow. Whatever judgment has fallen, it is we who deserve it—all of us. And whatever mercy is mingled with judgment in New Orleans neither we nor they deserve. God sent Jesus Christ into the world to save sinners. He did not suffer massive shame and pain because Americans are pretty good people. The magnitude of Christ’s suffering is owing to how deeply we deserve Katrina—all of us. Our guilt in the face of Katrina is not that we can’t see the intelligence in God’s design, but that we can’t see arrogance in our own heart. God will always be guilty of high crimes for those who think they’ve never committed any. But God commits no crimes when he brings famine, flood, and pestilence on the earth. “Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?” (Amos 3:6). The answer of the prophet is no. God’s own testimony is the same: “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things” (Isaiah 45:7). And if we ask, is there intelligent design in it all, the Bible answers: “You meant evil . . . but God meant it [designed it] for good” (Genesis 50:20).This will always be ludicrous to those who put the life of man above the glory of God. Until our hearts are broken, not just for the life-destroying misery of human pain, but for the God-insulting rebellion of human sin, we will not see intelligent design in the way God mingles mercy and judgment in this world. But for those who bow before God’s sovereign grace and say, “From him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever,” they are able to affirm, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Romans 11:36, 33). And wisdom is another name for intelligent design. No, Daniel Schorr, God does not answer to us. We answer to him. And we have only one answer: “Guilty as charged.” Every mouth is stopped and the whole world is accountable before God. There is only one hope to escape the flood of God’s wrath. It is not the levee of human virtue but the high ground called Calvary. All brokenhearted looters and news analysts and pastors are welcome there.

Amen Krisp ... i totally feel you on that one ... The most disturbing thing to me as a father and grand father is watching all the pictures of the missing children from Katrina ...it's funny that you should mention the children because i started to include this as a part of my last post ... In the small (warning) ministry that i've had thus far i remember one night crying out to our Lord in desperation my major concern for my 9 grands, and my little niece and nephew ... i began saying to our Lord, "Lord ain't nobody trying to hear about a need for mass repentance, and this otherwise doom and gloom message you've given me ... In fact Lord, nobody seems to believe it - but Lord i believe You - And if it be Your will, for the sake of my children (meaning my grands, niece and nephew -for my children are 34, 32 & 30), will you honor my faith with your divine favor, by enabling me to keep them from having to face the harsh brunt of total need?" ... Then i kinda stuck in there that scripture that says "it's a good man that leaves a legacy to his children's children" ... That's the Jacob in me ...But you're more than right on that one bro ... "What kind of fathers would we be"? ... From now on i will be sure to include your children in with my prayer request for my own ... As two patriarchs seeking to please Christ, let's touch and agree in our faith in Him to rest in His will for our little ones ... Amen

Pure logic does in fact seem to cancel out God having any direct hand in these catastrophies ...Rahman,I guess I wasn't thinking that you were illogical...I just wanted to bring up the simple fact that hurricanes are not uncommon during hurricane season.In any case, it seems the true source of your concern is not a reaction to events happening...but of some internal conviction or unction you are sensing. I certainly have no argument against that...especially when your aim is for people to become serious about their walks with God!Bless you brother.MC

Brother Mike you wrote;"I guess I wasn't thinking that you were illogical...I just wanted to bring up the simple fact that hurricanes are not uncommon in hurricane season."i understand where you're coming from, and i know you weren't trying to say i'm illogical ... Actually you, or anybody else doesn't have to, because i have my moments where i try my best to tell myself how illogical i am in reference to this topic ... i've actually stood in front of my bathroom mirror and verbally said out loud, "Dude, you need to snap out of this!" ...But what you said here is a real blessing to me, and totally answers why i can't shake this burden ... You said;"it seems the true source of your concern is not a reaction to events happening...but of some internal conviction or unction you are sensing. I certainly have no argument against that...especially when your aim is for people to become serious about their walks with God!"Eureka! brother Mike ... That's it!God Bless you too brother ... God bless us all!

Christ's disciples asked Jesus, who sinned that this man was born blind?Setting Christ's answer aside for a moment, the question was asked because his Jewish disciples believed (as was the common thinking at the time) that -any- sort of calamity was, in fact, a judgment from God. If you were born blind, it was God's judgment. If you came down from Galilee to sacrifice at the temple and Pilates Soldiers killed you at the altar - it was God's judgment. If you were in Siloam minding your own business when a stone tower collapsed upon you - it was God's judgement. That is what the Jews thought.Christ's explained that this man's blindness wasn't a judgment.That rocked their little world.Christ went on - the slaughter at the altar, the tower in Siloam - these things didn't happen because these men were worse sinners...That there is the key.The people in New Orleans are not worse sinners than any one of us, the calamity that has fallen upon them is this - they died - and we will all face a similar calamity, so it behooves us to repent - that is, to settle with the judge as we are being taken to the court.I don't deny that the calamity might be a judgment against your nation, or even against the city of New Orleans itself (especially considering the biblical precident set at Sodom and Gomorrah!) But I do not pretend that the people in New Orleans are worse sinners or more numerous than those found anywhere else in America. Frankly God could rain fire and brimstone down on any and every city in North America - and be fully justified in doing it - for all have sinned.Whatever God's intention was (Naham 1:3 - God has his way in the whirlwind and in the storm), it certainly is significant that "Katrina" comes from a Greek word that means to "make pure" ...Just my thoughts.Dan/\\/\\/\\

Setting Christ's answer aside for a moment, the question was asked because his Jewish disciples believed (as was the common thinking at the time) that -any- sort of calamity was, in fact, a judgment from God. If you were born blind, it was God's judgment. If you came down from Galilee to sacrifice at the temple and Pilates Soldiers killed you at the altar - it was God's judgment. If you were in Siloam minding your own business when a stone tower collapsed upon you - it was God's judgement. That is what the Jews thought.Indeed, they tended to think such. Such was and is a common view for about any thing bad that goes wrong. Job's "friends" had bought into an entire retribution theology as well, that viewed all calamity as judgment for sin. Though because we live in a fallen world as a result of Adam's sin, such has a hint of truth to it- though is a bit naive to think such, for as Job pointed out to them, and as the Lord also said, the rain falls on the just and unjust alike.We also must seriously heed the Lord's words in Luke regarding the tower of Siloam and the the mixing of Jews blood with the sacrifices, and consider condemning others out of a sense of self-righteousness- which is the point of the entire story/teaching regarding these things. Indeed, there are probably much worse cities out there than New Oreleans, and some of us might be worse than many of them and much more deserving of God's wrath. So we should heed, consider, and repent just as the Lord said, lest something worse comes upon us. Also for that matter, many probably think of New Orleans sins as primarily sexual, and see a great parallel between them and Sodom. However, there are worse sins than homosexuality. It is interesting to see that the prophet Ezekiel didn't condemn Sodom for homosexuality, but rather, for having an easy-going-life with many people who were wealthy, but also a lot of people who were poor and neglected by the wealthy. Was this not indeed the case in "The Big Easy?" Jesus said the weigthier matters of the law are justice, mercy, and faithfullness. Hmm.... I didn't see homoexuality on that list. Remember, homosexuality is not the only sin in the OT called an abomination. Indeed, an unjust scale is likewise called an abomination! Are you just? That is, are you fair? Do you treat your children with favoritism? Are you selfish? Do you look the other way in matters when it is in your advantage to do so?Are you merciful? That is, do you treat others just the opposite as they deserve? When everybody else is ready to stone another person for their transgression, are you willing to show them compassion and mercy? Remember, it is the merciful who shall receive mercy. There are homosexuals and prostitutes going into the kingdom before the unmerciful. Sadly, many "righteous" people because they are full of an unmerciful spirit wouldn't dare help those who are are in the "icky" sins, and thus will shut them out of the kingdom of heaven with them e.g. the parable of the Good Samaritan.Are you faithful? When you say something, does that seal the deal, or do you need a team of lawyers to write out a contract for you? Are you constantly late for work? Are you untrustworthy because of great inconsistancy? Jesus said these matters are the more important things, and are much graver sins than homosexuality. Repent, or you will all likewise parish!

There has been a time of sorrows in the Last months there has been hurricane katrina , the london bombin g, this hurricane but should not we repent first.uke 13: 1 - 35 - Study This Chapter 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners F35 above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. 7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? 8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: 9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.